15/08/17 Waterloo derailment and disruption (latter likely to continue to 16/8)

[SpacePhoenix]

Doesn't really matter whether the points are needed to get a train in/out of a T3 or not because we won't necessarily know where trains will be entering or exiting when a possession is taken. When a train turns up to enter the possession the signal will be passed at danger anyway so you'd set the points according to the route card (with the PICOP's permission if you're moving points within the possession as people could be working on them for all I know) and you're done! As soon as the PICOP confirms the train is clear and the protection has been replaced you'd replace your points back into the position to protect the possession. (There's a lot more to it than that but that's the simple version ref points!)

We have "reminder appliances" yes - these take different forms depending on what kind of signalling system is in use (VDU/panel/lever frame etc...) For a panel (which Wimbledon SCC is) they're plastic 'caps' that go over the route buttons/point switches that physically stop you pushing them and setting routes or swinging points. For a VDU system (computer based) they work in exactly the same way but they are software based.

What's PICOP short for? Person In Charge Of Possession?

 

[contrad!ction]

What's PICOP short for? Person In Charge Of Possession?

Yep! For completeness, you also have ES's (engineering supervisors) that are in charge of particular worksites within the possession.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Yep! For completeness, you also have ES's (engineering supervisors) that are in charge of particular worksites within the possession.

How do COSSs (Controller Of Site Safety) fit in with PICOPs and ESs for large possessions like at the Waterloo site?

 

[hwl]

Surely that depends if the points are also needed to get trains in and out of the possession. May or may not be the case here, I don't know. As has been discussed in the main thread about the blockade, the number of platforms and routes varies day to day, and possibly changes overnight.

Post #54 is also relevant, as to flank locking (which I think means diverting an oncoming train to prevent a side swipe at a set of points).

Signallers must have a local means of inhibiting use of certain routes, some sort of reminder system?

Hence the barrier train to occupy the track circuits???

 

[contrad!ction]

How do COSSs (Controller Of Site Safety) fit in with PICOPs and ESs for large possessions like at the Waterloo site?

COSSs are in charge of individual bits of work within a worksite. The hierarchy works, in very simple terms, like this:

Signaller protects the line and gives signal protection to the PICOP, the PICOP then instructs his blockmen ("possession support" in modern parlance) to go out and place their protection consisting of 3 dets and a possession limit board (PLB) at each line on the end of the possession and clear of any junction that leads into the possession.

Once the PICOP has got confirmation from all his blockmen that all protection is placed he then contacts the signaller to get the possession granted.

Once the possession is granted by the signaller the PICOP then authorises each ES to set up their worksite within the possession. They go and place worksite marker board at the limits of said worksite and once this is done they can ask the PICOP for authority to start work. The ES can then brief each COSS working within the worksite. Each COSS working is recorded on the ES's form, and each ES working is recorded on the PICOP's form.

The ES is in charge of train movements within his/her worksite, the PICOP is in charge of train movements between worksites or ones that are in the process of entering/leaving the possession, in conjunction with the controlling signaller.

To give up the possession the reverse of the above happens (mostly). Each COSS signs out with the ES, once every COSS has signed out the ES asks permission from the PICOP to remove their worksite marker boards, they then remove the boards and sign out with the PICOP. Once each ES has signed out the PICOP then arranges for his blockmen to remove the protection and gives up the possession with the signaller.

All of the above is made more complex by current isolations (taken between the PICOP and the electrical control operator at the beginning and end of the possession), train movements in/out/within the possession, multiple signallers/signal boxes/panels (the PICOP will contact all of them and repeat the above process - sort of...), intermediate signal boxes that the PICOP doesn't contact that the signallers at the end of the possession need to get signal protection from etc etc...

Large possessions can easily have 5+ signallers involved, with tens of ESs.

 

[HowardGWR]

I notice Exeter services are being diverted to Reading. This is 'new to me'. Do 159 drivers sign to Reading from Basingstoke, or will they be piloted?

It's a sensible move, as most pax are for London or Gatwick.

 

[swt_passenger]

I notice Exeter services are being diverted to Reading. This is 'new to me'. Do 159 drivers sign to Reading from Basingstoke, or will they be piloted?

One of the West of England line services (usually the shorter distance stopping services from Salisbury) has been running to Reading on weekdays anyway as planned, and from what I saw last week they are piloted (possibly be a FOC driver) and have a second guard for route knowledge.

Is it one of these you have seen, or are they now running both trains each hour to Reading? If the latter it at would show there must be some spare capacity, but of course it might not run all day...

 

[AverageTD]

1. I thought that there were 8 tracks going into Waterloo

2. Does this mean even later delays, since the works there have been fast trains to Waterloo from Twickenham, Richmomd, Putney every 15mins and you could aim for a train and get the delayed one that was before so it may be even worse.

3. Which lines are affected. Is it the Mainline, Mainline Suburban or Richmond Branch?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

NRE now saying that the disruption will last until the end of service tomorrow (16th August)

 

[louis97]

Pictures on Twitter and ITN look pretty conclusive to this layman. Putting 2 and 2 together (and possibly getting 5) it looks very much like the points were wrong and the 456 was directed into an already occupied line getting lifted off the track as a result by the pressure from the Network Rail train.

I can only imagine the horrors of driving that. The BBC reports it as 'low speed' however as I'd assume is normal in the station throat.

As I read it, nothing to do with the works directly unless it's a points issue down to the unusual usage pattern of the station at the moment.

Edit: And now I'm catching myself jumping to early conclusions which is something that annoys me in others so my apologies if I'm leaping ahead too far and fast.

It was reported early on internally that points the train was travelling over may have spread below the train causing it to derail and come into contact with the engineering train. Certainly would make sense for that to be the case.

 

[GW43125]

1. I thought that there were 8 tracks going into Waterloo

2. Does this mean even later delays, since the works there have been fast trains to Waterloo from Twickenham, Richmomd, Putney every 15mins and you could aim for a train and get the delayed one that was before so it may be even worse.

3. Which lines are affected. Is it the Mainline, Mainline Suburban or Richmond Branch?

1) 4 of them are already shut
2) a lot of the stoppers are cancelled
3) everything's late.

2Vxx and 2Rxx cancelled UFN.

 

[swt_passenger]

1. I thought that there were 8 tracks going into Waterloo

There are but, as most people are already aware, during the blockade there is a gradual reduction to only four as Waterloo is approached.

Despite all the media emphasis on the number of closed platforms (which usually ignores the temporarily opened international platforms) the real capacity limitation is the reduced number of approach tracks.

 

[carriageline]

This is a lot, lot more than a set of points not being 'locked' in a certain position.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LAX54]

Code black been declared yet?

Quite a few hours ago

 

[66701GBRF]

This is a lot, lot more than a set of points not being 'locked' in a certain position.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Several people on the ground have been d&a tested I gather...

 

[theironroad]

COSSs are in charge of individual bits of work within a worksite. The hierarchy works, in very simple terms, like this:

Signaller protects the line and gives signal protection to the PICOP, the PICOP then instructs his blockmen ("possession support" in modern parlance) to go out and place their protection consisting of 3 dets and a possession limit board (PLB) at each line on the end of the possession and clear of any junction that leads into the possession.

Once the PICOP has got confirmation from all his blockmen that all protection is placed he then contacts the signaller to get the possession granted.

Once the possession is granted by the signaller the PICOP then authorises each ES to set up their worksite within the possession. They go and place worksite marker board at the limits of said worksite and once this is done they can ask the PICOP for authority to start work. The ES can then brief each COSS working within the worksite. Each COSS working is recorded on the ES's form, and each ES working is recorded on the PICOP's form.

The ES is in charge of train movements within his/her worksite, the PICOP is in charge of train movements between worksites or ones that are in the process of entering/leaving the possession, in conjunction with the controlling signaller.

To give up the possession the reverse of the above happens (mostly). Each COSS signs out with the ES, once every COSS has signed out the ES asks permission from the PICOP to remove their worksite marker boards, they then remove the boards and sign out with the PICOP. Once each ES has signed out the PICOP then arranges for his blockmen to remove the protection and gives up the possession with the signaller.

All of the above is made more complex by current isolations (taken between the PICOP and the electrical control operator at the beginning and end of the possession), train movements in/out/within the possession, multiple signallers/signal boxes/panels (the PICOP will contact all of them and repeat the above process - sort of...), intermediate signal boxes that the PICOP doesn't contact that the signallers at the end of the possession need to get signal protection from etc etc...

Large possessions can easily have 5+ signallers involved, with tens of ESs.

Thanks. Very informative.

 

[bb21]

One of the West of England line services (usually the shorter distance stopping services from Salisbury) has been running to Reading on weekdays anyway as planned, and from what I saw last week they are piloted (possibly be a FOC driver) and have a second guard for route knowledge.

Is it one of these you have seen, or are they now running both trains each hour to Reading? If the latter it at would show there must be some spare capacity, but of course it might not run all day...

All WoE services running to Reading where crew knowledge allows.

 

[swt_passenger]

All WoE services running to Reading where crew knowledge allows.

Interesting. Any sign that they've altered anything to make room for them? People often say there isn't much spare capacity along there...

 

[gavin]

Platforms 1 to 13 are out of use at Waterloo delays until the end of tomorrow (16/08)

Passengers are advised not to travel into London

 

[Sunset route]

Where a set of points could route a train into a engineering possession, should the points be locked in the direction that avoids the possession to avoid a train accidentally being routed into the possession area?

Looking at a diagram for those points the a and b ends on the open road and need to be in use and the c end is inside the possession so that end would have either been disconnected or restricted for the works while the other ends remain in use which could at times involve them laying towards the possession, but the only signalled routes would involve them being set away from the possession.

 

[HowardGWR]

One of the West of England line services (usually the shorter distance stopping services from Salisbury) has been running to Reading on weekdays anyway as planned, and from what I saw last week they are piloted (possibly be a FOC driver) and have a second guard for route knowledge.

Is it one of these you have seen, or are they now running both trains each hour to Reading? If the latter it at would show there must be some spare capacity, but of course it might not run all day...

I'm just going by the SWT web site announcement and looking at RTT, I see that the service does not exactly seem to be 'up and running' yet. Indeed one eastbound train seems to have terminated at Basingstoke at about 0925 IIRC, which frankly would be sensible, as the shuttle to Reading left 10 minutes later at 0936.

I suppose it depends how easily a 159 can be turned around at Reading or Basingstoke and whether the shuttle does the job anyway, instead. I'll keep watching RTT later on, as I find the idea interesting. Indeed, getting a service to Gatwick from Reading would be much preferable for an East Devon passenger (say) to changing at CLJ, but of course costs more at present.

 

[High Dyke]

I thought all the engineering works are meant to fix everything? Like the signals/points issue last week!

Previous experience would suggest that isn't always the case...but the blame goes down to "teething troubles of new equipment". Even if that 'new equipment' is in use elsewhere without much trouble.

Back to the topic though. That's made a mess of the paintwork/vinyls on the 456. Possible candiate for the first unit in the new operators livery?

 

[jon91]

Several people on the ground have been d&a tested I gather...

Completely routine in this situation.

 

[greaterwest]

All WoE services running to Reading where crew knowledge allows.

Salisbury services to be turned at Farnborough in the evening peak (according to the original disruption plan), unless the agreement remains in place to run all 1Lxx to Reading

 

[OneOffDave]

Any (educated) guesses as to how bad things are going to be for the evening rush today? Needing to get back to Farnborough

 

[tsr]

Back to the topic though. That's made a mess of the paintwork/vinyls on the 456. Possible candiate for the first unit in the new operators livery?

I could be sure some of the bodywork of the leading coach looks twisted in the photos. If this is indeed the case, and not a trick of the light, it may make the structure unsuitable for further use, therefore perhaps a write-off...

 

[pompeyfan]

In answer regarding the WoE services diverting to Reading, drivers are being route conducted by either driver managers or GBRF drivers, guards are being piloted by guards managers or Higher grade guards. They're running as an out and back from Basingstoke to Reading but there's only so many trained personnel.

 

[bb21]

Salisbury services to be turned at Farnborough in the evening peak (according to the original disruption plan), unless the agreement remains in place to run all 1Lxx to Reading

Yes, current plan is for Level 2 to be implemented for the evening peak, ie. WoE to Reading and Salisbury shorts to Farnborough.

Interesting. Any sign that they've altered anything to make room for them? People often say there isn't much spare capacity along there...

A case of slotting them in where possible I'm afraid atm.

 

[Mag_seven]

In answer regarding the WoE services diverting to Reading, drivers are being route conducted by either driver managers or GBRF drivers, guards are being piloted by guards managers or Higher grade guards. They're running as an out and back from Basingstoke to Reading but there's only so many trained personnel.

If SWT passengers are being diverted to Reading with onwards transfer to Paddington I hope the GWML behaves itself today e.g. no fatalities at Southall or massive signalling failures at Hayes!

 

[carriageline]

Previous experience would suggest that isn't always the case...but the blame goes down to "teething troubles of new equipment". Even if that 'new equipment' is in use elsewhere without much trouble.



Back to the topic though. That's made a mess of the paintwork/vinyls on the 456. Possible candiate for the first unit in the new operators livery?

I imagine that what doesn't help here is also the fact you have people working in '"live" relay rooms, working around equipment which is live and working. All it takes is a wire or terminal to get disturbed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk