15/08/17 Waterloo derailment and disruption (latter likely to continue to 16/8)

[Matt Taylor]

I don't sign the 456s, does anyone know how passengers were evacuated given the lack of corridor connection with both vehicles off the platform?

 

[43096]

I could be sure some of the bodywork of the leading coach looks twisted in the photos. If this is indeed the case, and not a trick of the light, it may make the structure unsuitable for further use, therefore perhaps a write-off...

Deary me. They've not even recovered the vehicles and the armchair experts/idiots have already decided the cause and repairability of the train....

Amount of drivel on this thread is exceptional even by the usual standards!

 

[GB]

Its more designed to protect the trains from errant excavator and crane booms, this way round is just a benefit to the workforce.

...as well as to stop possession staff inadvertently walking onto open lines.

 

[LowLevel]

Surely Mk3-based kit has withstood far worse than a sideswipe?

A slow speed side swipe at Neville Hill killed at least a couple of HST trailers a few years ago!

 

[tsr]

Deary me. They've not even recovered the vehicles and the armchair experts/idiots have already decided the cause and repairability of the train....

Amount of drivel on this thread is exceptional even by the usual standards!

I'm not an armchair expert, indeed I sign and regularly troubleshoot similar stock elsewhere in the country and have been privileged to work with more than a handful of people who used to train guards and drivers on 456s, which will include the very unit in the photo.

Our analysis would always be that structural integrity is paramount when dealing with accidents and incidents on stock which may have a limited service life left. SWT being minus a 2 coach unit isn't ideal, especially when they needed to put so much effort put into babysitting 456s during their early careers on their metals, but they are not the most future-proof units (for a start, I believe the new SW franchise requires niceties such as toilets on mainline trains) and it may not be worth heavy repairs. They have already seen various modifications and there are also quite vulnerable areas in this sort of impact, such as the cab doors.

This, of course, is if - and only if - the photos are not misleading. One has to consider the fact that various camera angles and lenses can cause interesting effects with perspective. All that said, I will be very interested to see the outcome from this one.

 

[fusionblue]

SET is saying on their website about a points problem and "in addition to this they are investigating a problem under investigation" :roll:

 

[goblinuser]

SET is saying on their website about a points problem and "in addition to this they are investigating a problem under investigation" :roll:

You know its bad when they re investigate the problem

 

[fairysdad]

Somebody posted a 'before' and 'after' webcam shot over in the main 'Waterloo Blockade' thread over in Infrastructure.

No, but only because as I said earlier they were switched off at about half twelve.

The firm that were running them is here: http://ography2.com

Before and after stills here:
http://sentry.og2.co.uk/images/ICE00012/2017-08-15/ICE00012-2017-08-15_054100.jpg
http://sentry.og2.co.uk/images/ICE00012/2017-08-15/ICE00012-2017-08-15_054200.jpg

Interesting, looks like the 66 moved slightly - couple of feet maybe? - because of the incident.

 

[Chris M]

Somebody posted a 'before' and 'after' webcam shot over in the main 'Waterloo Blockade' thread over in Infrastructure.
Interesting, looks like the 66 moved slightly - couple of feet maybe? - because of the incident.

I agree the train has moved, but then that's hardly surprising given the kinetic energy that must have been transferred from the 456. As for the distance, I'd say approximately half the distance between the vertical handles either side of the cab door relative to the signal post. I don't know that that is in more standard units.

I suspect the RAIB will make a rather positive comment about the availability of this source of evidence when the report is eventually released.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't sign the 456s, does anyone know how passengers were evacuated given the lack of corridor connection with both vehicles off the platform?

Were there any passengers to evacuate from those carriages? It's was the very front of the train very early in the morning!

 

[Chris M]

Were there any passengers to evacuate from those carriages? It's was the very front of the train very early in the morning!

There were apparently 23 passengers on the train (higher than I would have guessed) but no breakdown of where they were sitting.

 

[GB]

There were apparently 23 passengers on the train (higher than I would have guessed) but no breakdown of where they were sitting.

Only 1 passenger amongst the first two cars.

 

[alastair]

Deary me. They've not even recovered the vehicles and the armchair experts/idiots have already decided the cause and repairability of the train....

Amount of drivel on this thread is exceptional even by the usual standards!

Not really, did you miss the words "if", "may", and "perhaps" in the post you slag off?

Surely postulating theories and discussing things is what a discussion forum is all about?

 

[BestWestern]

A slow speed side swipe at Neville Hill killed at least a couple of HST trailers a few years ago!

Ah, true. However, swiping the side-middle of an HST trailer I would expect to cause significantly more damage than crunching the front corner of the (fibreglass?) cab end of a unit!

 

[Wookiee]

Not really, did you miss the words "if", "may", and "perhaps" in the post you slag off?

Surely postulating theories and discussing things is what a discussion forum is all about?

Heaven forbid! Bizarre rant at one of the most knowledgable posters on here.

 

[MartinB1]

Likely road congestion blocking the crossing or waiting for a down to be in sync to close the crossing just the once. And like I say unless it's seriously kaput you'll find it padded into the time table.

You could always ring them up requesting an explanation, that tends to work [emoji38]

Couple more years you'll get used to the signallers ways

There are times I would love to call up and ask 'why?', I'm presuming it wouldn't go down well?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

 

[E_Reeves]

Is it possible that the points were set incorrectly? Would the system have allowed that? If that is a possibility, would the driver have known it was the incorrect line on the route indicator (or feather) at the signal?

 

[dctraindriver]

There are times I would love to call up and ask 'why?', I'm presuming it wouldn't go down well?

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Give it a go sometime..... they're a good lot, we only think about our train, just think about all the diagrams they're working on and trying to keep everything running in the correct manner. Must be a nightmare when it's going wrong.

I'd rather be sat at a red tutting than flapping in a box somewhere when it's all gone belly up.

 

[GB]

Is it possible that the points were set incorrectly? Would the system have allowed that? If that is a possibility, would the driver have known it was the incorrect line on the route indicator (or feather) at the signal?

all these questions (and more) will be asked and investigated. Those that have information will be unable to post on here. Needless to say anything is possible as evident by the incident!

 

[Sunset route]

Is it possible that the points were set incorrectly? Would the system have allowed that? If that is a possibility, would the driver have known it was the incorrect line on the route indicator (or feather) at the signal?

If a signaller can set a route into a possession into interlocking that's not even been commissioned and probably not connected yet and managed to get a indication with a blooming great ballast train in the way, then there are some very serious questions to be asked?

 

[ainsworth74]

Only 1 passenger amongst the first two cars.

In which case it would presumably be fairly easy to walk one passenger along the track to safety.

 

[Deepgreen]

The BBC have been repeatedly calling the incident a "partial derailment" - have we really got to the point where, if a train derails but not every single one of the wheels is in the ballast, it's now called a "partial derailment"?! It's either a derailment or it's not - or are we now in the territory of "almost unique"?! Good grief.

 

[spark001uk]

If a signaller can set a route into a possession into interlocking that's not even been commissioned and probably not connected yet and managed to get a indication with a blooming great ballast train in the way, then there are some very serious questions to be asked?

Indeed. Furthermore, I thought both sets of crossover points work in unison - if you look at my pic the wagon's bogie (far right of pic) is actually holding the points in the straight ahead position, so one wonders how the set facing the 456 could have been set towards the mishap? Unless there was a serious fault?

Please correct me if wrong.

 

[Deepgreen]

If a signaller can set a route into a possession into interlocking that's not even been commissioned and probably not connected yet and managed to get a indication with a blooming great ballast train in the way, then there are some very serious questions to be asked?

Indeed - I suspect (and that's all it is) that something has been gone badly wrong with the cabling with all the track lifting, and somehow it's become possible for a route to be set up that should not have been possible.

Very bizarre, and another unfortunate incident on top of all the others that have dogged this project.

 

[Antman]

The BBC have been repeatedly calling the incident a "partial derailment" - have we really got to the point where, if a train derails but not every single one of the wheels is in the ballast, it's now called a "partial derailment"?! It's either a derailment or it's not - or are we now in the territory of "almost unique"?! Good grief.

I took it to mean that only part of the train has derailed?

 

[HowardGWR]

Just taking a check on this idea of running Exeter services to and from Reading, it appears that it was abandoned and they ran into Waterloo for the rest of the day (on time even) ), so it was not such a catastrophe as was at first thought.

 

[GB]

Indeed. Furthermore, I thought both sets of crossover points work in unison - if you look at my pic the wagon's bogie (far right of pic) is actually holding the points in the straight ahead position, so one wonders how the set facing the 456 could have been set towards the mishap? Unless there was a serious fault?

Please correct me if wrong.

I am sure there are places were point ends work and are detected independently.

 

[Sunset route]

Indeed. Furthermore, I thought both sets of crossover points work in unison - if you look at my pic the wagon's bogie (far right of pic) is actually holding the points in the straight ahead position, so one wonders how the set facing the 456 could have been set towards the mishap? Unless there was a serious fault?

Please correct me if wrong.

The passenger train is sitting over 1524a and 1524b with the ballast train sitting over 1524c if this diagram of the panel is correct, which makes for some pretty interesting interlocking as different ends can be normal and reverse at the same time?

Waterloo old layout as regards platforms 21-24 and the new works

 

[Mag_seven]

How are they going to recover this unit - attempt to re-rail it?

 

[BRblue]

It might only be 2 stations, however when you are supposed to be running Clapham straight to Waterloo it adds a good few minutes to the journey. Of course I don't know what is happening in the signal box , however I do feel like at times that the signaller is a little scared to use the WR. The other day I was driving a Pompey UP via the Byfleet Curve, with the last two stations before Waterloo being Staines and Clapham. I ended up having to stop at a Red protecting North Sheen level crossing, with no trains being close ahead of us. I would like to know what exactly is going on in the signal boxes sometimes.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Absolutely what could a signaller be doing... well apart from drinking tea, eating a bacon sarnie, reading the paper, maybe even popping outside for a smoke?

Or perhaps it might be one of the following... Dealing with a more important incident somewhere else on their panel, even us signallers only have two hands. Unable to clear protecting signal, unable to get down detection at crossing, loss of picture, loss of crossing controls. Traffic queueing over crossing, a person could of fallen over on the crossing, youths or kids fooling around on the crossing (happened to me the other day, kept standing under the descending barriers.) Level crossings are a signallers nightmare! :eek: