1st class if standard class is actually full

[MikeWh]

Is walking through 1st class not even allowed? I was on both a LM and SN service recently and had no option but to walk through 1st to access the WC at the other end of the train?

Walking through first is allowed as long as there is standard class accomodation on both sides. This will often be the case with commuter operators like LM and SN. It is not allowed if first is at one end of the train with only the staff area beyond it.

 

[gray1404]

Walking through first is allowed as long as there is standard class accomodation on both sides. This will often be the case with commuter operators like LM and SN. It is not allowed if first is at one end of the train with only the staff area beyond it.

Which means my:
1. when traveling LIV-EUS walking through 1st on VT to the front of the train about 3 minutes before we arrive at EUS so I can be quick off the platform
2. when cutting it fine for a VT departure from EUS, jumping on the rear of the train in 1st so I don't miss it, when walking up to standard
...are both not really allowed (although I am yet to see anything enforced)

(on point 1 above, I had one customer say something once - the LIV to EUS before that had been cancelled and I was running an hour late - and because of this I totally wiped the floor with him! I loved the way he "went off to find the guard" as the train was pulling into the EUS platform)

 

[VauxhallandI]

Walking through first is allowed as long as there is standard class accomodation on both sides. This will often be the case with commuter operators like LM and SN. It is not allowed if first is at one end of the train with only the staff area beyond it.

We have the standing in the first doorway behaviour from platform staff at alive Street sometimes. I wouldn't mind but it is the crappy stock up to Cambridge.

Always struck me as petty, I imagine they would move away in the final minute or so.

It would make and interesting meeting of minds if they were in my way trying to catch the train at the last second, I expect they would end up making an unplanned journey to Tottenham Hale!

 

[Flamingo]

Indeed. Those trolleys do get in the way when left outside a micro buffet. Reducing available doors and hindering passenger flow at station calls.

As do passengers standing there when their tickets are not valid for that part of the train and there are lots of other vestibules they can stand in further up the train where their tickets ARE valid.

The trolleys belong in First Class as they are part of the First Class equipment. The Standard Class ticket holders don't.

 

[Deerfold]

Which means my:
1. when traveling LIV-EUS walking through 1st on VT to the front of the train about 3 minutes before we arrive at EUS so I can be quick off the platform
2. when cutting it fine for a VT departure from EUS, jumping on the rear of the train in 1st so I don't miss it, when walking up to standard
...are both not really allowed (although I am yet to see anything enforced)

On East Coast the 1st is regularly enforced so that 1st class passengers do not have a sea of STD class passengers blocking their way.

However, I've regularly seen people walking past the buffet, having only just got on the train and jumped on 1st (though those with plenty of time are pointed to doors further down the train).

(on point 1 above, I had one customer say something once - the LIV to EUS before that had been cancelled and I was running an hour late - and because of this I totally wiped the floor with him! I loved the way he "went off to find the guard" as the train was pulling into the EUS platform)

What did he say to warrant you "wiping the floor with him"?

 

[A-driver]

Which means my:

1. when traveling LIV-EUS walking through 1st on VT to the front of the train about 3 minutes before we arrive at EUS so I can be quick off the platform

2. when cutting it fine for a VT departure from EUS, jumping on the rear of the train in 1st so I don't miss it, when walking up to standard

...are both not really allowed (although I am yet to see anything enforced)



(on point 1 above, I had one customer say something once - the LIV to EUS before that had been cancelled and I was running an hour late - and because of this I totally wiped the floor with him! I loved the way he "went off to find the guard" as the train was pulling into the EUS platform)

Certainly isn't allowed and they do sometimes enforce it. I believe that GA started regularly enforcing it for a period in the Norwich to London trains. You admit you do it to get out the station faster-it's actually very selfish as it means those with FC tickets can't get off until all the standard passengers are out the way-they can't even get bags down from the racks as aisles are blocked by people. One of the reasons to pay for first class is being at the front on arrival at London and so getting out the station quicker.

 

[jon0844]

It's selfish and arrogant, but sadly not uncommon.

If you want to be nice and close to your exit, pay for first class. And if you do ever get told off on the train, don't come moaning about how rude the staff were for enforcing the rules, just as they should - for the benefit and comfort of other fellow passengers.

I guess some people feel they're above everyone else. They're not.

 

[Hellfire]

It's selfish and arrogant, but sadly not uncommon.

If you want to be nice and close to your exit, pay for first class. And if you do ever get told off on the train, don't come moaning about how rude the staff were for enforcing the rules, just as they should - for the benefit and comfort of other fellow passengers.

I guess some people feel they're above everyone else. They're not.

Completely agree. I often travel 1st to Euston from Preston and it is really annoying when, just past Willesden, a queue of people start pouring through from Standard just so they can get off quicker. The notices on coach G on a Pendolino are very clear, no one is allowed through that door into the 1st Class end without a proper ticket. I appreciate the ™ is preparing for arrival and I wouldn't expect him/her to do anything about it, but I'd love to see them all get an excess one day

 

[Mag_seven]

Completely agree. I often travel 1st to Euston from Preston and it is really annoying when, just past Willesden, a queue of people start pouring through from Standard just so they can get off quicker. The notices on coach G on a Pendolino are very clear, no one is allowed through that door into the 1st Class end without a proper ticket. I appreciate the ™ is preparing for arrival and I wouldn't expect him/her to do anything about it, but I'd love to see them all get an excess one day

Even worse - those who arrive in the 1st even earlier than Willesden and proceed to take a seat while they wait for the train to arrive.

 

[jon0844]

I'd do a few stings where RPIs board one or two stations before London arrival and then hit people with first class anytime tickets from the last station the train called at. Entering via standard class of course, so there's no escape.

And when they complain on Twitter, Daily Mail etc, tell them to get stuffed because first class is reserved for first class ticket holders throughout the journey.

Many people in first class would really appreciate this being done, and it might even prevent some people being put off using FC again.

 

[timbo58]

We (RPI's) on a few choice trains where we'd had 1st class passengers complaints -used to block off the buffet & prevent walk through in the last 10 minutes from Reading to Padd at peak times but after a few dozen complaints to GW they prevented us from doing so.

A shame really as sooner or later the regular STD passengers would have got the message that the low key labelling and occasional chucking out of 'standees' didn't achieve IMHO.

Especially on restaurant services (where I started my IC career) it was downright dangerous the amount of aggressive numpties pushing and shoving their way into H to save themselves 10 seconds of running for the tube.

We always treated any coach that had 1st class seating as 1st throughout including all vestibules and corridors.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'd do a few stings where RPIs board one or two stations before London arrival and then hit people with first class anytime tickets from the last station the train called at. Entering via standard class of course, so there's no escape.

And when they complain on Twitter, Daily Mail etc, tell them to get stuffed because first class is reserved for first class ticket holders throughout the journey.

Many people in first class would really appreciate this being done, and it might even prevent some people being put off using FC again.

Here here

 

[bb21]

Especially on restaurant services (where I started my IC career) it was downright dangerous the amount of aggressive numpties pushing and shoving their way into H to save themselves 10 seconds of running for the tube.

I am sure that I recounted the tale a while back on Bedford commuters illegitimately occupying First Class accommodation in Coach F on EMT HST services, thereby hindering the movements of staff who still had to serve full English breakfast to First Class pax that boarded at Wellingborough. Dangerous is an understatement.

 

[Flamingo]

We (RPI's) on a few choice trains where we'd had 1st class passengers complaints -used to block off the buffet & prevent walk through in the last 10 minutes from Reading to Padd at peak times but after a few dozen complaints to GW they prevented us from doing so.

A shame really as sooner or later the regular STD passengers would have got the message that the low key labelling and occasional chucking out of 'standees' didn't achieve IMHO.

Especially on restaurant services (where I started my IC career) it was downright dangerous the amount of aggressive numpties pushing and shoving their way into H to save themselves 10 seconds of running for the tube.

We always treated any coach that had 1st class seating as 1st throughout including all vestibules and corridors.

I have NEVER had an RPI or ATE checking tickets on board a HST between Didcot Parkway and London in either direction...

 

[curly42]

It may be churlish,but as a regular user of FGW 1st class,I find it very annoying to be surrounded by a collection of the "we're staff (off duty),but we know the guard and he said it's o.k. to go first" people.
It would be an interesting situation should they encounter an unfriendly RPI (not that there are any,of course !!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may be churlish,but as a regular user of FGW 1st class,I find it very annoying to be surrounded by a collection of the "we're staff (off duty),but we know the guard and he said it's o.k. to go first" people.
It would be an interesting situation should they encounter an unfriendly RPI (not that there are any,of course !!).

They have had "other authority" to travel, so there is no case against them, though the guard may I suppose end up having disciplinary action taken against him for giving that authority to his mates.

 

[Flamingo]

It may be churlish,but as a regular user of FGW 1st class,I find it very annoying to be surrounded by a collection of the "we're staff (off duty),but we know the guard and he said it's o.k. to go first" people.
It would be an interesting situation should they encounter an unfriendly RPI (not that there are any,of course !!).

At weekends, staff have got passes for First Class...

 

[jon0844]

Maybe just putting up signs stating that it's first class only 'beyond this point' with additional text that random inspections will be carried out and could lead to the need to purchase a first class ticket, pay a penalty fare (where applicable) or prosecution, would reduce the numbers of people doing it a fair bit.

I would say that every now and then you organise RPIs to do a blitz. It is probably, after all, a lot of people who do it regularly and have come to believe it's perfectly acceptable and with zero risk (because, by the sound of it, it IS zero risk currently).

 

[Ianigsy]

Walking through first is allowed as long as there is standard class accomodation on both sides. This will often be the case with commuter operators like LM and SN. It is not allowed if first is at one end of the train with only the staff area beyond it.

Very noticeable on the Class 185s, where the first class compartment is between a standard compartment and the toilet. In the days of hauled stock, it wasn't completely unknown for a buffet or composite to be inserted into a rake the wrong way around. You can understand why a lot of the Mark 1 and early Mark 2-based stock had the first class in compartments with corridors!

 

[Flamingo]

Maybe just putting up signs stating that it's first class only 'beyond this point' with additional text that random inspections will be carried out and could lead to the need to purchase a first class ticket, pay a penalty fare (where applicable) or prosecution, would reduce the numbers of people doing it a fair bit.

I would say that every now and then you organise RPIs to do a blitz. It is probably, after all, a lot of people who do it regularly and have come to believe it's perfectly acceptable and with zero risk (because, by the sound of it, it IS zero risk currently).

The signs are there - and in every vestibule. There is not the will to get the bad press by blitzing the regulars who stand there. I know some of them by name by now (boy does it **** them off when you say "You know your ticket is not valid here Mr Edwards") and lots by sight. They know me as well, some keep walking, one or two leave the train and head for a different one!

 

[jon0844]

Shame you're not yet issued with tasers.

Mind you, shouting 'Get down on the floor Mr Edwards' before shocking him with 50,000 volts, and later kicking his unconscious body out onto the platform at Paddington, such that he ends up the last one off the platform when he comes around a few hours later might get you some grief.

 

[timbo58]

I have NEVER had an RPI or ATE checking tickets on board a HST between Didcot Parkway and London in either direction...

I did say as an RPI I did this many years ago (I was a RP Manager some 10 years back).
We did it about 4 or 5 times within a month whilst travelling up to set up the ticket gatelines originally at Paddington and between Reading (where we were based) and Paddington only on peak services in the morning.

Sadly, then, as now it seems, 'customer care' over ruled what was a fair & proper exercise and, indeed, welcomed by the 'genuine customers' in 1st class at the time.

i.e. the ones who didn't write in!

FGW decided to place stickers instead, a fat lot of use that they are without active enforcement- no doubt they expect the guard to do that also?

 

[GodAtum]

Well, Southern have answered the question once and forall

Commuters who were forced to stand in a first class carriage because their train was so full were fined because they did not have the right ticket.

Passengers were told to pay £20 in penalties even though there was no room for them in standard class on the packed morning service from Surrey to London.

The incident is the latest in a string of controversies involving train operator Southern Railway, which has been accused of running late and crowded services on popular commuter routes.

Passenger Pete Boyland was one of the passengers on the 7.36am service from Oxted to London Bridge who had to stand in first class because there was no space in any standard class carriage.

In a letter to his local MP, he said that customers including an elderly woman were forced to stand up for the entire 35-minute journey, but the ticket inspector showed no sympathy.

The employee dished out fines of £20 or twice the ticket price to all the passengers in first class whose tickets he could reach.

'The train was so packed in fact that the "revenue officers" were unable to pass through to me to check my ticket, despite my clear proximity to them,' Mr Boyland said.

'This is a fine example of the attitude of Southern, who only seem concerned about protecting their revenue, and less about providing an acceptable level of service.'

He called for East Surrey MP Sam Gyimah to crack down on the company following a series of high-profile problems with its rail services.

A spokesman for Southern Railway said that it was up to individual ticket inspectors to decide whether or not to fine customers for standing in first class on packed trains.

He added: 'First class accommodation does not get automatically de-classified if the train is busy, but conductors do have discretion and may de-classify first class if deemed necessary.'

The company, which operates services from Surrey and Sussex into London Bridge and Victoria stations, has been under fire in recent months over persistent delays and overcrowding.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...orced-stand-class-carriage.html#ixzz3aaNd0ZSz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[jon0844]

What if first class wasn't there? As in the compartment was actually the cab or the end of the carriage? If it was so full you couldn't get on, you wouldn't get on!

So why do so many people clearly rush to first class long before checking the whole length of the train? We've all seen it, and heard people actually saying out loud that it will be fine as revenue staff/the guard won't be able to reach them.

Imagine if Southern caved in to pressure and said that people could sit in first class if the train is busy, and imagine how people would define busy...

 

[Flamingo]

Typical Daily Mail.

The last time I had somebody write in complaining I made him move into a "dangerously overcrowded" Standard Class, there were 116 empty seats in Std Class (in every carriage, which I had counted and announced three times), and about six people standing at the buffet (which can hold 20+ standing).

I'm afraid I view non-stories like this as total bollix.

 

[tsr]

Typical Daily Mail.

The last time I had somebody write in complaining I made him move into a "dangerously overcrowded" Standard Class, there were 116 empty seats in Std Class (in every carriage, which I had counted and announced three times), and about six people standing at the buffet (which can hold 20+ standing).

I'm afraid I view non-stories like this as total bollix.

To be fair it is hardly likely that a peak-time Oxted to London Bridge service would EVER have 116 empty seats when it passes through the East Croydon area, which is probably the rough vicinity of where the incident in the article occurred. In fact, there are services where there are only just enough seats for First Class passengers anyway, so I'm afraid I can see the logic of this. However, there is standing room elsewhere (usually between the rear of the train and coach 6 of any service that long) on the vast majority of services, which could be used. Whilst it would take longer to leave the train at London Bridge, that's really part of the reason why you pay for the privilege of being able to choose a seat wherever you like.

 

[jon0844]

You know what I think FGW should do (and perhaps Virgin and others)*.

1. Do a survey for first class passengers over a few weeks, or emailing season ticket holders, to ask if they'd be prepared for increased ticket checks on services - with the acknowledgement that it might delay their alighting at terminal stations, but ultimately help to reduce the number of standard class ticket holders walking through and standing in first class upon arrival.

This is particularly important.

2. Place posters on trains to state that first class accommodation may be subjct to ticket checks before arrival into London (generally speaking, this is where the problem must be worst given FC is at the London end).

3. Every now and then, revenue teams will stand ON THE PLATFORMS to check people getting off the train. Likewise revenue will also stand between first class and standard class for those 'attempting to escape', meaning a little pre-planning is required to have people on the train.

Obviously the pending check will be announced so first class ticket holders can get their tickets/passes ready and be allowed through as quickly as possible. Other staff can be on hand to help people off with bags (although doing so may get bad publicity, as some sort of suggestion of favouritism so maybe scratch that).

4. All people caught will be charged an open anytime first class ticket from the last station the train called at.

5. When the inevitable happens and social media gets swamped with stories of ill treatment from rude train staff, and how it inconveniences first class ticket holders (rest assured, this will be an argument used by those who didn't have one!), FGW and others immediately kick into gear by a) pointing out that first class ticket holders unanimously agreed for such checks to be made.

6. FGW follows up by pointing out that first class is reserved for people who wish to get work done, families that want to enjoy some extra space, people enjoying an extra bit of luxury on their holiday and are treating themselves.. all stuff so as to dispel the myth that FC is only used by people in suits, likely MPs on expenses or working at a major bank that is helping other fat cats avoid taxes. First class on a train is, after all, not quite like on an airline - and so ANYONE can go first class if they wish. Perhaps have a prepared series of examples showing that booking in advance can mean cheaper first class tickets than standard!

Do this only a few times and I'm pretty sure the problem will end, and even the Daily Mail will struggle to make FGW and other IC operators look bad.




* I'm not stupid. I know it won't happen, but it would if I worked there!

 

[455driver]

What if first class wasn't there? As in the compartment was actually the cab or the end of the carriage? If it was so full you couldn't get on, you wouldn't get on!

If this was a train formed of 313s and operating on the Moorgate route they would force the door open and sit or stand in the cab/vestibule area!

 

[jon0844]

Indeed. And now we have stickers all over the 313s telling people not to go in there.

I wonder if these stickers threatening prosecution have been effective?

 

[A-driver]

Indeed. And now we have stickers all over the 313s telling people not to go in there.

I wonder if these stickers threatening prosecution have been effective?

Certainly seems to happen less now than it used to. Used to be common to change ends at Moorgate and find the doors unlocked. Not seen an unlocked door for a while now.