23.00 London Euston-Man picc why run it?

[Tony2215]

2) You have no idea how useful it is to get a train from Warrington at 6am and be in London for just after 8am. Welcome to the real world.

I never mentioned anything about Warrington or the trains that run from Warrington to London.

 

[Andrew1395]

When I worked at Euston in the 1980s we had a 23.20 Liverpool/Manchester, split at Stafford. Both portions had a sleeper and heavy parcels and. Mail traffic. But only rarely had a decent loading in the seating stock.

 

[30907]

When I worked at Euston in the 1980s we had a 23.20 Liverpool/Manchester, split at Stafford. Both portions had a sleeper and heavy parcels and. Mail traffic. But only rarely had a decent loading in the seating stock.

I suspect most of the late evening departures we're discussing appeared following the demise of the traditional night trains.

 

[Starmill]

I mkust also admit to be surprised that the 23:00 Manchester calls at Stockport. I would have expected this train to receive the same treatment as the 23:30 Kings Cross to Leeds which omits Wakefield Westgate to enable it to be diverted around West Yorkshire. The Manchester train to be able to be run via Styal, and now via Warrington and Earlestown approaching Manchester from the west.

I've always thought it a bit deficient that the 2330 from King's Cross doesn't call at Wakefield. It should stop there when it can, or at Kirkgate if necessary, as at present the last available train to Wakefield is the 2135 - earlier than Newcastle! However, one other solution would be to run the 2135 a little later, and run an express train to Doncaster at around that time, to go forward to Wakefield and Leeds. The current 2135 is an incredibly slow journey and has an unattractive arrival time at Leeds of 0010. Note that this misses all connection except York... and there won't be any York passengers on that train anyway as they can use the 2200! If the 2135 achieved similar timings to the fastest day trains, it could connect to local trains to other places in West Yorkshire.

 

[Class 170101]

I suspect most of the late evening departures we're discussing appeared following the demise of the traditional night trains.

NR won't be keen on having them back now either as safety stamdards have changed. It appears less work is done on the closed line adjacent to an open one than was previously the case.
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I've always thought it a bit deficient that the 2330 from King's Cross doesn't call at Wakefield.

As I recall NR tried to force this train and the 22:00's withdrawal from the timetable - suggestions of using St Pancras were also made, just to get better access for maintenance on the ECML. Thats why both of these services are HSTs now so they can be diverted away from the ECML.

 

[Crossover]

Bit pointless running six trains between 0600 and 0700 considering the early hour in the morning and the peak price of a ticket nobody is going to use these services apart from Business managers. Trains would be better of use if they ran a couple of later services after 2115 and reduced the morning peak.

Only done it once, but I have been on a weekday (Monday AM) 7:00am limited stop service before - me and a friend were in 1st Class (thanks to Virgin!) which was fairly well loaded (despite being very much peak and rarely having anything like sensible priced APs on it) and from the crowds at Stockport, I would hazard a guess that Standard was cosy!

 

[LeylandLen]

I seem to remember in late 1970s/1980s under BR there used to be a departure at about 2300 weekdays to Liverpool LS via Crewe where a DMU was available for Wilmslow and Manchester Picc where it arrived about 3am.
I have also used the 2230 / 2330 ex Euston to Wolverhampton which do have pick up stops at Rugby Coventry Birm NS and Int , so it has to wait until published departure time so cant run early if no engineering work ( then driving up M6 to Lancs , whereas now I use 2300 to Stoke and drive from there, much better for me )

 

[Marton]

To hark back to the original query, this late service is one between two of the major cities of England. Are there not similar occurrences at this time of the day of rail services between major cities in Europe?

KX leeds. 2330. But I now see it's been mentioned

I sometimes get the 2115 Newcastle to KX. Dead by the time it gets to KX. I have been the only one in the three southern coaches.

 

[jimm]

I've always thought it a bit deficient that the 2330 from King's Cross doesn't call at Wakefield. It should stop there when it can, or at Kirkgate if necessary, as at present the last available train to Wakefield is the 2135 - earlier than Newcastle! However, one other solution would be to run the 2135 a little later, and run an express train to Doncaster at around that time, to go forward to Wakefield and Leeds. The current 2135 is an incredibly slow journey and has an unattractive arrival time at Leeds of 0010. Note that this misses all connection except York... and there won't be any York passengers on that train anyway as they can use the 2200! If the 2135 achieved similar timings to the fastest day trains, it could connect to local trains to other places in West Yorkshire.

I assume that the lack of a Wakefield call is simply to allow this train to be diverted between Doncaster and Leeds via Knottingley or Gascoigne Wood, in case of overnight engineering work on the route via Wakefield.

 

[30907]

I've always thought it a bit deficient that the 2330 from King's Cross doesn't call at Wakefield. It should stop there when it can, or at Kirkgate if necessary, as at present the last available train to Wakefield is the 2135 - earlier than Newcastle! However, one other solution would be to run the 2135 a little later, and run an express train to Doncaster at around that time, to go forward to Wakefield and Leeds. The current 2135 is an incredibly slow journey and has an unattractive arrival time at Leeds of 0010. Note that this misses all connection except York... and there won't be any York passengers on that train anyway as they can use the 2200! If the 2135 achieved similar timings to the fastest day trains, it could connect to local trains to other places in West Yorkshire.

The 2135 isn't significantly slower than other equivalent services, and the last locals out of Leeds are all around 2315. I suppose a 2105 nonstop would work, but how well would it load?

 

[Andyh82]

That 0627 service via Birmingham surely is more for the benefit of West Midland commuters than Manchester commuters, other than the (likely quite small Manchester - West Midlands + intermediate stops) market.

Based on the discussion in another thread, is this service advertised as "Watford Junction via Birmingham New Street" rather than "London Euston"?

 

[Bedpan]

I sometimes get the 2115 Newcastle to KX. Dead by the time it gets to KX. I have been the only one in the three southern coaches.

Yes I've been on it several times, a very useful train for a day out in Newcastle or Durham, and it's a pity that it doesn't start from Edinburgh at 19.30. Always fairly busy when it leaves Newcastle but almost empty by Stevenage. I suppose not many people fancy arriving in central London and having t fend for themselves after the last tubes have gone - it will be interesting to see if the later tubes to be introduced at weekends will have any effect. Compare this with Cornwall where the last train back to London leaves Penzance more than 3.5 hours earlier.

 

[Crossover]

Based on the discussion in another thread, is this service advertised as "Watford Junction via Birmingham New Street" rather than "London Euston"?

I doubt it. Not many places seem to do such things. Glasgow has oddities currently where you can have a train to like Motherwell but via 3 different routes and it's not immediately obvious as to which is which/which is quickest!

 

[Starmill]

I doubt it. Not many places seem to do such things. Glasgow has oddities currently where you can have a train to like Motherwell but via 3 different routes and it's not immediately obvious as to which is which/which is quickest!

Yep, and Cumbernauld is the other serial offender here!

See attached!

 

[Starmill]

Based on the discussion in another thread, is this service advertised as "Watford Junction via Birmingham New Street" rather than "London Euston"?

I've not seen a Virgin Trains service with a via Point at Manchester Piccadilly in recent times. Not even the train via Birmingham. I would have thought that via Crewe and via Stoke on Trent would be helpful, but apparently not. NRE does give some via points on its live departures though.

 

[anthony263]

I agree, although Manchester(Salford) is now home to the BBC in Media city,most will be travelling to the smoke in the morning, this also includes smaller cities like Cardiff & Chester etc.Im sure the last train leaves Paddington for Swansea at 10pm and a good few trains depart Swansea for London in the early hours.

1st train to London from Swansea is at 0358 and there is a train from Paddington to Swansea at 2245 which does carry a good number of passengers especially to Reading, Swindon & Bristol as well as to Cardiff. After Cardiff it is pretty quiet but it does get a few passengers

 

[berneyarms]

1st train to London from Swansea is at 0358 and there is a train from Paddington to Swansea at 2245 which does carry a good number of passengers especially to Reading, Swindon & Bristol as well as to Cardiff. After Cardiff it is pretty quiet but it does get a few passengers

The 03:58 ex-Swansea also provides a connection from the overnight Rosslare-Fishguard ferry.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

As a football fan who tries to travel by train as often as possible, I really miss very late trains. Nowadays it is very hard to get back to the north west after evening matches - even 5 pm kick offs for England matches at Wembley are a problem as it takes time queuing for trains or tubes back to central London.

I would like to see the late-night Scottish sleepers which leave Euston around midnight carrying passengers in an additional ordinary seating coach to Crewe, Preston and Carlisle.

In the late 1960's and early 1970's, and living in various places, I use to rely on trains like the 0133 Carlisle to Leeds, 0050 Stockport to Leeds, midnight-ish Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central, the 0300 Leeds to Hull and the 2240 Exeter to (I think) Gloucester. I also remember getting very annoyed about lost connections when the 2250 Kings Cross to Bradford Exchange was diverted via Halifax.

When the trains didn't work, there was a midnight bus from London's Victoria coach station to Manchester.

(Please don't nitpick if I've got the times slightly wrong)

 

[Tetchytyke]

As I recall NR tried to force this train and the 22:00's withdrawal from the timetable - suggestions of using St Pancras were also made, just to get better access for maintenance on the ECML. Thats why both of these services are HSTs now so they can be diverted away from the ECML.

Yep, that's right. And for a while they got their own way, of a fashion- the 2200 was split into a 2200 KGX-York and then a 0054 York-Newcastle. At the same time plenty of other useful late night/early morning trains, like the 0200 Newcastle-Manchester Airport, disappeared.

The 2200 is frequently diverted away from the ECML, especially via Knottingley.

 

[Jeni]

I've not seen a Virgin Trains service with a via Point at Manchester Piccadilly in recent times. Not even the train via Birmingham. I would have thought that via Crewe and via Stoke on Trent would be helpful, but apparently not. NRE does give some via points on its live departures though.

I used to catch this train fairly regularly a year or so ago, and it was always on the departure boards as "London Euston via Birmingham N S" (And also empty till Stoke!)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Before reading this thread I had no idea there was a 23:00 from London to Manchester. I'm sure last time I got a late train to Manchester the 22:00 was the last service (that is going back a few years), which stopped at extra stations and thus took just over 2 1/2 hours rather than the normal 2hrs 10mins.

The last Euston-Manchester used to be the 2200, all stops bar Watford Jn to Crewe then onto Manchester (I can't remember if it served Wilmslow or not, it called at Stockport though). Then about 18 months ago that was amended to 2200 to Crewe (all stations as before, now using a Voyager vice Pendolino though as far as I know) and the 2300 to Manchester being discussed. I only ever used the 2200 in its original form once: it was absolutely dead in First.

 

[Class 170101]

Yep, that's right. And for a while they got their own way, of a fashion- the 2200 was split into a 2200 KGX-York and then a 0054 York-Newcastle. At the same time plenty of other useful late night/early morning trains, like the 0200 Newcastle-Manchester Airport, disappeared.

The 2200 is frequently diverted away from the ECML, especially via Knottingley.

Knottingley is the booked route
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62201/2015/04/24/advanced

I had forgotten about the 02:00 ex Newcastle. Indeed TPE did run services north of York thoughout the night.

 

[Baggypants]

Only by Mancunians.

Mancunians would say that the second city is clearly London

 

[TheNewNo2]

I don't usually need to take late trains from London, but when I do, 2300 is not late enough.

A few years back I went from Nottingham to a gig at the IndigO2. There were about five or six different bands playing, and while I got to see the one I wanted I had to walk out immediately after, missing the last act, so I could get back to St Pancras for the final train. While I do understand you can't run stupidly late ones, especially long distance, it is annoying.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

You'd be amazed the amount of late night trains i've missed in Manchester and London because of Concerts not helped by Northern removing a Connecting train from Oxford road to Crescent FNW ran later trains

 

[Statto]

1st train to London from Swansea is at 0358 and there is a train from Paddington to Swansea at 2245 which does carry a good number of passengers especially to Reading, Swindon & Bristol as well as to Cardiff. After Cardiff it is pretty quiet but it does get a few passengers

That used to start at Fishguard Harbour, but was cut back to Swansea with DMU Fishguard-Swansea replacing it but connecting to it.

I remember 20 years ago, Sunday early morning HST Holyhead-Euston leaving Holyhead 01.50, arriving at Euston about 07.30, i caught it from Chester to Euston one Sunday, ran via Northampton then slows to Euston, think it was withdrawn when Virgin took over the WCML.

 

[telstarbox]

Megabus could also be taking some of the possible demand for late travel and for last-minute journeys their prices are very competitive - for tonight you can currently book :
23.45 to Manchester and Liverpool (£16)
23.30 to Bristol and Exeter (and beyond?) (£15)
23.00 to Edinburgh (£50 for Megabus Gold sleeper)
22.30 to Sheffield, Wakefield and Newcastle (£20)

and there may be others.

 

[fowler9]

To hark back to the original query, this late service is one between two of the major cities of England. Are there not similar occurrences at this time of the day of rail services between major cities in Europe?

I got a train from Milan to Turin after 11 at night only a few years back.

 

[atillathehunn]

As I'm sure one of our other Dutch correspondents has reported earlier in the thread, there are trains through the night on the core routes in the Netherlands on the hour through the night. They ran from Schiphol so I used them quite a bit to allow me to get a late flight and still get home by public transport.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Megabus could also be taking some of the possible demand for late travel and for last-minute journeys their prices are very competitive - for tonight you can currently book :
23.45 to Manchester and Liverpool (£16)
23.30 to Bristol and Exeter (and beyond?) (£15)
23.00 to Edinburgh (£50 for Megabus Gold sleeper)
22.30 to Sheffield, Wakefield and Newcastle (£20)

and there may be others.

Perhaps, but then you're travelling on a bus.