A peculiar 1st gen DMU query

[sprinterguy]

I'm not entirely sure why, maybe it's the madness setting in, but earlier today I had a thought:
I'm aware that first generation DMUs were a lot more flexible in their formations; with any number of different combinations of various trailers and driving vehicles and unit lengths; when compared to current DMUs in service, which nowadays are fitted with complex computer wizardry that means the train goes and sulks in a corner if you try and add or take away carriages.

So I was just thinking, was it/is it possible to strengthen a first generation DMU, like a class 101 or 108, with the likes of a mark 1 carriage acting as a trailer? Say adding a TSO, or maybe if there was a need for catering facilities, a full kitchen or mini buffet: Would this work? Or would there be issues with the gangway connections, or power for the lighting, etc, with a standard carriage in the formation?

Any answers anyone?

 

[driver9000]

Control cabling for the other vehicle(s), especially if a driving trailer was leading would be needed.

 

[yorksrob]

It wouldn't surprise me though. Certainly in electric slammer land there were examples of loco hauled buffet cars being wired up to work in EMU's (the 8 VAB unit being probably the most well known).

 

[9K43]

I have worked DMU's from Leeds which had tail traffic in the shape of a newspapervan.
This job was from Leeds City to Barnsley on an early sunday Morning.
As I recall DMU's could work with tail traffic, but some of the DMU's I have been on had enough trouble pulling them selves.
The Old Drivers at Huddersfield did not like a 4 car set with 4 engines as they were not good for climbing up to Clayton West.
They called these sets " Dredgers. "
They liked the 2 car four engined Metro Cam units which would fly up the road to Clayton West JCt. with no bother at all.

 

[sprinterguy]

Ah, thank you all folks for your interesting and informative posts, it's good to find these things out

 

[Drsatan]

The preserved class 201 'Thumper' used on charters has a Mk1 buffet and an ex CEP TSO in the formation.

 

[Oracle]

I used to ride on the Pressed Steel single-cars (railcars) to Hayes & Harlington when spotting at Southall..they often had a single trailer car added to make a 2-car.

I was also on a railtour once with 2 x 3-cars sandwiching a single railcar.

 

[LE Greys]

Some of the later GWR diesel railcars (as seen here) were single-cab. They could work in pairs, or with a coach sandwiched between them. They even had steam heating, used if they ever hauled a through coach from the main line.

 

[sprinterguy]

The preserved class 201 'Thumper' used on charters has a Mk1 buffet and an ex CEP TSO in the formation.

When I mused over this thought, the 201 "Thumper" was one of the things that came to mind. I assume that the mk1 buffet and ex CEP TSO had to be rewired to be compatible with the thumper then?

I have worked DMU's from Leeds which had tail traffic in the shape of a newspapervan.
This job was from Leeds City to Barnsley on an early sunday Morning.
As I recall DMU's could work with tail traffic, but some of the DMU's I have been on had enough trouble pulling them selves.
The Old Drivers at Huddersfield did not like a 4 car set with 4 engines as they were not good for climbing up to Clayton West.
They called these sets " Dredgers. "
They liked the 2 car four engined Metro Cam units which would fly up the road to Clayton West JCt. with no bother at all.

Yeah I knew that the first generation DMUs could handle a light tail load; this was one of the other things I was musing over: I knew that the units could manage to haul a couple of four wheel short vans, and I wondered whether they were capable of hauling say a newspaper van, as mentioned above. I can imagine that this would have affected performance somewhat, given that some of the first gen DMUs were quite low powered to begin with. Thanks for all that info!

I used to ride on the Pressed Steel single-cars (railcars) to Hayes & Harlington when spotting at Southall..they often had a single trailer car added to make a 2-car.

I was also on a railtour once with 2 x 3-cars sandwiching a single railcar.

The class 121 (as they became known) companion trailer vehicles have always interested me-Basically an unpowered, and hence silent, identical twin of the railcars (Or so I've been led to believe). Surprises me in this day and age that back then such a provision was made. It would be like having class 153 trailers.

The pictures I've seen and stories I've heard about some of the first generation railtours and foot-exs, etc, were my primary thinking behind the "varied" formations that used to occur! There were some very impressive "lash ups" of perhaps ten vehicles comprising all sorts of different lengths and classes of unit all strung together.

Some of the later GWR diesel railcars (as seen here) were single-cab. They could work in pairs, or with a coach sandwiched between them. They even had steam heating, used if they ever hauled a through coach from the main line.

Thanks for that, I had no idea that a batch of single ended GWR Railcars were built; I'd only ever known about the double ended cars. That's really fascinating stuff. I've always admired the GWR Railcars, I've always thought they were extremely attractive units, and really useful for the work they did, but that's the first I've seen of the single ended cars. What a good idea! I wonder if it would be possible to convert one (or two) of the Hornby models of the double ended railcar to a single ended one? Doesn't look like it would be too difficult...

I've found out so much more than I was expecting to!

 

[222666]

Yes I think we seem to forget old DMUs took a lot of grunt just to get up to speed, they weren't so bad when up & running but really they struggled!

It would be quite cool though, maybe if another powered carriage could also be added into the rake just to add more grunt ... I'm not of the generation to get nostalgic about steam but I am about 1st gen stock... Yeah I'd love to see some old Frankenstein DMU with lounge or buffet, what about observation cars too? This would go down a treat on some of the longer preserved lines

(Provided there is something left to be salvaged!)

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes I think we seem to forget old DMUs took a lot of grunt just to get up to speed, they weren't so bad when up & running but really they struggled!

It would be quite cool though, maybe if another powered carriage could also be added into the rake just to add more grunt ... I'm not of the generation to get nostalgic about steam but I am about 1st gen stock... Yeah I'd love to see some old Frankenstein DMU with lounge or buffet, what about observation cars too? This would go down a treat on some of the longer preserved lines

(Provided there is something left to be salvaged!)

In the 80s, the Royal Scotsman used to have a converted class 101 driving trailer as an observation car, painted in a bizarre mock-wood panelled livery or something, so I can definitely see that a "scenic" DMU conversion would work.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who is thinking about this sort of idea, I quite fancy the idea of a 1st gen DMU offering full Kitchen facilities from a mark 1 buffet: It would work on some preserved lines (Aren't the dining trains on the Severn Valley already formed of it's heritage DMUs? I do know that some units were indeed built with buffets from new.)

Form the experiences I've had with 1st gen DMUs, getting them going up to a reasonable speed seems to mainly involve a lot of faith and patience Once they get there they're happy, but it seems like you've got to let the unit do it in it's own time, when it feels like it. They've got a lot more personality than a Sprinter.

 

[lewisf]

You say modern units aren't as flexible, but I've seen a picture somewhere of a unit made up from a 158 driving car and a 150 driving car. I was under the impression that all sprinters could work with each other.

 

[sprinterguy]

You say modern units aren't as flexible, but I've seen a picture somewhere of a unit made up from a 158 driving car and a 150 driving car. I was under the impression that all sprinters could work with each other.

Yes all Sprinters can work with each other, but generally their formations tend to stay relatively fixed, any changes tend to be short term arrangements, and there are only a small number of different vehicle types.

I've never seen a 158+150 combination, but there was a short period in the early nineties when a few 15865X sets were made up which were formed up of one 158 driving car and one 156 driving car, due to the lack of tread brakes on the 158s.

Have also seen a couple of instances of 156+153 formations whilst one 156 car was under repair, and of course there have been instances where small fleets of three car 150s, 156s and 158s have been made up by adding the driving car of another unit to the front, or in the middle, of a standard two car train (FGW 158s, West Midlands 150s, Central 158s, RRNE and Scottish 156s, etc).

Nonetheless the variety just isn't the same: You generally have either DMS driving vehicles or TS centre cars and not much else, whereas with first generation units you could have buffets, compartments, composite vehicles, brake standards, first class...the list goes on. And all these units built to varying specifications by different companies. And I can't personally recall any instances of second generation DMU variations on the sort of bizarre first gen DMU "Lash ups" that could occur from time to time; where you could, just possibly, end up with perhaps 11 carriages formed of one four car unit, two two car units and a three car unit, where even one unit could be formed of maybe three different unit classes!

 

[Old Timer]

The first generation DMUs were fitted with a two-pipe quick release vacuum brake system, which made them incompatible with loco hauled stock being marshalled intermediately. In addition there would be no mu wiring on the lhcs.

Bearing in mind the weight of the vehicles as well, a standard MK 1 coming in at 35 tonnes would be equal to the weight of a two-car lightweight unit.

Tail traffic ( vehicles) marshalled to the rear was permitted but was regulated in relation to the DMU.

Each train conveying tail traffic was designated in the timing code column of the WTT with a code to indicate the tail traffic permitted. An example is D1T, indicating it is a DMU, with 1 vehicle permitted, trailing.

These vehicles were invariably lightweight newspaper/parcels/or untility type vans to get around the weight problem.

Remember also that a DMU could not haul in the normal course of events. In an emergency, a DMU could only assist a train up to the weight of itself.

DMUs were also coded (like locos) with MU markings, such as a red triangle, blue square and if I recall correctly an orange circle. Only like coded DMUs could be coupled together in service

 

[Ploughman]

Frequent 156 - 14x on York Harrogate sevices

 

[daikilo]

Yes all Sprinters can work with each other, but generally their formations tend to stay relatively fixed, any changes tend to be short term arrangements, and there are only a small number of different vehicle types.

I've never seen a 158+150 combination, but there was a short period in the early nineties when a few 15865X sets were made up which were formed up of one 158 driving car and one 156 driving car, due to the lack of tread brakes on the 158s.

Have also seen a couple of instances of 156+153 formations whilst one 156 car was under repair, and of course there have been instances where small fleets of three car 150s, 156s and 158s have been made up by adding the driving car of another unit to the front, or in the middle, of a standard two car train (FGW 158s, West Midlands 150s, Central 158s, RRNE and Scottish 156s, etc).

Nonetheless the variety just isn't the same: You generally have either DMS driving vehicles or TS centre cars and not much else, whereas with first generation units you could have buffets, compartments, composite vehicles, brake standards, first class...the list goes on. And all these units built to varying specifications by different companies. And I can't personally recall any instances of second generation DMU variations on the sort of bizarre first gen DMU "Lash ups" that could occur from time to time; where you could, just possibly, end up with perhaps 11 carriages formed of one four car unit, two two car units and a three car unit, where even one unit could be formed of maybe three different unit classes!

First generation should be the units from the 1930s and 40s built for e.g. the GWR.

What I think you are refering to are the modernisation plan units. These had various underfloor mechanical drive/controllines and formed 2 or 3 different groups which were not operationally compatible. However, given the numbers of units available and allocations this was never a real issue. I believe 6 or 8 power cars (i.e. 12/16 engines) could be controlled in most driving cabs.

Whilst most units were specific designs, some Swindon built units were very close in styling to coaching stock of the day. Many of these were even designated as Intercity DMUs and included buffet cars, some having uprated engines. A ride in a fully functioning Transpenine or Newbury DMU was quite something, achieving timings over the Penines better than most loco-hauled trains of the day (some of he Newbury units ended their life on the Transpenine). Its a real pity none have been preserved.

The Thumpers are another category and were EMU/coaching stock with an above floor powerplant.

 

[222666]

True but in general people talk of 1st gen as being anything before Pacers, Sprinters & their prototypes .

 

[sprinterguy]

Just to confirm I was referring to the various modernisation plan units. I really wish there was a Transpennine unit preserved.

Frequent 156 - 14x on York Harrogate sevices

And also things like 153+142, 170+153 too. Still not up to the sort of variety of a 101 driving car at one end, a 108 driving car at the other and whatever inbetween, as some of the Tyseley based first gen (modernisation plan) units ended up as, and other variations. Plus as I mentioned previously, there isn't the variety of different vehicle types with Pacers and Sprinters.

I just knew that Old Timer would be able to come up with some great info on the subject, from one small query I've learnt so much

DMUs were also coded (like locos) with MU markings, such as a red triangle, blue square and if I recall correctly an orange circle. Only like coded DMUs could be coupled together in service

Now that it's been mentioned, I do recall reading that in the past. So not every unit could work with every other one, but, as with the drive differences mentioned by daikilo, there were enough units, of compatible types, that various combinations could occur.

 

[Train wasp]

On a few occasions at Southampton I've seen a 158 2 car set with an additional 159 driving car added making a three car set.

 

[IanXC]

Summer sundays on the Yorkshire Coast Line see Northern sending all kinds of combinations out! Within the last few weeks I've seen the usual 158 or 159 strengthened by a 150, a 153 and a 156. Just waiting for a 180 to be sent some time haha!

 

[9K43]

Once failed at Morley Low Station with the 1300hrs DMU from Huddersfield to Leeds.
I got the protection in between the DMU and the tunnel mouth.
Behind us was a Peak on a Liverpool Newcastle job. He came up behind us a propelled us into Leed City.
I remember that the DMU driver toggeled the gear box and I went round the 2 car set pulling the strings to equalise the brakes.
That was in 1981. When we got to Leeds we went pass to Sheffield Midland on a West Country HST.
We went via Wakefield Westgate down to Kirkgate and up Oakenshaw Bank via Royston Jct ,through Cudworth and joined the S and K at Wath Road Jct.
We then worked the 1655hrs DMU back to Huddersfield via Penistone.( 2 car Metro Cam flyer.)

The road between Oakenshaw Jct to Wath road Jct is now closed and lifted many years ago.

 

[CarterUSM]

Apologies for asking, but what do you mean by pulling the strings? Were you being loose shunted too?

 

[Sun Chariot]

SprinterGuy - if you haven't already, then check out the great info on railcar.co.uk as it's 1st Gen DMU nirvana. I can't recall if it's that, or another, site with a marvellous photo of a pair of GWR Hawksworth carriages (suitably modified) marshalled between a pair of Driving Motor Brake units (think it was the single-cab GW cars but it may have been a 1st Gen class).

 

[Old Timer]

Pulling the strings refers to vacuum braked trains. Put simply, the idea is that there is a valve on the vacuum cyliner that admits air to the upper chamber, thus causing the brake piston to fall under its own weight, releasing the brake.

When all the strings have been pulled, the train crew know that there is no brake. They recreate the vacuum in the train pipe again thus meaning that every vehicle will have 21" of vacuum. If they did not do this they can end up with some brakes partially applied.

A very simple explanation.

 

[CarterUSM]

Pulling the strings refers to vacuum braked trains. Put simply, the idea is that there is a valve on the vacuum cyliner that admits air to the upper chamber, thus causing the brake piston to fall under its own weight, releasing the brake.

When all the strings have been pulled, the train crew know that there is no brake. They recreate the vacuum in the train pipe again thus meaning that every vehicle will have 21" of vacuum. If they did not do this they can end up with some brakes partially applied.

A very simple explanation.

Thank you, i haven't had the (dis?) pleasure of working any vacuum braked stock. A nice clear explanation though.

 

[9K43]

Apologies for asking, but what do you mean by pulling the strings? Were you being loose shunted too?

This incident took place in the summer of 1981, so I never gave it another thought till I wrote this today.

The Liverpool to Newcastle Peak would have had a rake of
MK 2 coaches which would be Air Braked.
The driver made all the arrangements for the rescue from Morley Signal Box.(Now closed)
This driver was the ASLEF LDC Man at Huddersfield.
He then told me what to do as regards protection and destroying the vacuum on the DMU. I had just passed out as a guard a couple of weeks before.
He then spoke to the driver of the express and came to a clear understanding of what the two drivers were going to do.
My driver hooked the DMU onto the Peak and I rode on the engine into Leeds City Station.
On reflection 30 years on, we must have propelled the DMU into Leeds as a swinger
( no brakes on the unit)
At Leeds we were put into a platform on a sub, to find an empty stock working for Neville Hill infront of us.
We were stopped on this platform road by the Leeds City shunter, and he called the train onto the rear of the ECS coupled the conked DMU onto the rear of the stock move.
Soon as this happened the DMU departed upto NH and the express carried on to Newcastle.
I was up at Neville Hill the next day, and found out my DMU ran out of fuel.
The few passengers who were on the DMU rode into Leeds on the express.
Things like this resuce were common 30 years ago, but this would not happen on todays railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apologies for asking, but what do you mean by pulling the strings? Were you being loose shunted too?

This incident took place in the summer of 1981, so I never gave it another thought till I wrote this today.

The Liverpool to Newcastle Peak would have had a rake of
MK 2 coaches which would be Air Braked.
The driver made all the arrangements for the rescue from Morley Signal Box.(Now closed)
This driver was the ASLEF LDC Man at Huddersfield.
He then told me what to do as regards protection and destroying the vacuum on the DMU. I had just passed out as a guard a couple of weeks before.
He then spoke to the driver of the express and came to a clear understanding of what the two drivers were going to do.
My driver hooked the DMU onto the Peak and I rode on the engine into Leeds City Station.
On reflection 30 years on, we must have propelled the DMU into Leeds.
At Leeds we were put into a platform on a sub, to find an empty stock working for Neville Hill infront of us.
We were stopped on this platform road by the Leeds City shunter, and he called the train onto the rear of the ECS coupled the conked DMU onto the rear of the stock move.
Soon as this happened the DMU departed upto NH and the express carried on to Newcastle.
I was up at Neville Hill the next day, and found out my DMU ran out of fuel.
The few passengers who were on the DMU rode into Leeds on the express.
Things like this resuce were common 30 years ago, but this would not happen on todays railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apologies for asking, but what do you mean by pulling the strings? Were you being loose shunted too?

This incident took place in the summer of 1981, so I never gave it another thought till I wrote this today.

The Liverpool to Newcastle Peak would have had a rake of
MK 2 coaches which would be Air Braked.
The driver made all the arrangements for the rescue from Morley Signal Box.(Now closed)
This driver was the ASLEF LDC Man at Huddersfield.
He then told me what to do as regards protection and destroying the vacuum on the DMU. I had just passed out as a guard a couple of weeks before.
He then spoke to the driver of the express and came to a clear understanding of what the two drivers were going to do.
My driver hooked the DMU onto the Peak and I rode on the engine into Leeds City Station.
On reflection 30 years on, we must have propelled the DMU into Leeds.
At Leeds we were put into a platform on a sub, to find an empty stock working for Neville Hill infront of us.
We were stopped on this platform road by the Leeds City shunter, and he called the train onto the rear of the ECS coupled the conked DMU onto the rear of the stock move.
Soon as this happened the DMU departed upto NH and the express carried on to Newcastle.
I was up at Neville Hill the next day, and found out my DMU ran out of fuel.
The few passengers who were on the DMU rode into Leeds on the express.
Things like this resuce were common 30 years ago, but this would not happen on todays railway.

 

[Drsatan]

On a few occasions at Southampton I've seen a 158 2 car set with an additional 159 driving car added making a three car set.

That's quite common now since most Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour trains are three coaches now.

Although I've various DMU combinations, like 158+150, 142+153, 150+153, and 142+143, I've never seen a 158 work in multiple with a Pacer. Any reason why?

 

[CarterUSM]

This incident took place in the summer of 1981, so I never gave it another thought till I wrote this today.

The Liverpool to Newcastle Peak would have had a rake of
MK 2 coaches which would be Air Braked.
The driver made all the arrangements for the rescue from Morley Signal Box.(Now closed)
This driver was the ASLEF LDC Man at Huddersfield.
He then told me what to do as regards protection and destroying the vacuum on the DMU. I had just passed out as a guard a couple of weeks before.
He then spoke to the driver of the express and came to a clear understanding of what the two drivers were going to do.
My driver hooked the DMU onto the Peak and I rode on the engine into Leeds City Station.
On reflection 30 years on, we must have propelled the DMU into Leeds as a swinger
( no brakes on the unit)
At Leeds we were put into a platform on a sub, to find an empty stock working for Neville Hill infront of us.
We were stopped on this platform road by the Leeds City shunter, and he called the train onto the rear of the ECS coupled the conked DMU onto the rear of the stock move.
Soon as this happened the DMU departed upto NH and the express carried on to Newcastle.
I was up at Neville Hill the next day, and found out my DMU ran out of fuel.
The few passengers who were on the DMU rode into Leeds on the express.
Things like this resuce were common 30 years ago, but this would not happen on todays railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This incident took place in the summer of 1981, so I never gave it another thought till I wrote this today.

The Liverpool to Newcastle Peak would have had a rake of
MK 2 coaches which would be Air Braked.
The driver made all the arrangements for the rescue from Morley Signal Box.(Now closed)
This driver was the ASLEF LDC Man at Huddersfield.
He then told me what to do as regards protection and destroying the vacuum on the DMU. I had just passed out as a guard a couple of weeks before.
He then spoke to the driver of the express and came to a clear understanding of what the two drivers were going to do.
My driver hooked the DMU onto the Peak and I rode on the engine into Leeds City Station.
On reflection 30 years on, we must have propelled the DMU into Leeds.
At Leeds we were put into a platform on a sub, to find an empty stock working for Neville Hill infront of us.
We were stopped on this platform road by the Leeds City shunter, and he called the train onto the rear of the ECS coupled the conked DMU onto the rear of the stock move.
Soon as this happened the DMU departed upto NH and the express carried on to Newcastle.
I was up at Neville Hill the next day, and found out my DMU ran out of fuel.
The few passengers who were on the DMU rode into Leeds on the express.
Things like this resuce were common 30 years ago, but this would not happen on todays railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This incident took place in the summer of 1981, so I never gave it another thought till I wrote this today.

The Liverpool to Newcastle Peak would have had a rake of
MK 2 coaches which would be Air Braked.
The driver made all the arrangements for the rescue from Morley Signal Box.(Now closed)
This driver was the ASLEF LDC Man at Huddersfield.
He then told me what to do as regards protection and destroying the vacuum on the DMU. I had just passed out as a guard a couple of weeks before.
He then spoke to the driver of the express and came to a clear understanding of what the two drivers were going to do.
My driver hooked the DMU onto the Peak and I rode on the engine into Leeds City Station.
On reflection 30 years on, we must have propelled the DMU into Leeds.
At Leeds we were put into a platform on a sub, to find an empty stock working for Neville Hill infront of us.
We were stopped on this platform road by the Leeds City shunter, and he called the train onto the rear of the ECS coupled the conked DMU onto the rear of the stock move.
Soon as this happened the DMU departed upto NH and the express carried on to Newcastle.
I was up at Neville Hill the next day, and found out my DMU ran out of fuel.
The few passengers who were on the DMU rode into Leeds on the express.
Things like this resuce were common 30 years ago, but this would not happen on todays railway.

Thanks, interesting stuff! Too right it wouldn't happen now though, i worked the 101's as a ticket boy, but nothing more. They were done away with a few years before my guards training.

 

[43167]

The preserved class 201 'Thumper' used on charters has a Mk1 buffet and an ex CEP TSO in the formation.

Also an ex-EMU coach from a Class 422 slammer.

 

[ungreat]

I remember a 101 coming on Leicester depot and all the staff asking me how to couple it to anything as I'd been a secondman on the southern!! I hadn't a clue,just like them!