Appealling a Psycometric?

[spesh]

This post is regarding failing the dot test (concentration test)

Firstly I had 10 days notice I was shortlisted with First Great Western and I was waiting for them to get in touch with a time and date for my test, I had all practice material from them. I was given 23 hours notice of the time and location of where I had to be to sit the test, with no contact number or information to try and rearrange, Firsts email system takes 36 hours to reply according to First and there website had only two options accept the assessment or remove myself from consideration.
I received the text and email at about 13.00hrs on the 19-09-12 saying I had to get to Reading by 11.45 on the 20-09-12, I was 440 miles away in Perth Scotland, as I work for a freight operating company based in Scotland, most of my time is spent in Scotland. So by the time I got back to my Lodgings and got my things together it was 20.00 hrs, therefore this meant I had to travel all through the night to get to Reading for the following mornings test, being physically and mentally drained, and wanting this career so badly I still went ahead with the test, as rearranging wasn’t a possibility as far I was aware with the information I had.
Also I sat the full depot driver psychometric test with South West Trains and PASSED on the 07-11-12, South West Trains spoke to somebody in First Great Western because my results were not on the UK data base some 48 days after I sat the test with Firsts, I was able to sit the test with SWT as someone from First told SWT I had passed! As most of you are aware, I shouldn’t of sat another test for a minimum of a 6 months period if I had failed on the 20-09-12, but my point being after being in a good state of mind with plenty of rest I was able to pass the test with good marks, I would like to know what I can do next to appeal my failed test as I’m not happy with the situation, ANY HELP REALLY APPRECIATED!!!! Is my depot driver test still valid??

 

[Beveridges]

Your supposed to be given a minimum of 1 weeks notice before sitting the tests, so very unprofessional of First Group to give you 23 hours.
Also you have passed the tests with SWT just 1 month ago. Why did First make you resit them again? Unfortunately I believe your pass with SWT will be invalidated by your fail with First, its really rediculous and horrible system & I'm glad I've got nothing to do with it anymore.

 

[spesh]

I sat the tests with first in September and the SWT test in November.

 

[156441]

Usually you are asked at the beginning of the testing session if you have had sufficient rest and/or have any issues. This was probably the time to bring it up!

 

[185]

This post is regarding failing the dot test (concentration test)

I was able to sit the test with SWT as someone from First told SWT I had passed! As most of you are aware, I shouldn’t of sat another test for a minimum of a 6 months period if I had failed on the 20-09-12, but my point being after being in a good state of mind with plenty of rest I was able to pass the test with good marks, I would like to know what I can do next to appeal my failed test as I’m not happy with the situation, ANY HELP REALLY APPRECIATED!!!! Is my depot driver test still valid??

Never take anything at face value. I would query the result of the (OPC) assessments using the data protection act to find out if you actually failed.

An example...
Merseyrail - "You have failed the assessments."
Candidate - "Are you sure?"
Merseyrail - "Yes."
Candidate - "Can I see the results?"
Merseyrail - "No."
Candidate - "In line with data protection, show me my results"
weeks pass...
Merseyrail - "Well, you failed our interview."
Candidate - "So did I pass the assessments?"
Merseyrail - "Yes."
:roll:

 

[GB]

As harsh as it sounds, it is your responsibility to arrive at the testing center in a fit condition to sit the tests. If you cannot do this for any reason you should have *refused to go or at the very least advise the examiner on the day of your situation.

If that means being removed from the "process" then so be it. Its not the end of the world as you will get future opportunitys as well as not losing one of your two chances.

Whether FGW HR was unprofessional in the short time frame is pretty irrelevant. By going and sitting the tests you accepted it and I can't see the results being overturned.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I regret that my knowledge and experience in this specific matter cannot be taken as reliable.
However, my view is a strong parallel to that expressed above by GB.

In reading your OP, I was surprised by your analysis of the situation here:

. . . by the time I got back to my Lodgings and got my things together it was 20.00 hrs, therefore this meant I had to travel all through the night to get to Reading for the following mornings test, being physically and mentally drained, and wanting this career so badly I still went ahead with the test, as rearranging wasn’t a possibility as far I was aware with the information I had.

My reading of the circumstances you describe would have led me to advise a candidate to advise of their inability to fulfill the proposed timetable on account of prior professional commitments. That would place the responsibility to re-schedule the appointment firmly onto the recruiting Company.

Rescheduling before the test, while opinions are impartial, would be more appropriate than attending, failing, and then appealling after the event, when the Company has arrived at a decision which is not to your liking and renders your opinion as partial.

Like GB, I apologise that this probably isn't what you want to know.

 

[falcon]

This post is regarding failing the dot test (concentration test)

Firstly I had 10 days notice I was shortlisted with First Great Western and I was waiting for them to get in touch with a time and date for my test, I had all practice material from them. I was given 23 hours notice of the time and location of where I had to be to sit the test, with no contact number or information to try and rearrange, Firsts email system takes 36 hours to reply according to First and there website had only two options accept the assessment or remove myself from consideration.
I received the text and email at about 13.00hrs on the 19-09-12 saying I had to get to Reading by 11.45 on the 20-09-12, I was 440 miles away in Perth Scotland, as I work for a freight operating company based in Scotland, most of my time is spent in Scotland. So by the time I got back to my Lodgings and got my things together it was 20.00 hrs, therefore this meant I had to travel all through the night to get to Reading for the following mornings test, being physically and mentally drained, and wanting this career so badly I still went ahead with the test, as rearranging wasn’t a possibility as far I was aware with the information I had.
Also I sat the full depot driver psychometric test with South West Trains and PASSED on the 07-11-12, South West Trains spoke to somebody in First Great Western because my results were not on the UK data base some 48 days after I sat the test with Firsts, I was able to sit the test with SWT as someone from First told SWT I had passed! As most of you are aware, I shouldn’t of sat another test for a minimum of a 6 months period if I had failed on the 20-09-12, but my point being after being in a good state of mind with plenty of rest I was able to pass the test with good marks, I would like to know what I can do next to appeal my failed test as I’m not happy with the situation, ANY HELP REALLY APPRECIATED!!!! Is my depot driver test still valid??

Just so I understand this correctly: You took a test for First on 20-09-12 and failed on dots.
Then you took a test for SWT on the 07-11-12 and passed.
Why do you want to appeal when you have passed the test?
I can not see the problem! please explain?

 

[TheVicLine]

The first thing i would have done would have been to call their HR dept when I recieved the email to see if it could be altered due to the short timescale involved.
When I applied to work for First there were other candidates who did this and First changed their assessment dates without any problems. I cant see that this would have been a problem, if anything it shows initiative whis is surely something a train driver requires.

 

[TT66]

I did the tests with first in October.They asked everybody if they have had 7days notice and opc advised not to take the tests if it wasn't the case!

 

[Class2ldn]

Like has been said before you should have brought it up before the test. Would you be on here if you passed? I doubt it. If youve passed with swt then you have a pass and fgw is irrelevant. As long as the depot one is the same as the mainline driver one then its not an issue.

 

[spesh]

I do understand I should not of sat the test! I understand my SWT test will probably be invalid because I resat a test within 6 months of failing a test. I'm just after information if I can or cannot appeal. I'm aware this is all my own fault and I should of said something, I wanted the job so bad I kept my mouth shut when I shouldn't of!!!! I was not in a fit state mentally or physically when I sat this test. Does anyone know who governs the system? RSSB??
Again thanks for any advice
Like I said before, there were no numbers available to Ring and the email system takes 36 to reply as stated On every email that you send to them.

 

[Bert and Ernie]

What depot have you applied for?

 

[TheVicLine]

Have you called OPC, have they said that the second test is not valid and that you have a fail aginst you?

 

[spesh]

I havnt spoken to OPC yet, they will be having a call tomorrow.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, you can apepal. Ther eis nothing at all stopping you from contacting First about the arrnagements. Whether you have grounds for a successful appeal, however, is another matter altogether.

 

[A-driver]

Yes, you can apepal. Ther eis nothing at all stopping you from contacting First about the arrnagements. Whether you have grounds for a successful appeal, however, is another matter altogether.

I doubt very much that they would let you appeal the results as they can't just change your score, especially as they are marked in relation to the other people sitting the tests.

What they may be able to do is scratch the attempt from your records so it dosnt count as one of your fails. But I wouldn't take it as definate. The recruitment process is about more than the tests and the assessors on the day are watching everything you do, not just looking at test scores. If they asked you if you were fit to sit them and you said you were then that's down to you. They will see it the same way they would a train driver booking on and signing the sheet to say they are fit to work when they actually arnt, especially if they then have an incident and try to blame it on lack of sleep etc.

 

[Beveridges]

From what I understand, you took the tests with First in September and failed, then took them again in November with SWT and passed. If you keep quiet to SWT/OPC about the failure with First then maybe they might not know and they should hopefully offer you the Depot Drivers job. Have you got anything left in the recruitment process to get through before being offered the DD job?

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They will see it the same way they would a train driver booking on and signing the sheet to say they are fit to work when they actually arnt, especially if they then have an incident and try to blame it on lack of sleep etc.

I know plenty of Drivers / DD's (including myself) who will start a shift after having had no or little sleep. Due to the crappyness of the shifts at some depots (whether its nights in a DD role or early mornings in a mainline role), some people lose so much sleep that if you were to go on the sick every time you were sleep deprived you would have such a bad sickness record that dismissal would happen eventually anyway!! I think being able to concentrate while sleep deprived is part of the job so sitting the Group Boredom test after little or no sleep is actually a better test of suitability than sitting the Boredom test well rested. It is inevitable in a drivers role that certain shifts / shift changes mean very little or no sleep before starting work on some days.

 

[A-driver]

From what I understand, you took the tests with First in September and failed, then took them again in November with SWT and passed. If you keep quiet to SWT/OPC about the failure with First then maybe they might not know and they should hopefully offer you the Depot Drivers job. Have you got anything left in the recruitment process to get through before being offered the DD job?

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I know plenty of Drivers / DD's (including myself) who will start a shift after having had no or little sleep. Due to the crappyness of the shifts at some depots (whether its nights in a DD role or early mornings in a mainline role), some people lose so much sleep that if you were to go on the sick every time you were sleep deprived you would have such a bad sickness record that dismissal would happen eventually anyway!! I think being able to concentrate while sleep deprived is part of the job so sitting the Group Boredom test after little or no sleep is actually a better test of suitability than sitting the Boredom test well rested. It is inevitable in a drivers role that certain shifts / shift changes mean very little or no sleep before starting work on some days.

I don't agree with you there.

That's why we have 12 hours between shifts and as a professional you should do your best to get adequate rest. I know we all go to work tired once in a while but travelling to reading to start work from Scotland travelling overnight is very extreme and if you did that as a driver then you would be expected to go sick or at least go off track for the day if you felt too tired. If you tried booking on after that and had an incident you wouldn't be given much chance to appeal.

There is a difference between being tired when booking on at 0430 and actually being sleep deprived-I don't know any drivers who I would say I had ever seen dangerously tired like you seem to be suggesting and I strongly recommend that if you do work in that state you addresses the causes of it straight away or else you are seriously putting your job on the line!

 

[GB]

There is a difference between being tired when booking on at 0430 and actually being sleep deprived-I don't know any drivers who I would say I had ever seen dangerously tired like you seem to be suggesting and I strongly recommend that if you do work in that state you addresses the causes of it straight away or else you are seriously putting your job on the line!

Fully agree but the job will be the least of their worries if they come off the road and injure/kill someone.

 

[Beveridges]

That's why we have 12 hours between shifts and as a professional you should do your best to get adequate rest

If you do a night turn and just can't get off to sleep the following morning theres nothing you can do about it, similarily if your on an early turn and have to be up at 0500 but find yourself still wide awake at 0200 despite trying to sleep since 2100, theres nothing you can do about it. Signing on after no sleep can and does happen. Not every day but it has certainly happened to me from time to time and several others I know. Not as extreme as starting work after driving from Scotland to Reading overnight I must admit

 

[A-driver]

If you do a night turn and just can't get off to sleep the following morning theres nothing you can do about it, similarily if your on an early turn and have to be up at 0500 but find yourself still wide awake at 0200 despite trying to sleep since 2100, theres nothing you can do about it. Signing on after no sleep can and does happen. Not every day but it has certainly happened to me from time to time and several others I know. Not as extreme as starting work after driving from Scotland to Reading overnight I must admit

That's not sleep deprivation though, just being tired. If you do nights you may not get proper sleep but you will certainly get some sleep during the day-if not then it should be addresses, trying not to sleep at all during the night shift, not planning any jobs/activities during the day etc.

It depends why you can't get to sleep with early starts to, I always have problems the first early after lates or rest days so accept I will be a bit tired that first morning but tend to sleep well after that, if I don't then again I address it, try not to fall asleep on the sofa when I get home etc, change diet/caffeine intake etc.

As I say, there is a world of difference between feeling tired at extreme times of day and being sleep deprived.

 

[spesh]

I think getting up at 7am having a full day and then driving through the night and finally being awake for 28 hours before sitting a test is a little different to being a bit tired at the start of your shift!

 

[A-driver]

I think getting up at 7am having a full day and then driving through the night and finally being awake for 28 hours before sitting a test is a little different to being a bit tired at the start of your shift!

It is, but its no different to getting up at 7am having a full day and then driving through the night and finally being awake for 28 hours before signing on for duty as a driver which is what my point is and what the psyc assesses will take into consideration-hence they asked you if you were fit to go ahead at the start. My point is you had an opportunity to declare what you posted above and they would have accommodated you.

 

[spesh]

I am fully aware I should of said something, and as stated previously it is all my fault.

 

[A-driver]

I am fully aware I should of said something, and as stated previously it is all my fault.

Well you live and learn, but I suppose contacting them to explain wont do any harm, at very worst they will say no and you still have one other attempt left to pass.

I have heard other similar stories about FGW recruitment being very last minute and mucking people around (scheduling people who live in London and are applying for a London job an interview in Bristol before the first trains arrive in the morning!) and it seems they have the attitude that you need them more than they need you. Sadly no easy answer to that!

I didn't mean to come across harshly on here, just trying to explain how they will see the situation.

 

[Beveridges]

So what is the outcome with SWT? Have they progressed your application for the Depot Drivers job after passing on the 2nd attempt? If so then no need to appeal!

 

[455driver]

Hang on a minute, have I got this right.
you took the tests with First in September and failed.
Then took them again with SWT in November and passed.

Have you taken the tests before or after these 2 attempts?

Your SWT pass wont count as it was within 6 months of failing the tests (with FGW) and the fact you took the tests knowing you had failed, despite what FGW told SWT, will be a big black mark against your name as it is YOUR responsibility to be honest and if you cannot be honest about the tests what are the chances of you being an honest employee. Sorry to be a bit negative but with 1000s applying for trainee driver jobs they can be very very fussy who they take on.

What exactly are you trying to appeal?
You sat the tests and failed, if you did not consider yourself fit to sit them then you should have said something beforehand not after because the fact you sat them means that you considered yourself fit.

Even if you manage to get through onto a drivers course, if this comes to light then you will be kicked off the course.

 

[Beveridges]

I would keep it quiet if I was in your position. SWT/OPC have already made an error by asking you to resit within 6 months, that is where the check of previous attempts should have been made. They may never check again.
If they do find out you could always argue that you was never aware that you had to wait 6 months before a resit. Afterall if I never had researched it on the Internet I would probably have never found out myself. I don't remember it stating it anywhere at the test centre.

 

[Class2ldn]

Its normally on the application form asking if you have sat a test before? All depends if you applied for the second job after or before the first tests.