Arriva Rail North DOO

[driver_m]

Hmm, some of these posts about fresh faced staff, eager to help customers and not hiding in the back cab .. Have any of you rode on VTWC, where a Safety Crit trained guard does all of that anyway? Highly regarded service and someone to help us out should something go wrong . Yes it's an inter City franchise, but why can't other TOCs do it? If you have assets, make the best of them, don't hide it away, and certainly don't get rid. . What union in its right mind would say that getting the guard out and doing revenue, meet n greet, etc is not an option if they still keep their safety Crit duties as now. it has to be a better option than getting rid and the platform train interface is always safer with a pair of eyes looking directly at it rather than via a screen .

 

[driver_m]

I certainly hope that it's all, and only, about safety - as it should be.

However, the cynic in me says that it will get resolved eventually by a pay or benefits increase. Presumably, you would not agree ?

Can only speak for myself but no I wouldn't. I'll never vote for DOO for any bounty .

 

[Bromley boy]

Can only speak for myself but no I wouldn't. I'll never vote for DOO for any bounty .

It’s certainly interesting to compare the Northern and GTR disputes. The received wisdom down south is that that the GTR drivers simply sold the guards out for £££. However the reality was a little more complicated:

- ASLEF were against DOO from the outset;

- it was being forced through anyway so in the end they had to negotiate for better on- train equipment and a pay increase for their members (drivers) to reflect the extra responsibility;

- even this took a few votes to be accepted, which included extracting concessions including better quality on board monitor systems for existing stock as well as new, OBSs being rostered to all services and trains not to run without them other than in certain limited “exceptional circumstances”;

- it was also complicated by the fact that in GTR land many drivers (some entire depots) were fully DOO already and had never driven with a guard, or already drove a mix of DOO and guarded services;

Of course the situation with Northern is very different, as I understand it, with virtually every service guarded, much lower quality rolling stock and infrastructure and DOO almost completely unknown.

The culture is very different down south and I imagine the Northern ASLEF branches will be rather less willing to entertain DOO no matter what concessions the TOC grants...

 

[driver_m]

It’s certainly interesting to compare the Northern and GTR disputes. The received wisdom down south is that that the GTR drivers simply sold the guards out for £££. However the reality was a little more complicated:

- ASLEF were against DOO from the outset;

- it was being forced through anyway so in the end they had to negotiate for better on- train equipment and a pay increase for their members (drivers) to reflect the extra responsibility;

- even this took a few votes to be accepted, which included extracting concessions including better quality on board monitor systems for existing stock as well as new, OBSs being rostered to all services and trains not to run without them other than in certain limited “exceptional circumstances”;

- it was also complicated by the fact that in GTR land many drivers (some entire depots) were fully DOO already and had never driven with a guard, or already drove a mix of DOO and guarded services;

Of course the situation with Northern is very different, as I understand it, with virtually every service guarded, much lower quality rolling stock and infrastructure and DOO almost completely unknown.

The culture is very different down south and I imagine the Northern ASLEF branches will be rather less willing to entertain DOO no matter what concessions the TOC grants...

My sentiments exactly. I've said this consistently, that since James St. (And the second Merseyrail incident where a Guard was up in court under some law from the 1800s) A pot of money will no longer buy people off. What driver in their right mind wants that hassle, no help during trouble, and distraction for the sake of some money? Of course, some will see the pound signs, but many will see the long term trouble it will cause.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

It’s certainly interesting to compare the Northern and GTR disputes. The received wisdom down south is that that the GTR drivers simply sold the guards out for £££. However the reality was a little more complicated:

- ASLEF were against DOO from the outset;

- it was being forced through anyway so in the end they had to negotiate for better on- train equipment and a pay increase for their members (drivers) to reflect the extra responsibility;

- even this took a few votes to be accepted, which included extracting concessions including better quality on board monitor systems for existing stock as well as new, OBSs being rostered to all services and trains not to run without them other than in certain limited “exceptional circumstances”;

- it was also complicated by the fact that in GTR land many drivers (some entire depots) were fully DOO already and had never driven with a guard, or already drove a mix of DOO and guarded services;

Of course the situation with Northern is very different, as I understand it, with virtually every service guarded, much lower quality rolling stock and infrastructure and DOO almost completely unknown.

The culture is very different down south and I imagine the Northern ASLEF branches will be rather less willing to entertain DOO no matter what concessions the TOC grants...

Quite right but believe it or not it's not up to the drivers to decide whether or not the trains run in DOO or Driver and Guard operation which is what GTR drivers and guards found out when they more a less imposed DOO on them. ASLEF were due a pay rise anyway and they may as well of pushed for me because the changes were happening whether they liked it or not I am afraid. The Guards were given various promises such as a £2000 lump sum, guaranteed levels of overtime and no big T&C changes. However the RMT decided to turn all this down on their behalf and lost them the above as well as meaning they get a flat commission rate per ticket and Sundays included in the working week to state the very least.

 

[muz379]

Of course the situation with Northern is very different, as I understand it, with virtually every service guarded, much lower quality rolling stock and infrastructure and DOO almost completely unknown.

All passenger trains are currently guarded without exception . No guard no train .

The culture is very different down south and I imagine the Northern ASLEF branches will be rather less willing to entertain DOO no matter what concessions the TOC grants...

quite , but to what extent will the branches get to articulate that . And to what extend is the agenda being set by the senior leadership of ASLEF . Only time will tell .

 

[Carlisle]

The culture is very different down south and I imagine the Northern ASLEF branches will be rather less willing to entertain DOO no matter what concessions the TOC grants...

Regardless of the region or culture a fair proportion of the U.Ks travelling public has allready faced up to nearly 2 years of intermittent strikes over the same issue, so the majority (including most of the media) whether left or right leaning, are by now pretty well aware it’s really much more about preserving T&Cs, than absolute safety, or fighting for their industry’s very existence akin to the miners strike, So I doubt ASLEF choosing to join in now will deliver the instant victory some predict, unless govt has truly given up.

 

[Dave1987]

Why should that be ? - are these people with little ability, unable to drive themselves forward, lazy, or simply out of touch with modern practices in the real world ?

You really really don’t get it so there is just no point. Lots and lots of working people do not have the ability to demand decent wages and t&c’s without being in a union. The Tories have demonised and restricted unions as much as they can. So to many people ‘modern practices’ mean less money for more hours worked with continual degrading of T&C’s and worse and worse pensions. For those that don’t live in Ivory towers the economy and the world of work is getting worse and worse. So people are prepared to fight to keep decent employment no matter how much the Government demonises them for that fight.

 

[Bromley boy]

Quite right but believe it or not it's not up to the drivers to decide whether or not the trains run in DOO or Driver and Guard operation which is what GTR drivers and guards found out when they more a less imposed DOO on them.

It still took a mighty effort to get it past ASLEF, though, + many Southern mainline drivers already drive DOO services, or did so in the past. That’s clearly not the case with northern.

quite , but to what extent will the branches get to articulate that . And to what extend is the agenda being set by the senior leadership of ASLEF . Only time will tell .

Indeed.

it’s much more about preserving T&Cs, than absolute safety, or fighting for their industry’s existence akin to the miners strike,

It’s about both. The unions primarily exist to look after their members, of course. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Keep in mind that “passenger safety”, from a traincrew perspective, isn’t entirely about protecting the passengers. It also includes the risk of traincrew being hauled up on a manslaughter charge for dragging some drunk idiot off a platform.

As a DOO driver that’s the clear and present danger I face, staring into those grainy monitors we have to work with - it’s far scarier than having a SPAD, or similar. I’d much rather have “ding ding and away”. Then, if the worst happens, it’s someone else’s fault.

If I didn’t already work to those conditions, I wouldn’t be too keen to take them on for a few extra £££. Especially if I was based in an area of the country where housing is far cheaper than it is down south.

Unlike mining in the U.K., the UK rail industry will continue to exist far into the future. And will most likely grow in importance.

So I doubt ASLEF simply joining in will deliver the instant victory some predict.

We shall see.

If ASLEF members flatly refuse to drive trains it might. Then again my understanding is that many workers up north, even in the larger cities, can drive to work rather than take the train, unlike those in the south who can only commute into London by train, so maybe you have a point!

Time will tell.

 

[B&I]

It was myself earlier that posted about job security.

I was trying to explain that as someone in their late 20’s, who has worked hard to get where I am in the industry, someone who has a perfect sickness/punctuality record, and I am someone that’s want to progress in the industry, that a guarantee of 9 years employment wouldn’t be good enough for me.

As expected the usual suspect, jumped on it, because we have now reached a point in society, where wanting to be in work, have decent job security as part of your T&C’s is something that is derided and scoffed at by people on here.

My role, may change in the next 5-10 years, it won’t be the same job, but I am happy to adapt, as long as there is the job security for the future. I will most likely be applying for promotions within my grade in years to come, because this is the industry I’ve chosen to work to in, one I’m passionate and knowledgable about, and a role I’m good at.

Now to put all that hard work in over the years, and maybe 10-15 years time be in a role, where I’m suddenly ‘disposable’ would make me feel worthless.

But the opinion by one on here, is that I should expect that, because it’s good enough for some and is exactly what has happened to some, and as mentioned being passionate about your job and wanting to have a fulfilling, secure career, is something that faces derision. What a shame.

Anyway, slightly OT again, so sorry for that.

Not really off-topic. Certain posters on this thread are vwry clearly motivated by jealousy of unionised workforces, manifesting itself in a ludicrous determination to blame the unions for everything wjich goes wrong. This is coupled with a strange delusion of personal and / or professional superiority over anyone who works on a different basis and / or disagrees with them. The extent to which their personal dissatisfaction and / or insecurity directs their approach to.life is startling

 

[B&I]

Have you ever offered constructive criticism of TPE for their part in this whole debacle or is it only northern that you seem to despise ?

Pardon me for my exasperation with a train company which cannot operate a service reliably, and which has made my life (as aomeone dependent on trains to get around daily) more difficult for the last few months. I appreciate that it is de rigeur on this thread to be a government / TOC sycophant, but some of us have to actually use the trains.

As for TPE, what exactly have they done that's constructive ? Abandoned all service to the city where I live for 2 months when there were clearly options to go on serving it, and made a total Horlicks out of running services between Leeds and Manchester ?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I understand what you are saying but DOO on Southern started somewhere we are not talking about making every Northern service DOO nor the majority it is limited to Northern Connect services running between major high density population areas. ASLEF have form for accepting DOO where their members are adequately remunerated for the extra responsibility and I am sure they would be up for a similar deal as the one brokered on Southern if it is offered to them barring in mind a lot of depots would probably be unaffected by there changes anyway so it would be a win-win for them drivers in particular when they are given a pay rise for no extra responsibility.

There is no pleasing a lot of people you could absolutely categorically guarantee a second person on board such as an OBS or Ticket Examiner and nobody would be happy with it because they are not an old school 'Guard'

 

[woodmally]

Pardon me for my exasperation with a train company which cannot operate a service reliably, and which has made my life (as aomeone dependent on trains to get around daily) more difficult for the last few months. I appreciate that it is de rigeur on this thread to be a government / TOC sycophant, but some of us have to actually use the trains.

As for TPE, what exactly have they done that's constructive ? Abandoned all service to the city where I live for 2 months when there were clearly options to go on serving it, and made a total Horlicks out of running services between Leeds and Manchester ?

No we are not blaming the unions for everything that goes wrong just the days they cannot be bothered to turn up to work meaning we cannot get from a to b. The days they are striking in this pointless strike that will get them nowhere because not one RMT member on here has explained how they can win this strike action. I will repeat my calls for evidence on how they can square this circle by getting the DFT to ignore the Northern Agreement or Northern to break their agreement with the DFT without a penalty.

 

[northwichcat]

The Northern franchise ends in 6 years and 9 months and the (to be determined) status quo at most only has to be preserved 12 months beyond that.

It was let as a 9 year franchise with an option to extend, the guarantee of employment until 2025 was made well over a year ago and has since had an additional year added by DfT.

 

[northwichcat]

I always avoid these threads now, as I get to irritated, however, seeing things like this irks me.

Yes, I do see it as that and let me explain:

I’m in my late 20’s, I will have to work until I’m 67. I want to work. I want to know that I can provide for my family, my children, my children’s children etc etc. So 9 years, no that wouldn’t be good for me. This “you should be lucky to have a job” mentality is scary, with comparisons to other jobs, zero-hours, fixed term contracts etc.

...

But I expect most on here will probably turn on me with the usual, “you should count yourself lucky, other jobs don’t have your kind of job security, conditions etc” this mindset is getting really boring and tiresome now.

What's a good offer depends on your circumstances. You seem to want a job on the railways until you're 67, others will want to retire at the earliest opportunity, some may even voluntary move to a less well paid less stressful job when their mortgage is paid off, children reach 18 etc.

 

[northwichcat]

Life long employment in the modern world is going from job to job every few years getting worse and worse pay for worse and worse terms & conditions......

Not always worse and worse terms & conditions. However, the problem with moving to another company is if you are made redundant how much redundancy pay depends on your length of service. Moving to another company because they pay £5,000 more and give more days holiday may sound good but if your new employer ends up making you redundant then you can end up worse off in the long term.

 

[Tomnick]

No we are not blaming the unions for everything that goes wrong just the days they cannot be bothered to turn up to work meaning we cannot get from a to b. The days they are striking in this pointless strike that will get them nowhere because not one RMT member on here has explained how they can win this strike action. I will repeat my calls for evidence on how they can square this circle by getting the DFT to ignore the Northern Agreement or Northern to break their agreement with the DFT without a penalty.

Once DOO and/or the ongoing industrial dispute becomes politically unpalatable, I don’t see renegotiation of the franchise terms being too far-fetched.

 

[driver_m]

Ow i read your post! You are basically accusing people who are worried about their job prospects for the future of being too lazy and feckless to drive themselves forward to being able to demand higher wages and decent t&c's from employers. I gave a real example earlier of a friend of mine who's job position is currently "under review" who has looked at 'up skilling' themselves, but they were quoted huge amounts of money by their local college for courses and their is absolutely no Government help to do so. Some people out there want to better themselves but are hamstrung by the virtues of education now being a business to be milked for its profits. Maybe you should start looking at why people are worried for their futures rather than accusing them of being "lazy" or "out of touch" eh?

I wouldn't bother Dave. There's plenty of right wing stirrers on here who would put us in stocks or be given the birch for being in a union in their fantasy world. Thankfully the UK is starting to swing back left again, so they'll have to dream on.

 

[northwichcat]

Once DOO and/or the ongoing industrial dispute becomes politically unpalatable, I don’t see renegotiation of the franchise terms being too far-fetched.

The problem with Northern is the franchise spec was created under the coalition (Conservative-Lib Dem) government and signed off by Rail North (consisting of many Labour councils.) The non-Tories originally had issues with it being proposed only drivers on trains but when it was changed to a second member of staff on board but the second member focusing on customer service and revenue instead of a traditional guard it was enough to satisfy Labour and the Lib Dems, especially considering some passengers had commented on there being no visible staff presence on services and others have mentioned no opportunity to buy tickets if boarding at a station without ticket facilities. Put all the blame you want on Grayling but he wasn't even involved with writing the specification and those who now sit directly under Andy Burnham were partly responsible for its' contents.

 

[Tomnick]

Grayling might not have written the franchise spec, but his department could certainly negotiate a change to it now if they really wanted to.

 

[northwichcat]

Grayling might not have written the franchise spec, but his department could certainly negotiate a change to it now if they really wanted to.

Grayling arranging a change to suit the RMT is as likely as another General Election prior to Brexit - not impossible but extremely unlikely to happen. As we saw with Southern he just watched the RMT go on strike after strike until ASLEF agreed to the deal and he didn't have the cross-party* or local support he has with Northern.

* Corbyn will claim Labour don't support it but other people in Labour agreed to it, just like with Merseyrail. Labour's position on DOO is as clear as their position on Brexit.

 

[B&I]

No we are not blaming the unions for everything that goes wrong just the days they cannot be bothered to turn up to work meaning we cannot get from a to b. The days they are striking in this pointless strike that will get them nowhere because not one RMT member on here has explained how they can win this strike action. I will repeat my calls for evidence on how they can square this circle by getting the DFT to ignore the Northern Agreement or Northern to break their agreement with the DFT without a penalty.

Where were you when Northern's service was falling down around its ears ?

 

[Bromley boy]

Grayling might not have written the franchise spec, but his department could certainly negotiate a change to it now if they really wanted to.

Grayling arranging a change to suit the RMT is as likely as another General Election prior to Brexit - not impossible but extremely unlikely to happen. As we saw with Southern he just watched the RMT go on strike after strike until ASLEF agreed to the deal and he didn't have the cross-party* or local support he has with Northern.

* Corbyn will claim Labour don't support it but other people in Labour agreed to it, just like with Merseyrail. Labour's position on DOO is as clear as their position on Brexit.

I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that the current DOO “push” might be abandoned. The public aren’t interested in the minutiae of the disputes, but they are annoyed when their train isn’t running and they can’t get to work.

Looking at GTR, nothing has really been achieved. The wage bill is higher than ever and the disruption had cost an enormous amount of public money (£100m+ I believe), not to mention an immeasurable bad effect on economic growth.

The government (should) have far bigger fish to fry than picking very public and very unpopular fights with the rail unions. Look at the electrification debacle, especially look at the Thameslink shambles, much of which is down to DfT incompetence.

 

[northwichcat]

I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that the current DOO “push” might be abandoned. The public aren’t interested in the minutiae of the disputes, but they are annoyed when their train isn’t running and they can’t get to work.

Looking at GTR, nothing has really been achieved. The wage bill is higher than ever and the disruption had cost an enormous amount of public money (£100m+ I believe), not to mention an immeasurable bad effect on economic growth.

The government (should) have far bigger fish to fry than picking very public and very unpopular fights with the rail unions. Look at the electrification debacle, especially look at the Thameslink shambles, much of which is down to DfT incompetence.

You're right the government do have bigger fish to fry - that's why Grayling is ignoring the RMT and concentrating on why the May 2018 recast went wrong and Heathrow Airport expansion. Grayling's also more than happy to spend time promoting Brexit over sorting out transport issues.

 

[Bromley boy]

You're right the government do have bigger fish to fry - that's why Grayling is ignoring the RMT and concentrating on why the May 2018 recast went wrong and Heathrow Airport expansion. Grayling's also more than happy to spend time promoting Brexit over sorting out transport issues.

But doesn’t that reveal the RMT’s current strategy to be a sensible one? Be as difficult as possible at every turn and cause maximum possible disruption. People will become increasingly annoyed with the situation and in many cases will, quite rightly, blame government incompetence.

The RMT isn’t very popular with the public but neither, it would seem, is the current government. The difference is that the RMT doesn’t rely on general elections for its continued existence.

If the DfT had only left things as they were, or had approached the issue of reforming the guards’ role in a less ham-fisted way, the railway would have continued to run perfectly well, without any of the enormous disruption and bad feeling we have seen (and will continue to see, probably for years).

As for the Heathrow 3rd runway, just crack on and build the bloody thing. Most countries would have got it done years ago. Let BoJo lie down in front of the bulldozers if he wants to (he’ll turn out to be in Afghanistan, or wherever, at the crucial moment, no doubt).

 

[northwichcat]

The RMT isn’t very popular with the public but neither, it would seem, is the current government. The difference is that the RMT doesn’t rely on general elections for its continued existence.

The RMT have constantly said the fault of the Northern dispute lies at the door of 'German owned' Arriva 'who want to put profits before passengers.' Grayling isn't a popular figure in general but in trying to point the finger of blame at a privately owned company, the RMT have probably done Grayling a favour if the general public listen to them.

Unfortunately, transport policy often gets ignored when people vote in general elections, despite a lot of people using one form of transport or another on a regular basis.

 

[Bromley boy]

The RMT have constantly said the fault of the Northern dispute lies at the door of 'German owned' Arriva 'who want to put profits before passengers.' Grayling isn't a popular figure in general but in trying to point the finger of blame at a privately owned company, the RMT have probably done Grayling a favour if the general public listen to them.

Unfortunately, transport policy often gets ignored when people vote in general elections, despite a lot of people using one form of transport or another on a regular basis.

In fairness to the RMT, though, they aren’t wrong in saying that. The current operator of Northern presumably did their due diligence and therefore took the franchise on in full knowledge of what the agreement specified.

It’s also no secret that the RMT aren’t exactly fans of the current conservative government! But the nature of an industrial dispute is that, by definition, it must be conducted directly against the employer in question.

 

[Bromley boy]

Unfortunately, transport policy often gets ignored when people vote in general elections, despite a lot of people using one form of transport or another on a regular basis.

Very true.

But it perhaps becomes foremost in voters’ minds when the disruption becomes so significant and sustained that it begins to affect their lives and livelihoods.

Especially when there was no need for any of it in the first place!

 

[387star]

Deals on greater anglia and Mersey imminent

 

[Carlisle]

But doesn’t that reveal the RMT’s current strategy to be a sensible one? Be as difficult as possible at every turn and cause maximum possible disruption. People will become increasingly annoyed with the situation and in many cases will, quite rightly, blame government incompetence.

Not entirely, people I know who use Southern understandably don’t have a lot of time for govt or the TOC, but there’s also a fair bit of relief the RMT can’t neatly as easily cause such prolonged misery in future.