ATW Drivers Strike

[craigybagel]

Good job that ASLEF are so articulate about this one I'd get confused otherwise.

It's not ASLEF's job to keep the public informed - why bother, since they're not likely to gain much support whatever the circumstances. It's ASLEF's job to secure the best deal for it's members, which is what it's trying to do.

 

[A-driver]

Good job that ASLEF are so articulate about this one I'd get confused otherwise.

Regardless of how much Aslef say on the dispute, they can't force the press to print their side of the story and still won't gain public support. When a strike is announced people just want to blame the easy target-those striking-for being 'selfish' and disrupting their travel plans. Of course it's just as selfish to criticise someone for refusing to roll over and accept worse working conditions just so that it dosnt disrupt your own plans.

 

[TDK]

Good job that ASLEF are so articulate about this one I'd get confused otherwise.

Unfortunately the RMT released a quote to the media saying the strike was over pay - if the RMT drivers were on strike and ASLEF were not there would be a normal service.

 

[craigybagel]

Unfortunately the RMT released a quote to the media saying the strike was over pay - if the RMT drivers were on strike and ASLEF were not there would be a normal service.

In the north. Apparently there are a number of RMT drivers in Cardiff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Unfortunately the RMT released a quote to the media saying the strike was over pay - if the RMT drivers were on strike and ASLEF were not there would be a normal service.

I thought a co-ordinated union media response in this matter would have been in good order, as that the RMT and ASLEF made about DOO.

 

[kieron]

Regardless of how much Aslef say on the dispute, they can't force the press to print their side of the story and still won't gain public support.

They can force ASLEF's web team to print their side of the story. This is the most recent press release on the subject.

It describes the ballot result, and the planned industrial action, and says:

ASLEF’s executive committee said today: ‘The general secretary be instructed to advise the HR Director of Arriva Trains Wales that their failure to make an acceptable 2015 pay offer is not acceptable

I haven't been able to tell whether or not ASLEF feel it's all about money.

 

[FordFocus]

LTP - Long term planning diagram - duration until the next timetable change
STP - Short term planning for whatever reason a company feels that and STP is required, it could even be a 1m later departure on one train at one station with over 80 station stops on the diagram.

There is a huge difference between the 2 types of diagram.

For instance, I get STP diagrams on a frequent basis possibly every other day.

So, if a promise is made for a maximum turn length that takes a few years to finalise that should be the maximum turn length whether it is LTP or STP.

Now if there are special events or engineering work that are clearly going to extend diagrams then yes, possibly a longer diagram could be accepted for this scenario but such scenario needs to be set out with any agreements.

This may explain the difference between LTP and STP diagrams.

I'm aware of the differences as I regularly kept an eye on them during my time as a rep Good explanation for others though.

What I've seen happen, not as much these days but still happens at some TOCs is that they will cancel the booked diagrams with 72 hours notice and extend the day with the exact same content of work but with an additional trip to somewhere for an extra 2 hours. This is no good for childcare, for example if I'm booked 0600 - 1430 but they've cancelled the job and forcefully extended it by another 2 hours has caused problems for picking up children. Reason for extension? Shortage of staff. Not engineering work or diverted trains but because the company are short. Without sounding abrupt, a shortage of staff is not a guards, driver, station staff or other front line grades is not our problem, we aren't responsible for recruitment and established numbers and I should not have my booked hours forcefully extended for this reason inserted with compulsory overtime with minimal notice. I don't mind working overtime but it has to be a on mutually accepted basis (exclude spare movement). With ATW wanted to have a maximum day of 11:30 hours to this extended working is too much, open to abuse, especially on 100+ stops a day, it's a fatigue risk IMHO.

 

[455driver]

Another trick they do is, if you are allowed to move 2 hours from your (spare) start time but the job is 4 hours away is to cancel somebody else job, ie-

I am 04;00 spare and there is a job going with an 08;00 start time (so I cant be moved that far) is to cancel somebodies job starting at 06;00, reissue it as a STP (but with no alterations at all) give me that job (2 hours movement) and give the other driver the 08;00 job (again 2 hours movement as they are now spare because their job has been cancelled).

I have noticed this several times, especially at busy times like now, so I always check any cancelled diagrams to see if they have just been re-issued and if I notice they are wrong then I bring it to the attention of the LDC, not that they give a stuff, the sighs I get from then are unreal sometimes, especially as it is their job to check the diagrams!

 

[jayah]

Can we get rid of George Osborne, he failed to get 80% of votes in Tatton.

I have seen interviews with senior people in the TU movement indicating they could compromise on turnout if they were allowed secure workplace balloting. Postal ballots, mandated by law, make it a struggle to get high turnouts, which it is proposed become the excuse for invalidating the referendum if it also produces the 'wrong' response.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So folks what were saying is that ATW don't actually have enough drivers if they are trying to make existing drivers work longer short notice shifts?

The basic equations are the same in any industry pay staff more but have fewer of them , pay staff a bit less and have more of them . If ATW drivers were paid less there could be more of them so STP wouldn't be such an issue?

 

[TDK]

So folks what were saying is that ATW don't actually have enough drivers if they are trying to make existing drivers work longer short notice shifts?

The basic equations are the same in any industry pay staff more but have fewer of them , pay staff a bit less and have more of them . If ATW drivers were paid less there could be more of them so STP wouldn't be such an issue?

You just don't get it at all Gareth. Nowhere has anyone said that ATW are trying to make existing drivers work longer hours. Drivers in most TOC's are contracted at 35 hours a week and that stands. As for the shifts you can only have a certain amount of shifts over 8h45m as this is what a day length is on a 4 day 35 hour week.

As previously posted an STP can be for any reason, even a 1 minute difference in a day length so there will always be STP diagrams no matter how many drivers you have.

I feel you really do need to know more about what you are posting about for anyone in the grade to take you seriously as what you are posting is nowhere near the facts.
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I'm aware of the differences as I regularly kept an eye on them during my time as a rep Good explanation for others though.

What I've seen happen, not as much these days but still happens at some TOCs is that they will cancel the booked diagrams with 72 hours notice and extend the day with the exact same content of work but with an additional trip to somewhere for an extra 2 hours. This is no good for childcare, for example if I'm booked 0600 - 1430 but they've cancelled the job and forcefully extended it by another 2 hours has caused problems for picking up children. Reason for extension? Shortage of staff. Not engineering work or diverted trains but because the company are short. Without sounding abrupt, a shortage of staff is not a guards, driver, station staff or other front line grades is not our problem, we aren't responsible for recruitment and established numbers and I should not have my booked hours forcefully extended for this reason inserted with compulsory overtime with minimal notice. I don't mind working overtime but it has to be a on mutually accepted basis (exclude spare movement). With ATW wanted to have a maximum day of 11:30 hours to this extended working is too much, open to abuse, especially on 100+ stops a day, it's a fatigue risk IMHO.

You cant have an average week longer than 35 hours over a 12 week period as this is going against your contact so therefore if you have a week of 46 hours say it will have to average out or the company delivering this is in breach of contract surely?

 

[craigybagel]

You cant have an average week longer than 35 hours over a 12 week period as this is going against your contact so therefore if you have a week of 46 hours say it will have to average out or the company delivering this is in breach of contract surely?

But do STP amendments count in that calculation? Presumably so long as the link averages out at 35 hours or less on paper it's legal, even if lots of STP amendments are taking place that mean in practice its not?

So folks what were saying is that ATW don't actually have enough drivers if they are trying to make existing drivers work longer short notice shifts?

If anything its Conductors they're short of at the moment, but that's a whole separate issue. That said, we'll all see how short of drivers they are when the overtime ban kicks in.

 

[trainophile]

Is this strike on 4th Jan still going ahead? There's no specific mention of it on their Journey Check page. Vague information regarding an overtime ban which may reduce services from 28th Dec, but nothing to say there's no trains at all on 4th.

On both Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, Arriva Trains Wales services will cease earlier than usual.

No Arriva Trains Wales services operate on Christmas Day or Boxing Day (Friday 25 December and Saturday 26 December)

On Sunday 27 December and 01 January, some early morning services will also not operate.


Due to an overtime ban by driver unions, from Monday 28 December, some Arriva Trains Wales services may be affected.

 

[TDK]

But do STP amendments count in that calculation? Presumably so long as the link averages out at 35 hours or less on paper it's legal, even if lots of STP amendments are taking place that mean in practice its not?

Even so if a contact quotes 35 hours a week average over a 12 week period and the actual hours are over 35 this is a breach of contract.

 

[craigybagel]

Even so if a contact quotes 35 hours a week average over a 12 week period and the actual hours are over 35 this is a breach of contract.

I'm not sure about the drivers but I'm sure there's something in ours about STP that gets them out of trouble. It woukd be an interesting battle though if someone tried to take them on.
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Is this strike on 4th Jan still going ahead? There's no specific mention of it on their Journey Check page. Vague information regarding an overtime ban which may reduce services from 28th Dec, but nothing to say there's no trains at all on 4th.

Given the previous strikes have all been postponed (the last one at only a few hours prior) can you blame them from holding off announcing it until its definitely going ahead? They've still got over a week to reach agreement after all. Rest assured if it does get cancelled you'll know about it soon enough.

 

[TDK]

I'm not sure about the drivers but I'm sure there's something in ours about STP that gets them out of trouble. It woukd be an interesting battle though if someone tried to take them on.
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Given the previous strikes have all been postponed (the last one at only a few hours prior) can you blame them from holding off announcing it until its definitely going ahead? They've still got over a week to reach agreement after all. Rest assured if it does get cancelled you'll know about it soon enough.

However the overtime ban outside your contract is going ahead on 28th December until further notice, nothing said about that in the media whether it is still going ahead or not.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However the overtime ban outside your contract is going ahead on 28th December until further notice, nothing said about that in the media whether it is still going ahead or not.

Are there many of the drivers who regularly take on overtime duties to increase their total take-home pay....or will only a few of them find this to be a problem?

 

[455driver]

Are there many of the drivers who regularly take on overtime duties to increase their total take-home pay....or will only a few of them find this to be a problem?

I would assume its like most TOCs, you will have some overtime hoovers (suck up all the overtime they can get), some drivers will do a bit each week and you will have some drivers who will help out when needed but don't go looking for overtime, then there are those that wont work any overtime at all.

 

[TDK]

Are there many of the drivers who regularly take on overtime duties to increase their total take-home pay....or will only a few of them find this to be a problem?

IMO many will find this a problem but hopefully will sacrifice to adhere to the unions wishes.

 

[gareth950]

Rather randomly this dispute got a mention on the BBC Wales Today evening bulletin earlier. All was mentioned was that "drivers at ATW have started an overtime ban ahead of a planned strike in the new year over pay and conditions".

Well, yes, we're already halfway through the week long overtime ban and the strike has already been announced! This is news how?

Haven't ASLEF declared that the dispute is no longer over pay and is about shift lengths and other details that the public wouldn't understand? (myself included)

The overtime ban seems to be having the desired effect this week judging by the number of cancellations there have been on journey check 'due to a shortage of drivers/train crew'.

 

[pt15sb]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Looks like the strike for the 4th is going through. ATW site currently says:

Monday 4 January - Arriva Trains Wales services WILL NOT OPERATE due to train driver unions industrial action (strike).
Early morning services on Tuesday 5 January may also be impacted. An on-going overtime ban may also impact other timetabled services.

 

[craigybagel]

Rather randomly this dispute got a mention on the BBC Wales Today evening bulletin earlier. All was mentioned was that "drivers at ATW have started an overtime ban ahead of a planned strike in the new year over pay and conditions".

Well, yes, we're already halfway through the week long overtime ban and the strike has already been announced! This is news how?

I thinks it's news now because ATW have only today put it up on their website with the message, as posted by

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Looks like the strike for the 4th is going through. ATW site currently says:

Monday 4 January - Arriva Trains Wales services WILL NOT OPERATE due to train driver unions industrial action (strike).
Early morning services on Tuesday 5 January may also be impacted. An on-going overtime ban may also impact other timetabled services.

Before today they were only mentioning the overtime ban.

 

[atw driver]

I don't see the strike being called off this time as the h.r director has succeeded in upsetting both the drivers and also the aslef e.c.

 

[trainophile]

Will the guards be penalised by losing pay even if they didn't vote for strike action, as they won't be needed if the drivers aren't working?

 

[313103]

Will the guards be penalised by losing pay even if they didn't vote for strike action, as they won't be needed if the drivers aren't working?

Guards pay will not be affected by this.

 

[A-driver]

Will the guards be penalised by losing pay even if they didn't vote for strike action, as they won't be needed if the drivers aren't working?

No. Same the other way round. Anyone who books on for duty as normal will be paid. If no services are running they will sit spare. Same if non Union drivers book on or if drivers book on when a signallers strike suspends all services. The only people who will loose pay are those formally striking.

 

[trainophile]

Glad to hear it. Thanks for the info.

 

[craigybagel]

Guards pay will not be affected by this.

Not quite - RMT still haven't ballotted the guards on which of our two offers to accept (one is the same pay rise as everyone else, the other is a lower payrise with an extra day AL each year) and seemingly won't be doing so until the drivers have reached agreement with the company.

Also, no overtime will be offered to guards on Tuesday for jobs uncovered. Admittedly both are small sacrifices compared to the drivers losing a whole days pay though.

Not to mention the smart remarks from the passengers in the days before and after

 

[313103]

Not quite - RMT still haven't ballotted the guards on which of our two offers to accept (one is the same pay rise as everyone else, the other is a lower payrise with an extra day AL each year) and seemingly won't be doing so until the drivers have reached agreement with the company.

Also, no overtime will be offered to guards on Tuesday for jobs uncovered. Admittedly both are small sacrifices compared to the drivers losing a whole days pay though.

Not to mention the smart remarks from the passengers in the days before and after

Sorry Craigybagel, i must of misread the posters question, I thought he meant losing pay as a result of the drivers dispute. Sorry about that.

This company seems to have brought a lot of this and other issues on themselves. In the three weeks leading up to christmas many trains were cancelled because the company wont allow leave to be carried over into the next year so drivers & guards took the leave they had left before 2016 started, the station staff likewise, so numerous stations were left without dispatchers at certain times and the booking offices likewise. I have a couple of days left over and waiting to see what the director says. If the answer is NO they can kiss any goodwill from me in 2016.

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry Craigybagel, i must of misread the posters question, I thought he meant losing pay as a result of the drivers dispute. Sorry about that.

This company seems to have brought a lot of this and other issues on themselves. In the three weeks leading up to christmas many trains were cancelled because the company wont allow leave to be carried over into the next year so drivers & guards took the leave they had left before 2016 started, the station staff likewise, so numerous stations were left without dispatchers at certain times and the booking offices likewise. I have a couple of days left over and waiting to see what the director says. If the answer is NO they can kiss any goodwill from me in 2016.

To be fair looking back I think it was me who misread your response! Either way there's no need for apologies, especially as you guys on the platforms are probably copping even more flak than us guards are over the current issues.
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Meanwhile, we're currently looking at 42 full cancellations and 24 part cancellations on Sunday due to lack of traincrew, even before the full closure in Monday.