BR brand names - still exist?

[LE Greys]

Count me as someone else who thinks that the loss of the INTERCITY brand was a pity.

And me, although I'd prefer to have seen it applied somewhat wider, to all Class 1 trains as opposed to just those that operate between sectors. Not applying it to RR Express or various NSE services caused a quality divide to develop between the two, as anyone who travelled on a 158 or 166 at the time found out, but I think that had more to do with management differences than anything.

If I was running a TOC, I'd base (but not exactly) my livery on that of the pre-grouping or pre-nationalisation colours of the earlier company, but not quite exactly. Plenty of people have done mock-up examples in Photoshop (my favourite by Matthew Cousins can be found here).

 

[fairysdad]

May I add what may possibly be considered a controversial comment...

If BR carried on (but bought the same trains that privatisation did), my opinion is that the new trains would not have the old BR liveries, such as a Pendolino in Intercity swallow livery. I actually think that the old Intercity livery looks somewhat dated now, the same with the Regional Railways livery, and hope that BR would have had a bit of a rebrand, possibly with the designers of the current liveries (such as Stagecoach's liveries for SWT and EMT - I really like EMT's HST livery!) having had a hand in it.

I'm not saying that the 'Intercity' or 'Regional Railways' brands should've been scrapped, more that the liveries would have been updated if BR continued.

 

[jon0844]

The liveries were dated and 'boring' and I'm sure that they'd have been updated. I think that's a given, as if you look at the trains, the interiors, and the stations (and the furniture) then it did all look a bit grim in the 80s and early 90s.

I guess NSE was quite radical at the time, but everything else looked - well - old and the sort of thing you'd expect from a nationalised operation.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I still find the clear lines of the NSE toothpaste and Inter-City Swallow liveries far more pleasing to the eye than most current liveries. I find the combination of plain bodyside with garishly coloured doors and oversized logo's quite ugly.

That said, I'm sure liveries would have been updated over time whoever ran the railway.

Seat Moquettes seem to be getting progressively more boring. Compared to Trojan, Bournemouth Blue or even Blue Blaze, later designs seem positively vanilla (although in defence of the modern era, the pink design used in InterCity sets towards the end of the BR was also a bit uninspiring).

 

[OuterDistant]

Probably splitting hairs a bit, but I always thought that the later InterCity "Swallow" livery made the earlier version look like a cheap "knock-off"!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Probably splitting hairs a bit, but I always thought that the later InterCity "Swallow" livery made the earlier version look like a cheap "knock-off"!

I agree, 'Swallow' was much better than 'executive' ('executive' being the livery that looks like swallow but with the old-style InterCity125 font, which looked good on the old blue&grey but not with the swallow colour scheme).

INTERCITY Swallow and the old Blue&Grey InterCity 125 were both great liveries, but the Blue&Grey might have suffered from other stock at the time being blue&grey also.

 

[Oswyntail]

Count me as someone else who thinks that the loss of the INTERCITY brand was a pity.

Me too - InterCity services should ALL be marketed under this brand, and clearly designated as such on the stock - but with the relevant TOCs livery, perhaps. The purpose of the "branding" is to differentiate the product, not the provider. (And I would argue that a similar brand should be created for Intra-Urban and Inner-City services, across all TOCs)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I travelled in an expensively branded new Railjet set recently (Austrian OBB).
I was appalled to find that the designer had plastered the stencil-type Railjet logo in enormous letters diagonally up the coach bodysides.
This meant many seats looked out through a patchwork of black lines, spoiling the view entirely.
And the seats did not often line up with the windows, even in First.
And the design was apparently chosen from some kind of public poll.

 

[LE Greys]

I travelled in an expensively branded new Railjet set recently (Austrian OBB).
I was appalled to find that the designer had plastered the stencil-type Railjet logo in enormous letters diagonally up the coach bodysides.
This meant many seats looked out through a patchwork of black lines, spoiling the view entirely.
And the seats did not often line up with the windows, even in First.
And the design was apparently chosen from some kind of public poll.

It's hard to get the size right.

IMO, IC Swallow was just about right, with passenger vehicles having much smaller writing than on locos. The current Southern got it badly wrong by being too small, while the pre-nationalisation Southern was fine on locos, but coaches and MUs had no logos at all. Making them too big looks childish, except for Big Nex/Large Logo perhaps, and it really ought to be avoided if you want to maintain a businesslike image.

 

[Class 33]

Yes I think it would be a good idea if the Intercity branding of train services were brought back.

Thing is though nowadays that there are not as many fast express/limited stop services as there used to be. Most Greater Anglia services from London-Norwich now stop just several minutes into the journey at Stratford. And some of the Virgin Pendolino services out of London calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, etc. Basically these such services are not really what you'd call fast Intercity services. However they're by no means slow all-stations stopping services. So they could still get away with these being branded Intercity services. However for the true limited stop express services such as the London Kings Cross-Edinburgh or Hull services - first stop out of London being York, or the London Euston-Manchester services - first stop Stoke-on-Trent, then these could be branded(or at least listed in the timetables and on station departure screens) as Intercity Express services signifying that these are faster limited stop services.

And the Regional Railways brand could be brought back for of course the slower regional services serving smaller towns as well as the big cities. Such as the Cardiff-Portsmouths, Cardiff-Holyheads, etc, etc.

On a side note with mention of the old BR Blue & Yellow livery on the HST's. I was hoping a set or two(or at least just some sets of power cars) would have been reliveried into this iconic livery to celebrate the Intercity 125/HST's 30th birthday back in 2006! Nope it didn't happen!

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes I think it would be a good idea if the Intercity branding of train services were brought back.

Thing is though nowadays that there are not as many fast express/limited stop services as there used to be. Most Greater Anglia services from London-Norwich now stop just several minutes into the journey at Stratford. And some of the Virgin Pendolino services out of London calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, etc. Basically these such services are not really what you'd call fast Intercity services.

West Coast services have always stopped at the likes of Watford Junction and Milton Keynes, even in Intercity days. The West Coast services are always portrayed as being more limited stop now than they ever were in loco hauled days, and they're more frequent, so I think you will find that, with an increase in train frequencies across all major main line services - West Coast, East Coast, Midland Mainline, Great Western and Crosscountry - since BR days that there would now be far more trains running each day that would fall under the Intercity banner.

I fail to see how a service that routinely provides, say, Euston to Coventry journey times of 59 minutes, with just one intermediate stop, can be deemed to be anything other than a fast Intercity service hock:

 

[GingerbreadMan]

I did read somewhere I while ago that new franchises will be 'encouraged' to take non-branded names such as 'East Coast, Great Western etc...'

Not sure if this is being implimented but it would be nice to see Intercity and Regional back in use.

Customers don't understand what HST or Sprinter's are, but do understand what local and Intercity trains are. This in itself would be beneficial to use these names.

Maybe a slight restyle of the Intercity logo would make it fit for modern use?

 

[Class 33]

West Coast services have always stopped at the likes of Watford Junction and Milton Keynes, even in Intercity days. The West Coast services are always portrayed as being more limited stop now than they ever were in loco hauled days, and they're more frequent, so I think you will find that, with an increase in train frequencies across all major main line services - West Coast, East Coast, Midland Mainline, Great Western and Crosscountry - since BR days that there would now be far more trains running each day that would fall under the Intercity banner.

I fail to see how a service that routinely provides, say, Euston to Coventry journey times of 59 minutes, with just one intermediate stop, can be deemed to be anything other than a fast Intercity service hock:

Well yes I'd agree that the large bulk of the mainline long distance services on the West Coast, East, Midland Mainline and Cross Country services can be described as fast Intercity services. Bit debatable on some of the First Great Western HST services though. For instance the London-Bristol's, and London-Cheltenham Spa's stopping so frequently for a fair portion of the journey. Some of these services are slower than they were 30 years ago! But I guess this issue will be resolved when the GWML electrification and revamped services begin in 2017. That said though the current services could still fall under the Intercity banner.

But for the proper true limited stop fast express services such as the ones I mentioned, these could be under the Intercity Express banner.

It is a shame that Britain introduced the Intercity branding of train services all those years ago. But yet it is no longer used here. Whilst it is used in other countries such as Germany.

 

[PR1Berske]

May I add what may possibly be considered a controversial comment...

If BR carried on (but bought the same trains that privatisation did), my opinion is that the new trains would not have the old BR liveries, such as a Pendolino in Intercity swallow livery. I actually think that the old Intercity livery looks somewhat dated now, the same with the Regional Railways livery, and hope that BR would have had a bit of a rebrand, possibly with the designers of the current liveries (such as Stagecoach's liveries for SWT and EMT - I really like EMT's HST livery!) having had a hand in it.

I'm not saying that the 'Intercity' or 'Regional Railways' brands should've been scrapped, more that the liveries would have been updated if BR continued.

Don't think that's controversial at all.

As the years progressed, so have fashions in typefaces and graphic design.

I can imagine "Intercity" going through all the usual changes we've seen over 20 odd years - small case in sans serif font, then just "IC" surrounded in coloured circles, before reverting back to "INTERCITY"

 

[Manchester77]

I have a question about intercity branding. I've heard that the old loco hauled services on the WCML (86s, 87s, 90s) were to be marketed under the brand of "intercity 175". Well considering how successful and well known the intercity 125 brand was, why did they never continue through and use it?
Thanks
M77

 

[jon0844]

How about this?

Intercity

(Don't believe anyone who says I copied this from an actual tender created by National Express)

 

[Skimble19]

Are you sure you didn't, Jon?

I can't believe people are still actually saying Intercity should be brought back, move on - it won't happen!

Whilst I agree a 365 looked far better in NSE livery and that NSE was probably the best thing that happened in the South East it's also unfortunately gone, although DfT seems to be attempting to create a NSE v2 with the new Thameslink franchise. There's still plenty of NSE branding on the GN route - go down to Moorgate for the full experience!

 

[PR1Berske]

How about this?

Intercity

(Don't believe anyone who says I copied this from an actual tender created by National Express)

 

[sprinterguy]

Probably splitting hairs a bit, but I always thought that the later InterCity "Swallow" livery made the earlier version look like a cheap "knock-off"!

I personally thought that Intercity Executive livery did a much better job of integrating the yellow warning panel into the livery and was better suited than Intercity Swallow to the HSTs, 47s, 86s and 87s in that respect.

However, IMO in all other respects Intercity Swallow livery gave an impression of elegance and class that was lacking in the Executive scheme, and it looked absolutely superb on the Class 91s and mark 4 sets it was designed for. The break away from rail alphabet and the double arrow logo was refreshing as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well yes I'd agree that the large bulk of the mainline long distance services on the West Coast, East, Midland Mainline and Cross Country services can be described as fast Intercity services. Bit debatable on some of the First Great Western HST services though. For instance the London-Bristol's, and London-Cheltenham Spa's stopping so frequently for a fair portion of the journey. Some of these services are slower than they were 30 years ago! But I guess this issue will be resolved when the GWML electrification and revamped services begin in 2017. That said though the current services could still fall under the Intercity banner.

But for the proper true limited stop fast express services such as the ones I mentioned, these could be under the Intercity Express banner.

That’s a good point. I agree that an “Intercity Express” brand may well be a useful marketing tool to differentiate the limited stop services from the slower “Intercity” services such as Paddington to Cheltenham, and the Cotswolds route to Worcester and Hereford, the latter of which at least used to be an NSE route anyway (And wasn’t it a Provincial service in the eighties?).

 

[paul1609]

I cant believe that people are still hankering back to something that even in its day was a bodge to fix the books. Ever wondered why Gatwick Express was a InterCity franchise whilst the Brighton and Bournemouth Expresses were NSE? it was because Gatwick Express was hugely profitable and without it Intercity couldnt ever have claimed to make a profit.
In this day and age how could anybody claim XC to be an intercity operator? Its a service of frequently stopping DMUs with a trolley service, its no different to TPE, or loads of services operated by SE, SWT, SN or FGW!

 

[sprinterguy]

In this day and age how could anybody claim XC to be an intercity operator? Its a service of frequently stopping DMUs with a trolley service, its no different to TPE, or loads of services operated by SE, SWT, SN or FGW!

Crosscountry connects a number of major cities, within a single journey. Hence it operates Inter-city services. There's nothing stating that its present method of operation is the correct one, and we can always aspire to something better.

 

[paul1609]

On that criteria the Brighton to Portsmouth service currently shamefully operated by class 313s with no toilets would be included in your Inter-City franchise.

 

[370001]

I firmly believe that, as part of every franchise agreement, the franchisee should be obliged to paint at least one of their trains in a "heritage" livery, but only if ever worn by that particular class, e.g.

125 : Swallow or BR Blue/Grey
225 : Swallow
165/166/465/466/442/159 : NSE "Networker" style
142/144/150/156/158 : Regional Railways

 

[Gareth]

To those who think that 'InterCity' is totally incompatible with the 21st Century; do you find brand names like Scotrail or Merseyrail weird & antiquated too?

If the Merseyrail system had been branded as First Merseyside Electrics or something like that for that last 15 years or so and some forumers on here were suggesting it should revert to its old name, I bet some people would be saying the same things about not looking and the brand not being workable in the year 2012.

 

[paul1609]

I dont have a problem with the use of the term Intercity today but we have to acknowledge that the UK Railway scene has moved on. If it has to mean something to passengers it has to be unique across all regions.
many of the services that were intercity/long distance in nature in BRs days no longer are. FGW are primarily a london Commuter railway these days, XC was always a secondary Inter City route but these days is a provincial mid distance franchise with the average passenger travelling 30 miles. MML and GE arent really InterCity anymore either.

 

[jon0844]

Intercity works because it describes the type of service, just as you might get 'local/metro' trains.

You can still have it operated by a TOC if you have to - but if you have a station that has slow and fast trains to the same cities - why not make it clearer which ones are the faster trains (usually with more facilities too)?

Why not announce the 1000 Intercity East Coast (or 1000 East Coast Intercity) service to Newcastle or the 10000 Intercity Virgin Trains / Virgin Trains Intercity service to Manchester - or whatever.

It doesn't necessarily mean a single livery, but at least the use of a recognised logo to determine the longer distance/faster services that usually command a premium at the same time.

 

[LE Greys]

Surely the test should be whether it is a Class 1 train or not, therefore including a lot of routes in what would have been NSE, RR or ScotRail. However, it might be more effective to brand those as 'Express' rather than Intercity (which is pretty descriptive). With actual branding on trains, the test should be how many miles the train works as Class 1 vs Class 2.

 

[yorksrob]

MML and GE arent really InterCity anymore either.

I'm not sure I'd agree that this could be said about MML. Admittedly it does have a lot of stops and isn't particularly fast, however whenever I travel on it, the majority of passengers seem to be travelling between the large urban centres rather than into them from the hinterland.

 

[PR1Berske]

 

[Skimble19]

I firmly believe that, as part of every franchise agreement, the franchisee should be obliged to paint at least one of their trains in a "heritage" livery, but only if ever worn by that particular class, e.g.

125 : Swallow or BR Blue/Grey
225 : Swallow
165/166/465/466/442/159 : NSE "Networker" style
142/144/150/156/158 : Regional Railways

I can't tell if you're being serious or not..

Although on a personal note, I'd love to see the 365s returned to NSE livery.. It suited them perfectly.