Break of Journey query

[mirodo]

Quick query folks:

I originally booked an Advance ticket from London to Blackburn changing at Leeds. This was to be a trip to visit a friend.

I've since been invited to a business meeting in Leeds the day before my original journey. It makes no sense to go back to London after the meeting only to head back via Leeds the following day, so I've paid the £10 admin fee and changed my ticket to the day of the meeting.

Will I be able to travel London - Leeds, attend the meeting and then continue my onward journey to Blackburn later in the day? I have a reservation for a specific train for the London - Leeds part of the journey, but there's no reservation for the Leeds - Blackburn part of the journey.

 

[SS4]

Technically no. Advance tickets forbid BoJ and staff would be suspicious if it took that long to use the station facilities at Leeds
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you still hold a London to Blackburn ticket you're not allowed to stop short at Leeds either.

 

[bb21]

Will I be able to travel London - Leeds, attend the meeting and then continue my onward journey to Blackburn later in the day? I have a reservation for a specific train for the London - Leeds part of the journey, but there's no reservation for the Leeds - Blackburn part of the journey.

Unless the meeting takes place on station premises, then I'm afraid you're breaking your journey, which is not allowed with any Advance ticket.

 

[34D]

Unless the meeting takes place on station premises, then I'm afraid you're breaking your journey, which is not allowed with any Advance ticket.

Whether you'll get away with it is another matter, however.

 

[mirodo]

Thanks all.

Whether you'll get away with it is another matter, however.

I would never dream of attempting to break the T&Cs, if that's what you're suggesting!



But if I did, what would be the punishment if i got caught?

 

[SS4]

Not 100% but an excess to the cheapest ticket which is valid for BoJ

edit: Condition 16 of the NRCoC agrees

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used.

 

[mirodo]

So, 100% of the cheapest London - Blackburn fare? Or Leeds - Blackburn?

 

[SS4]

London - Blackburn.

I don't have nfm11 up at the moment so can't tell you how much that would be but I suspect it's the price off an off-peak single

 

[wintonian]

For finishing short/ break of journey the difference between the cost of the ticket held and the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The difference in price between the ticket you have and £78.30 (London - Blackburn SVS)

 

[mirodo]

Hmm... not worth the risk then, even if my conscience allowed it!

 

[calc7]

How is this interpreted if someone were to hold a dirt cheap Advance ticket, say Liverpool Lime St to Stoke-on-Trent that had allowed reservations via London and was found exiting Euston having only used one of those legs?

 

[wintonian]

How is this interpreted if someone were to hold a dirt cheap Advance ticket, say Liverpool Lime St to Stoke-on-Trent that had allowed reservations via London and was found exiting Euston having only used one of those legs?

Assuming the ticket is otherwise valid (WEBTIS error etc.) the clue is here:

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used.

Possibly involving quite some time with a calculator.

 

[calc7]

Possibly involving quite some time with a calculator.

Indeed - and the fact that a Liverpool to London SVR is valid via SOT means it could end up being just that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The difference in price between the ticket you have and £78.30 (London - Blackburn SVS)

Plus the £10 change of travel plans fee.

 

[wintonian]

Plus the £10 change of travel plans fee.

I suspect that is less likly to be charged on-board.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just a quick thought:-
You have said that you bought an advance ticket, and then that you changed it for another advance on the more useful date.

Now, most people on this forum (including me) would take that to refer to the highly restricted "Advance" ticket which is marked "Advance" at the top left. That is the type of ticket which the replies and advice on here have been referring to.

However, many passengers use the word 'advance' in its every-day sense to mean that they bought it before the date of travel. If that is what you've done, and it is marked 'Anytime', Off-Peak' etc then we should be able to give you more welcome replies.
I'm sure you probably do have an 'Advance' ticket, but its worth confirming.

 

[clagmonster]

Plus the £10 change of travel plans fee.

where do the terms state that the admin fee is chargable for an invalid break of journey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For finishing short/ break of journey the difference between the cost of the ticket held and the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The difference in price between the ticket you have and £78.30 (London - Blackburn SVS)

It depends on your definition of 'available'. In my opinion, assuming the London station at which Mirodo commences his journey has an open booking office, the saver single ceases to be available when Mirodo chooses to board the train without paying the excess at said booking office. In which case, the excess would be the cost of the open single (£153.00) less the fare already paid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

where do the terms state that the admin fee is chargable for an invalid break of journey?....

A change of travel plans is subject to a £10 admin fee. If breaking your journey is not a change of travel plans, you bought the wrong ticket in the first place.

 

[clagmonster]

A change of travel plans is subject to a £10 admin fee. If breaking your journey is not a change of travel plans, you bought the wrong ticket in the first place.

On the National Rail website, the admin fee is only mentioned under "Changing the time or date of travel". Please could you point me to a source which states that the admin fee is chargable for all changes of travel plan.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Pretty sure it's in the FRPP, no access at the minute though, could check on Monday unless someone else wants to look it up before then.

That said, if you are breaking your journey, are you not changing the time you are travelling????

As a side note, it is clearly not just time and date as the Advance FAQs state that changes of seat on board the same train are subject to the £10 admin fee.

 

[clagmonster]

Pretty sure it's in the FRPP, no access at the minute though, could check on Monday unless someone else wants to look it up before then.

That said, if you are breaking your journey, are you not changing the time you are travelling????

As a side note, it is clearly not just time and date as the Advance FAQs state that changes of seat on board the same train are subject to the £10 admin fee.

I've wondered about the change of travel time issue. However, if you are travelling on unreservable connecting legs, then you have no booked train so you are valid on anything. Also, if you have a long connection time you could leave the station premised and return in time for your booked train. Most of the time it is a valid point though.

Interestingly, as far as I am aware, nowhere do the publicly accessible conditions suggest that the seat reservation can be changed at all (within the same train), so in this regard the manual is more generous.

 

[34D]

Hmm... not worth the risk then, even if my conscience allowed it!

How long are you wanting to spend in Leeds, out of interest?

 

[mirodo]

Thanks for the replies all. To clarify a few points:

1) @DaveNewcastle it is an Advance ticket.
2) The plan was to travel on the correct service for which I have a London - Leeds reservation on a specified train, then spend a few hours in Leeds at my meeting, before continuing the journey Leeds - Blackburn. The latter portion does not have a reservation or a specified train I must catch as they aren't available on that service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How long are you wanting to spend in Leeds, out of interest?

Depending on how long the meeting goes on for it will be in the order of 5 hours or so.

 

[Clip]

Without saying that you should do this but how about just buying a separate Leeds to Blackburn ticket?

 

[34D]

If it were me, I would board the train 5 hours later at Leeds, show the guard only my London-Blackburn ticket (and not the London-Leeds reservation coupon, unless asked) then in the extremely unlikely event that the guard says it isn't valid, he'll sell you a Leeds-Blackburn ticket.

If that happens I will be amazed.

 

[bb21]

If it were me, I would board the train 5 hours later at Leeds, show the guard only my London-Blackburn ticket (and not the London-Leeds reservation coupon, unless asked) then in the extremely unlikely event that the guard says it isn't valid, he'll sell you a Leeds-Blackburn ticket.

If that happens I will be amazed.

Yes, the probability of the guard for the unserved leg asking to see the reservation is small, however if the OP runs into a knowledgeable guard then he runs the risk of being excessed to a flexible walk-on fare that allows break of journey all the way from London, which is definitely not cheap.

It will be very difficult to explain a 5-hour gap at the interchange station when the connecting service runs hourly.

I must emphasise that the forum does not condone breaking the terms of the ticket you hold, which you will be if stopping for a meeting at Leeds for 5 hours.

 

[John @ home]

I must emphasise that the forum does not condone breaking the terms of the ticket you hold

Agreed.

which you will be if stopping for a meeting at Leeds for 5 hours.

Usually. Not always. A necessary element of breaking your journey is leaving the station. If you hired the meeting room in East Coast's Leeds First Class Lounge, you would not need to break your journey by leaving the station. If you all gathered round a table in Leeds station Wetherspoons for your meeting, you would not need to break your journey.

If you hold the meeting in the Queens Hotel, I'm less sure of the position. It was certainly part of the station when it was a British Transport Hotel, but that may have changed. It may depend on whether it has been sold or is rented to the current hotel operator.

But if your meeting is across the road from Leeds station, then you're breaking your journey, and that's not allowed!

 

[Paul Kelly]

If you hold the meeting in the Queens Hotel, I'm less sure of the position. It was certainly part of the station when it was a British Transport Hotel, but that may have changed. It may depend on whether it has been sold or is rented to the current hotel operator.

I was thinking of suggesting that! But would it be possible to get into the Queens Hotel without leaving the station premises? As far as I remember the only entrance is off City Square, and you would need to go out of the station premises to get to it. Or maybe you could use a back entrance to the hotel - ISTR there might be one off the concourse opposite Wetherspoons, near the left luggage office.

 

[John @ home]

would it be possible to get into the Queens Hotel without leaving the station premises?

The answer to that would require detailed knowledge of the station property. I suspect few people have that.

maybe you could use a back entrance to the hotel - ISTR there might be one off the concourse opposite Wetherspoons, near the left luggage office.

That entrance was certainly open in 2006, but I think it may have been closed to make way for Sainsburys. Another possibility could be that the pavement on the south side of New Station St may form part of the station property, in which case access to the hotel via its hairdressers would not involve leaving the station.

More generally, I do not think a passenger is breaking their journey if the physical layout of the station requires them to leave and then re-enter it to access another part of the station. For example, a South Milford - York passenger changing at Micklefield must walk down Station Hill and along Great North Road to change platforms.

 

[bb21]

Usually. Not always. A necessary element of breaking your journey is leaving the station. If you hired the meeting room in East Coast's Leeds First Class Lounge, you would not need to break your journey by leaving the station. If you all gathered round a table in Leeds station Wetherspoons for your meeting, you would not need to break your journey.

I agree completely, hence my reference to station premises in Post 3. Given that it is a pre-planned meeting, I'm afraid that the OP might not have many options.