Breaking a journey over multiple days

[BackOnTheTrain]

Hi all,

If I purchase an off-peak return ticket, is it possible to break the return journey twice overnight?

I've been trying to find some concrete rules about this, but I'm struggling.

My route would be:

Day 1: Alfreton - York (changing at Sheffield)
Day 2: York - Leeds
Day 3: Leeds - Sheffield
Day 4: Sheffield - Alfreton

All travel would be between 10am and 7pm each day.

TIA!

 

[bb21]

You may break your journey any number of times within the validity period of the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Absolutely; the return portion is valid for a month and always allows break(s) of journey. If you want reservations, any competent ticket office with access to the central reservation system can do this for you.

For Sheffield-York, you might want to avoid XC at certain times as they can be overcrowded; there are some HSTs and doubled-up units, if you can say roughly when you are travelling....

York-Leeds likewise can be very busy, but if you do have to stand it's only 21 minutes.

Leeds-Sheffield again you may wish to avoid certain XC services, but you will get a seat on the (non-reserveable) Northern trains via Barnsley if you don't mind a few minutes extra. It may also be interesting to take a slightly different route.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Brilliant, thank you so much.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

For anyone following... I was made to buy a single ticket today, for Sheffield to Alfreton, because the conductor yesterday scribbled the date on when he checked my ticket. Today's conductor said I could break the return journey but that the breaks must all be on the same day, and not overnight. If I wanted to break overnight then I needed the open return.

 

[najaB]

For anyone following... I was made to buy a single ticket today, for Sheffield to Alfreton, because the conductor yesterday scribbled the date on when he checked my ticket.

Writing the date on it doesn't invalidate the ticket. Write to Northern and ask for a refund for the ticket you were forced to buy.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Writing the date on it doesn't invalidate the ticket. Write to Northern and ask for a refund for the ticket you were forced to buy.

How did you guess it was Northern? Thank you for the advice.

 

[Crossover]

Unfortunately you got a conductor who isn't aware of the rules and you shouldn't have had to buy another ticket. As najaB has said, write to Northern to request a refund

 

[najaB]

How did you guess it was Northern?

They have form for it...

 

[sheff1]

If I wanted to break overnight then I needed the open return.

What on earth do they mean by "the open return" ? :roll:

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

What on earth do they mean by "the open return" ? :roll:

I may have mis-quoted that -- I haven't had much sleep the past few days. He looked up the price for me and said the ticket I "should" have bought was £40-ish, so what he actually meant was the "anytime return" I think -- I have a disabled adult railcard, if anyone checks the price.

When you buy tickets via East Midlands Trains' website there is an option for "open return" if you know how to get to it, and then that lists "off-peak return", "anytime return" and "first anytime return" ticket types to select. So I'm not sure now if he said "open return" or if I just have it stuck in my head from the website.

He also mentioned about how I had a "saver" return and that's why it wasn't valid... my ticket says "off-peak return" on it, no mention of saver on it at all, so I tried to question him on that, but I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere on that front and just bought the ticket for the minimum of fuss.

 

[najaB]

He also mentioned about how I had a "saver" return and that's why it wasn't valid... my ticket says "off-peak return" on it, no mention of saver on it at all, so I tried to question him on that, but I could see I wasn't going to get anywhere on that front and just bought the ticket for the minimum of fuss.

Saver is the old name for an Off-Peak, and I *think* that the BOJ rules were different for a Saver.

 

[bnm]

just bought the ticket for the minimum of fuss.

Each to their own.

Maximum of fuss from me in all such instances now. I do appreciate though that assertiveness toward someone in a position of authority isn't easy.

I was denied exit at a gateline yesterday with an Off Peak Single after making an overnight break of journey. It wasn't until I was passed to a third member of staff that I was allowed on my way. I most certainly wasn't going to pay a penny more, which is what was originally requested. Nor was I cowed by the 'threat', "You're lucky no RPI is here today."

 

[Crossover]

This is simplification for you! Just wait until Yorkie gets on this thread!

Saver Return (SVR) is now Off Peak Return. On the return, on this flow, you may break your journey any number of times, up until the end of the validity of the ticket (1 month)

The Anytime Return (which I think used to be an Open Return...an Open no longer exists and just confuses matters) would allow virtually exactly the same as the SVR, apart from it would be valid before 09:30 Mon to Fri (where the SVR has a restriction)

Confused? You will be

 

[Camden]

No need for confusion, just the OP post the full details of their ticket here so the validity of what happened can be checked.

As far as I can tell, either the OP had a day return, or a return with a special restriction, or the guard was wrong.

 

[bnm]

No need for confusion, just the OP post the full details of their ticket here so the validity of what happened can be checked.

As far as I can tell, either the OP had a day return, or a return with a special restriction, or the guard was wrong.

Stated in the OP that an Off Peak Return was being purchased. Re-stated in post #11 that they held an Off-Peak Return. Just for further clarification the guard that made him pay for another unnecessary ticket referred to his original ticket as a Saver.

Not sure what more ticket details you require. There are no Day Returns between Alfreton and York. What special restriction can you think of that would be attached to the return portion of an Off Peak Return?

As far as I can tell, guard was wrong.

 

[reb0118]

Was this on the outward or return portion of your journey?

Having gone back to the start of the thread I now see it is the return that you are referring to. In that case you were right & the guard was wrong. If he held a genuine believe that the SVR did not allow overnight BOJ he should have excessed to the anytime return rather than sell a new ticket but this is academic as both actions would have been wrong.

Contact Northern for a refund.

 

[bakerstreet]

I think this might be a common misconception amongst guards.

For example earlier today I was on the return part of an off peak return which had already been part used and dated as such for a previous day. Today I'm continuing that journey. .

As I usually try to be upfront about these things I approached the guard as I boarded and showed him the (already) dated ticket for a previous day and said I was continuing my journey today. 'Officially this isn't allowed. Once it's been dated on another day it must be completed that day'.

He marked the ticket and let me use it. We were both very polite - he genuinely believes that is the rule and I don't like telling others how to do their job where I can avoid it especially as I have no rank to pull. But on this occasion no extra fare was asked for just incorrect advice given.

Is there anywhere that this is documented in the public domain as it would be helpful.
I really understand the problem. If a guard doesn't know or has been incorrectly trained then a ticket marked by a guard for travel on a previous day would be a no brainier 'not valid'.

I will contact the company but won't dob this particular guard in it - they trained him after all and having seen his customer service during the journey he is genuinely trying to do an excellent job for his company.

 

[sheff1]

As far as I can tell, either the OP had a day return, or a return with a special restriction, or the guard was wrong.

The OP has already stated what ticket they had. How could they have a day return when no such ticket exists for the flow in question ?

What "special restriction" do you feel may apply ? All Off Peak Returns have an associated Restriction Code and there is nothing "special" about any of them.

The guard was wrong.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Thank you all for the replies, I'll be posting the tickets to Northern in the morning. The guard did find me the cheapest fare to charge, and applied my railcard discount too -- both without my asking, he just went through all the options and found the cheapest. So like bakerstreet says above, I think it's just bad training in that he doesn't know the ticket was valid, but aside from that he was as helpful as he could possibly have been.

I've attached a pic of my tickets for those questioning what I actually bought, and you can see the time I was travelling too (off-peak) from the ticket I had to buy today.

 

[Jonfun]

Provided it's an off peak return, and not an off peak day return, there's no reason you can't break a journey multiple times over the validity of the ticket. Yes, it opens up the possibility of fraud, and I saw one which was almost certainly someone using an SVR as a season this afternoon. But that's a problem for the industry, not the Guard.

Railway staff who say otherwise do nothing but diminish the case for having properly trained staff on board the train and at stations. Sad, really, but at least the majority of staff out there do know their stuff.

 

[embers25]

Thank you all for the replies, I'll be posting the tickets to Northern in the morning. The guard did find me the cheapest fare to charge, and applied my railcard discount too -- both without my asking, he just went through all the options and found the cheapest. So like bakerstreet says above, I think it's just bad training in that he doesn't know the ticket was valid, but aside from that he was as helpful as he could possibly have been.

I've attached a pic of my tickets for those questioning what I actually bought, and you can see the time I was travelling too (off-peak) from the ticket I had to buy today.

That confirms that the guard was wrong. Full refund should be straight forward but then again I haven't dealt with Northern

 

[JonathanH]

Provided it's an off peak return, and not an off peak day return, there's no reason you can't break a journey multiple times over the validity of the ticket. Yes, it opens up the possibility of fraud, and I saw one which was almost certainly someone using an SVR as a season this afternoon. But that's a problem for the industry, not the Guard.

Railway staff who say otherwise do nothing but diminish the case for having properly trained staff on board the train and at stations. Sad, really, but at least the majority of staff out there do know their stuff.

What about ticket gates? If travelling A-B<break>B-C, does the return portion of an off-peak return turn up a 134 code if put through a barrier at B for the restarted journey or on arrival at C?

 

[najaB]

What about ticket gates? If travelling A-B<break>B-C, does the return portion of an off-peak return turn up a 134 code if put through a barrier at B for the restarted journey or on arrival at C?

Only if badly programmed. A barrier at an intermediate station should accept the ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only if badly programmed. A barrier at an intermediate station should accept the ticket.

But even if it doesn't, the staff supervising the gate (for it is not allowed to have the gate closed without any such staff, even if they are remote) should let you through.

In all cases it is permissible to break your journey as many times as you like during the calendar month of validity of the return half of an Off Peak Return. TOCs are not permitted to restrict this; all Off Peak Returns, whatever the restriction code, permit break of journey on the return half. It does not matter what anyone happens to write, stamp, scrawl or otherwise do to your ticket.

 

[Jonfun]

What about ticket gates? If travelling A-B<break>B-C, does the return portion of an off-peak return turn up a 134 code if put through a barrier at B for the restarted journey or on arrival at C?

I don't know what a 134 code is or how it has relevance to the ticket's validity. Ultimately, the barrier operator has to make the decision whether a ticket is valid or not, the gateline - in theory, if not in practice - just whittles down numbers.

 

[miami]

I wonder how much financial gain the guard made for selling the ticket. Was this a genuine mistake (in which case an £80 fine may be appropriate), or was this a deliberate fraudulent attempt to make money?

Fraud: noun: deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.

I'm sure it's just a genuine mistake from someone that doesn't know his job - I'm aware of at least 2 people in charge of trains (on a different TOC) who have no knowledge of the national rail conditions of carriage, let alone have read it.

However even in this case, the ticket clearly says to check nationalrail.co.uk/2V for restrictions. The guard has ignored this, as if he had checked those restrictions he'd have seen

Return Travel: Not valid for trains scheduled to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.
Overnight Break of Journey - restarting journey from an intermediate station: return restrictions as above apply from the intermediate station, Monday-Friday.

(This is assuming, as the OP states, that "All travel would be between 10am and 7pm each day.")

It's all very well saying "write in and request a refund when they're the ones in breach of contract". This "pay when challenged" mentality that TOCs have is simply not on, and why there should be real penalties for them, upto and including jail time.



N.B I don't really believe the guard should be fined £80, or go to court, however I don't believe that Northern's customers who make far more honest mistakes should be fined £80 or go to court either. In both directions, an honest mistake should be dealt with by charging/refunding the appropiate fare, with an apology. Any genuine deliberate issues (like fare evasion, or the schenanegans going on at Paddington and Guildford) should be dealt with in the courts.

 

[yorkie]

For anyone following... I was made to buy a single ticket today, for Sheffield to Alfreton, because the conductor yesterday scribbled the date on when he checked my ticket. Today's conductor said I could break the return journey but that the breaks must all be on the same day, and not overnight. If I wanted to break overnight then I needed the open return.

That's not correct. Write to Northern, and also I'd inform Barry Doe as this is an ongoing issue with Northern.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder how much financial gain the guard made for selling the ticket.

Commission is probably 5%

Was this a genuine mistake (in which case an £80 fine may be appropriate), or was this a deliberate fraudulent attempt to make money?.

I think £80 would be reasonable, but I'd charge it to Northern, rather than the staff, as their training is abysmal. However the reality is, it's not a level playing field, so this is a hypothetical suggestion. Passengers are subject to being penalised for such mistakes in a far greater way than railway companies are. You could certainly ask for an admin fee (of, say, £10) which may have more success than asking for £80 which, realistically, is never going to happen.

The matter can be escalated to the ORR ([email protected]), as it is a breach of consumer law.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Only if badly programmed. A barrier at an intermediate station should accept the ticket.

I can confirm that the ticket barrier at Leeds accepted my ticket before and after I broke my journey overnight there too.

 

[father_jack]

I don't know what a 134 code is or how it has relevance to the ticket's validity. Ultimately, the barrier operator has to make the decision whether a ticket is valid or not, the gateline - in theory, if not in practice - just whittles down numbers.

134 shows it's been through a barrier previously, if this shows there is then a second code which can be obtained that shows which barrier and when. A prudent RPI would obtain this information before pursuing an incorrect accusation.

Aside about once a year I sell a SVR to (for example) Glasgow from my station down south vice an all line rover, and advise the (usually tourist) passenger of how they can break the return portion multiple times on multiple days at (for example again) Edinburgh/Newcastle/York/Derby and advise of any off route returns that may also be required to have days out in Lincoln/Hull/Nottingham (just as examples again).