• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Breaking a journey over multiple days

Status
Not open for further replies.

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,244
134 shows it's been through a barrier previously, if this shows there is then a second code which can be obtained that shows which barrier and when. A prudent RPI would obtain this information before pursuing an incorrect accusation.
If the guard doesn't know about break of journey, it is unlikely that he knows about this additional information and how to obtain it. In any event, the information is limited to a code and a time but no date, so is of limited use in proving BoJ.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,661
Whilst you've likely already sent them by now, if you haven't already done so, send by recorded delivery. These are just the sort of thing that will get lost. Whilst i appreciate on this occasion that the recorded delivery fee is a significant percentage of the ticket cost you want refunded.

In more general terms, it's rare i use an off peak return and break a journey to do any more than wander around a station but on the rare occasions i do this, be it over night or not i always hand the ticket to the member of staff on the gateline for exit and entrance. The risk of the machine swallowing the ticket is too high and certainly on a Northern manned station the response is very likely to be "What ticket?" or similar.

Rob
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,496
Location
Sheffield
Whilst you've likely already sent them by now, if you haven't already done so, send by recorded delivery. These are just the sort of thing that will get lost. Whilst i appreciate on this occasion that the recorded delivery fee is a significant percentage of the ticket cost you want refunded.

Alternatively send scanned copies by email. With most organisations you will then get an automated confirmation of receipt.
 
Joined
23 Jan 2016
Messages
159
That's not correct. Write to Northern, and also I'd inform Barry Doe as this is an ongoing issue with Northern.

...

The matter can be escalated to the ORR ([email protected]), as it is a breach of consumer law.

Could you let me know who or what Barry Doe is please? I did Google, but I'm not sure if I found the right website.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whilst you've likely already sent them by now, if you haven't already done so, send by recorded delivery. These are just the sort of thing that will get lost. Whilst i appreciate on this occasion that the recorded delivery fee is a significant percentage of the ticket cost you want refunded.

In more general terms, it's rare i use an off peak return and break a journey to do any more than wander around a station but on the rare occasions i do this, be it over night or not i always hand the ticket to the member of staff on the gateline for exit and entrance. The risk of the machine swallowing the ticket is too high and certainly on a Northern manned station the response is very likely to be "What ticket?" or similar.

Rob

I've got proof of posting, and also have a hi-res photo of all three tickets too. If the tickets had been much more expensive then I would have considered recorded/tracked but these should be covered by RM's £20 limit, unless they don't cover to Freepost addresses.

Have you actually experienced a ticket being eaten by the gate when it shouldn't be? I'll try and remember to get a staff member to check my ticket and open the gate in future, though it was fine in Leeds this time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Alternatively send scanned copies by email. With most organisations you will then get an automated confirmation of receipt.

They explicitly requested the originals, and not scans. I do have a photo of them though, should they go AWOL!
 
Joined
23 Jan 2016
Messages
159
Update: I have a refund... as two £5 travel vouchers, despite requesting a cheque.

Also, I've just made another trip using off-peak return tickets, and again the guard wasn't aware of the rules for these tickets. CrossCountry this time, though he wasn't so wrong as the Northern guard -- he said I could break overnight but had to catch the first train out the next day. He didn't stamp my ticket though, to avoid me having those issues again! And then the gateline staff at Birmingham New Street were also unaware of the rules... but let me out with their pass instead of me putting the ticket through the barrier. Ultimately I made my journey as intended, but it's concerning that I haven't encountered a single person on a train or manning the barrier yet who knows the rules!
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,599
Location
Merseyside
I would take this matter to Passenger Focus as Northern have failed to refund you. They should not be issuing refunds in this way. Did they say what action they would take?

Id also report your experience of receiving incorrect information to Cross Country and also whoever runs the gatelines at New Street. Its not acceptable passengers are being told a pack of lies and this needs fixing.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,828
You are lucky - I didn't even get a tailored response to my complaint about being charged for the next day's journey when breaking overnight - see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2354416&postcount=11. I have sent my original letter back to the customer comments email address but am not hopeful of a reply.

Thank you for contacting us on 19/11/2015 in regards to poor customer service by the conductor at Southern. Please accept my apologies for the delay in our response.

Thank you for getting in touch with us, it was disappointing to read about your experience with one of our train conductors, customer service is important to us and we have a clear expectation that our people will promote a positive experience for customers at every point during their journey.

Customer feedback is so important here that we use it to drive improvement across the business so we have passed your comments to the local management team. The will look into what you have told us about and take the appropriate course of action. Although we can’t tell you what the outcome will be, we always promise to review or investigate and this helps us find opportunities to improve the service we provide our customers.

Thanks again for taking the time to contact us and I do hope you can understand that we can’t give you any further commentary regarding your complaint I hope that your future journeys are of a higher standard, and I apologise again for any inconvenience we may have caused you.

I travelled on the return portion of an off-peak return yesterday (in Scotland) and the guard wrote the date on the ticket. I do think the location or headcode is more appropriate. I didn't challenge or question it but I suspect the mentality of no overnight break of journey is now quite widespread.

A proper response to my complaint would have been quite useful for showing to conductors in the future (or at least clarified policy the other way)
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,840
Location
Scotland
I travelled on the return portion of an off-peak return yesterday (in Scotland) and the guard wrote the date on the ticket. I do think the location or headcode is more appropriate.
When you say 'location' what location would you suggest be used?
 
Joined
23 Jan 2016
Messages
159
I would take this matter to Passenger Focus as Northern have failed to refund you. They should not be issuing refunds in this way. Did they say what action they would take?

Id also report your experience of receiving incorrect information to Cross Country and also whoever runs the gatelines at New Street. Its not acceptable passengers are being told a pack of lies and this needs fixing.

My letter simply says:

"Thank you for getting in touch.

Please find enclosed rail travel vouchers in lieu of your refund. The vouchers are valid for twelve months and I trust they will prove useful.

Thank you for taking the time to contact me.

Yours sincerely
xxx
Customer Relations Officer"

xxx -- not sure if I'm allowed to give the person's name here.

I'll hunt out the contact info for CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains *and* also Great Western Railway, all of whom have given out the wrong info about these tickets recently.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,828
When you say 'location' what location would you suggest be used?

The location of the next station at which the train is due to stop would appear to convey more relevant information to the next ticket checker than the date the first part of the journey was made.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,840
Location
Scotland
The location of the next station at which the train is due to stop would appear to convey more relevant information to the next ticket checker than the date the first part of the journey was made.
I suppose it would prevent a ticket being used more than once from a given station.
 

Bookd

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2015
Messages
445
I suppose there could be the possibility of multiple use; for example if you have a return part ticket from Newcastle to Doncaster, break at York, you could then commute between York and Durham buying an outbound single and keep using the same return. The answer might be than if braking a journey, and if the ticket is inspected, then you should tell the guard / RTI who would note the ticket as used for the section covered rather than just meaningless mark. This would not of course solve the issue if get were no ticket inspection.
 

bkhtele

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2009
Messages
478
Location
Swindon
Where staff are in doubt the ticket can be scanned at most ticket office enroute to see its usage & how this compares to the customers described usage.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,599
Location
Merseyside
My letter simply says:

"Thank you for getting in touch.

Please find enclosed rail travel vouchers in lieu of your refund. The vouchers are valid for twelve months and I trust they will prove useful.

Thank you for taking the time to contact me.

Yours sincerely
xxx
Customer Relations Officer"

xxx -- not sure if I'm allowed to give the person's name here.

I'll hunt out the contact info for CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains *and* also Great Western Railway, all of whom have given out the wrong info about these tickets recently.

This is not an acceptable reply from Northern. They have not said what action they will take nor provided a refund. Take it to Transport Focus please! I personality believe you should get compensation too.
 
Joined
23 Jan 2016
Messages
159
This is not an acceptable reply from Northern. They have not said what action they will take nor provided a refund. Take it to Transport Focus please! I personality believe you should get compensation too.

I've just checked the Transport Focus website, and it says there that I have to follow the train company’s internal escalation process first. I'll do that and then see what happens...
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,599
Location
Merseyside
I've just checked the Transport Focus website, and it says there that I have to follow the train company’s internal escalation process first. I'll do that and then see what happens...

Can others confirm? My understanding is that it is up to the OP if they go to TF at this point or complain to Northern again.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,840
Location
Scotland
Can others confirm? My understanding is that it is up to the OP if they go to TF at this point or complain to Northern again.
They can go to TF but it is probable that they will refer the case back to Northern since the case hasn't been internally escalated and reviewed yet.
 

RonnieMac

Member
Joined
8 Jul 2014
Messages
18
This happened to me recently. I was travelling on the return portion of an anytime Manchester-Harrogate ticket, and had intended to break my journey overnight at Todmorden.

The guard on the Harrogate-Leeds train verbally endorsed my ticket with no problems. However, on the Leeds-Todmorden leg, the guard took my ticket off me and wrote the date on it and said that all travel must be completed on that day, even though I was well within the monthly validity period of the ticket. I tried remonstrating with him by politely repeating that to the best of my knowledge overnight breaks of journey were allowed on the return portion of an anytime ticket, but he kept insisting that they weren't and indeed became quite belligerent about it.

In the end I changed my plans and got the last train back from Todmorden to Manchester that night, rather than running the risk of having problems using the ticket the next day.

So this does seem to be a common misunderstanding amongst guards unfortunately.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,599
Location
Merseyside
This happened to me recently. I was travelling on the return portion of an anytime Manchester-Harrogate ticket, and had intended to break my journey overnight at Todmorden.

The guard on the Harrogate-Leeds train verbally endorsed my ticket with no problems. However, on the Leeds-Todmorden leg, the guard took my ticket off me and wrote the date on it and said that all travel must be completed on that day, even though I was well within the monthly validity period of the ticket. I tried remonstrating with him by politely repeating that to the best of my knowledge overnight breaks of journey were allowed on the return portion of an anytime ticket, but he kept insisting that they weren't and indeed became quite belligerent about it.

In the end I changed my plans and got the last train back from Todmorden to Manchester that night, rather than running the risk of having problems using the ticket the next day.

So this does seem to be a common misunderstanding amongst guards unfortunately.

Regardless of that a guard says or writes on a ticket, it does not change its validity.

In this case I would ask that you complain about the guard concerned to the train company. This level of service is not acceptable.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/staff-feedback
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
13,205
There is no need to disclose your plans to the guard. I'd have just let him stamp the ticket (or whatever) and move on.

Granted there's always the possibility of a disagreement the next day but there's no need to have them the day before.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,856
Location
Yorkshire
This happened to me recently. I was travelling on the return portion of an anytime Manchester-Harrogate ticket, and had intended to break my journey overnight at Todmorden.

The guard on the Harrogate-Leeds train verbally endorsed my ticket with no problems. However, on the Leeds-Todmorden leg, the guard took my ticket off me and wrote the date on it and said that all travel must be completed on that day, even though I was well within the monthly validity period of the ticket. I tried remonstrating with him by politely repeating that to the best of my knowledge overnight breaks of journey were allowed on the return portion of an anytime ticket, but he kept insisting that they weren't and indeed became quite belligerent about it.

In the end I changed my plans and got the last train back from Todmorden to Manchester that night, rather than running the risk of having problems using the ticket the next day.

So this does seem to be a common misunderstanding amongst guards unfortunately.
Make sure you write to Northern. Let us know what response you get.

I wrote to them years ago and was informed that all Guards would be re-briefed to ensure that this didn't occur any more.

Clearly they need to re-brief again!

I'd also write to Barry Doe.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,413
This happened to me recently. I was travelling on the return portion of an anytime Manchester-Harrogate ticket, and had intended to break my journey overnight at Todmorden.

The guard on the Harrogate-Leeds train verbally endorsed my ticket with no problems. However, on the Leeds-Todmorden leg, the guard took my ticket off me and wrote the date on it and said that all travel must be completed on that day, even though I was well within the monthly validity period of the ticket. I tried remonstrating with him by politely repeating that to the best of my knowledge overnight breaks of journey were allowed on the return portion of an anytime ticket, but he kept insisting that they weren't and indeed became quite belligerent about it.

In the end I changed my plans and got the last train back from Todmorden to Manchester that night, rather than running the risk of having problems using the ticket the next day.

So this does seem to be a common misunderstanding amongst guards unfortunately.

A similar thing happened to me last weekend on the Calder Valley line. I wonder if it was the same guard?

I was using the outward portion of an Anytime return, that has 5 days validity. The ticket was dated on the previous day as I had already broken my journey overnight. On this day I was travelling to Halifax and planning a further overnight break of journey there.

Guard "This ticket is dated yesterday"
Me "I know. I broke my journey overnight in Liverpool"
Guard, looking bemused "Can I see the return ticket?"
Me "Yes, here it is"
(Guard hands me back the Out ticket. I give him the Return ticket and he checks that it is unused)
Guard "Can I have your other ticket back so I can mark it to show that it's been used?"
Me "Here it is but I'm only using it as far as Halifax today so can you make a note of that?"
I give him back the Out ticket. Guard mumbles something and writes a big number 17, the date, in marker pen on the front of the ticket and hands it back to me.


It does seem to be a common problem with Northern guards. Previously I have had a guard circle the Start Date and scribble out Valid Until date on my tickets, implying that, once used, a ticket has no validity on subsequent days.

Marking tickets with the date is meaningless. If they want to prevent reuse of tickets then it is the name of the next station stop that needs to be written e.g. "Used as far as Halifax".
 

Coolzac

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2014
Messages
307
Once a few years ago I was travelling with a friend and we had day returns from York-Harrogate. We both had railcard discounts. On the return journey we split our journey at Knaresborough and were promptly told on the journey home (on the same day) that as they were 'heavily discounted tickets' that we were not allowed to break our journey. I said to the conductor that the level of railcard discount doesn't affect the validity of the ticket and after much arguing they left us to it.

It seems they haven't changed much!
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,828
Marking with the date in pen (as firmly and large as possible) now seems to be the most common treatment with tickets valid over one day. You would have to imagine that any conductor / guard doing this believes that such tickets are not valid for overnight break of journey.
 

Paul Kelly

Verified Rep - BR Fares
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
4,134
Location
Reading
You would have to imagine that any conductor / guard doing this believes that such tickets are not valid for overnight break of journey.
I'm not sure you can make that inference - the guard believing that the passenger would be completing the journey on the same day would be a safer bet, though.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,828
I'm not sure you can make that inference - the guard believing that the passenger would be completing the journey on the same day would be a safer bet, though.

Maybe - perhaps what we need is something in the new ticket design to include reference to overnight break of journey marked I'm the text.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
A few things to bear in mind.

1) Since the beginning of April, Northern's "Customer Experience Centre" has been run by Carillion on Northern's behalf, in a building that no Northern staff go in, employing people who have probably never worked in a railway enviroment before and seem to have very little railway training. The result of this is that I think it very unlikely that anyone from Northern would actually see your complaints unless escalated beyond the "Customer Experience Centre".

2) Guards across the country, not just in Northernland, have to deal with people attempting to use tickets more than once. This does not excuse cases of staff getting things wrong, but does sometimes explain why guards are more suspicious of tickets being used over multiple days. I'm sure someone can suggest a bulletproof plan to combat this, but in the meantime it remains a problem.

3) The OP may not have gotten the £6.55 owed in a refund, but they did apparently get £10 in vouchers which could be used for their next trip. I realise it should have been a refund by the original payment method, but some might actually consider this better than the refund. The Op could contact Northern Carillion again for the refund if they so wish, but I make no guarantee about the outcome.

4) I noticed someone suggesting, if the guard believed the ticket was not valid and an Anytime ticket would have been, that an excess to the Anytime fare should have been offered. The Op was sold a £6.55 ticket, an excess fare would have been nearly £28. I'm not suggesting the guard was completely right in his actions, but simply that, had they been correct to charge more, an excess fare was not appropriate.

5) Re-briefing these days generally consists of sending out an email with an attachment to print off (but don't print it off because we need to save the planet), putting a piece of Northern branded A4 paper on a notice board, or hoping staff gain the ability to read minds.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top