Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[NamelessPoster]

Take it from me - the reason replacement Buses are used are because it best suits the needs. Of course it is far from ideal having to leave the train at 3am but it has to be done for the reasons I said as in rolling stock has to carry on to destination as it needs to be there for the return journey the following night otherwise that service would not run. In any case these trains simply cannot sit at a platform as busy as Edinburgh Waverley taking up a platform booked to deal with several East Coast services from 5.30am.

I'd suggest if sleep is all important and you know a strike is going to affect your journey then best to cancel and get your refund as it is pretty much set in stone that replacement bus services at 4am in the morning will remain as there is no other option for getting passengers to their destination on time. However, now that GBRF conductors are at the point of taking over the strike will not impact the sleeper service nearly as much now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Friend of mine was unable to take the sleeper last weekend due to being overbooked. Ended up taking a £25 megabus.

I guess a coach was missing from the formation? There isn't really a way to overbook a train.

I've used the Megabus Gold sleeper and it's pretty good. Slept better than on a train because of the longitudinal beds. (If CS can't do the pods, as seems to be the case, I think they should instead offer longitudinal couchettes rather than just seats).

 

[47271]

Overbooking was a more common occurence in the bad days of the stock maintenance issues in the second half of last year. As Neil says, the only usual reason for this is a sleeper coach removed from the formation at short notice.

Just on a point of information, I don't believe that anyone has been kicked out of their beds at 4am on The Lowlander, the guard problem has only affected The Highlander on Scotrail strike days.

I haven't tried it, but Megabus sleeper I'm sure is fine if you can present yourself at the limited range of places it calls at, and that's comparitively few on The Highlander's routes. And you can be sure that it would be gone tomorrow if it isn't making enough money for them.

It also has a devastating flaw which rules it out to the hardcore sleeper regulars - no lounge car with an ample menu and well stocked bar!

Friend of mine was unable to take the sleeper last weekend due to being overbooked. Ended up taking a £25 megabus.

I assumed this was a typical NX coach or "rail replacement" bus service, i.e. horrendous seats. But no - it comes with lie flat beds!

With a strong chance of being kicked out of the sleeper at 4AM, it seems that the best option is to
1) fly (for Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, posssibly inverness)
2) get a day train (for Glasgow, Edinburgh
3) get the night bus (for Glasgow)
4) get the sleeper

The only time the sleeper would be top of the list is on trips to Fort William or Inverness, or if the weather is likely to delay the first plane to Edinburgh.

 

[najaB]

I've used the Megabus Gold sleeper and it's pretty good. Slept better than on a train because of the longitudinal beds.

I've only tried it once and swore never to again. I had a lower bunk so it was cramped and the bed lacked any padding so it was impossible to find a comfortable position.

To each their own, I guess.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Take it from me - the reason replacement Buses are used are because it best suits the needs. Of course it is far from ideal having to leave the train at 3am but it has to be done for the reasons I said as in rolling stock has to carry on to destination as it needs to be there for the return journey the following night otherwise that service would not run. In any case these trains simply cannot sit at a platform as busy as Edinburgh Waverley taking up a platform booked to deal with several East Coast services from 5.30am.

I'd suggest if sleep is all important and you know a strike is going to affect your journey then best to cancel and get your refund as it is pretty much set in stone that replacement bus services at 4am in the morning will remain as there is no other option for getting passengers to their destination on time. However, now that GBRF conductors are at the point of taking over the strike will not impact the sleeper service nearly as much now.

Agreed, NP, the ECS has to carry on regardless, although in fact the stock did stand idle at Platform 11 for more than two hours - the FW set did not get away until 0620 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O12211/2016/07/16/advanced

But you missed the issue. Of course sleep is all important, the clue is in the thread title, and we did know that the strike would affect the journey - by stopping at Perth at 0539, not Edinburgh at 0355. And not including 2 hours hanging around waiting for transport which had been arranged for the WRONG arrival station.

From a perfectly pleasant call to CS today I learn that "they" were not aware of the guard's decision to end his turn at Edinburgh until 1S25 arrived at Edinburgh (although the train crew at Euston were certainly aware, and the packed breakfasts were magicked out of the ether on arrival).

And I also learn that pro-active full refunds will be offered to all CS travellers affected by strike action in the past fortnight. Eventually. The total runs well into four figures. As has been said already up-thread by 47271 "you have to credit CS with never giving up in adversity"

GZ

 

[NamelessPoster]

Agreed, NP, the ECS has to carry on regardless, although in fact the stock did stand idle at Platform 11 for more than two hours - the FW set did not get away until 0620 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O12211/2016/07/16/advanced

But you missed the issue. Of course sleep is all important, the clue is in the thread title, and we did know that the strike would affect the journey - by stopping at Perth at 0539, not Edinburgh at 0355. And not including 2 hours hanging around waiting for transport which had been arranged for the WRONG arrival station.

From a perfectly pleasant call to CS today I learn that "they" were not aware of the guard's decision to end his turn at Edinburgh until 1S25 arrived at Edinburgh (although the train crew at Euston were certainly aware, and the packed breakfasts were magicked out of the ether on arrival).

And I also learn that pro-active full refunds will be offered to all CS travellers affected by strike action in the past fortnight. Eventually. The total runs well into four figures. As has been said already up-thread by 47271 "you have to credit CS with never giving up in adversity"

GZ

Not to everyone is sleep important though. Many a time people stotter out of the lounge car four hours into their journey so to them sleep is not vital to them. The people that travel on the sleeper range from businessmen/politicians to people using it to get home or go on holiday connecting with a flight or just holidaymakers. In an ideal world the sleeper service would always complete it's full journey but some times like strikes and adverse weather it just cannot happen so sleep patterns are inevitably disrupted. As I have said - keeping a 16 coach set sitting at Edinburgh Waverley blocking it's main through line platform until 8am is certainly not possible and the stock needs to reach its destination in any case so it can take up the journey south later that day. Guards employed by ScotRail during strikes will inevitably down tools or be branded a scab so inevitably the best laid plans fall apart at times like these. Hopefully, with GBRF close to taking over the conductor roles the strike will not impact as much and time will tell.

 

[route:oxford]

And I also learn that pro-active full refunds will be offered to all CS travellers affected by strike action in the past fortnight. Eventually. The total runs well into four figures. As has been said already up-thread by 47271 "you have to credit CS with never giving up in adversity" GZ

So what would happen if a relatively irritated passenger barricaded themselves into a compartment and refused to leave until they were transported to the timetabled destination?

BTP would no doubt turn up - but I'm unsure if they are either equipped or have the means to force their way into a sleeper cabin.

 

[Chrism20]

So what would happen if a relatively irritated passenger barricaded themselves into a compartment and refused to leave until they were transported to the timetabled destination?

BTP would no doubt turn up - but I'm unsure if they are either equipped or have the means to force their way into a sleeper cabin.

Can't you unlock the sliding connecting door from either compartment with a carriage key? Not easy to barricade a sliding door compared to one that opens inwards.

Id imagine they would then be removed by the BTP and done with infringing a few bylaws before also being barred from CS for life.

 

[Bungle965]

So what would happen if a relatively irritated passenger barricaded themselves into a compartment and refused to leave until they were transported to the timetabled destination?

BTP would no doubt turn up - but I'm unsure if they are either equipped or have the means to force their way into a sleeper cabin.

I am pretty sure there was a example a couple of years ago I think it was LM cancelled its Hereford service short because of a heavy delay but the passengers on it refused to get off it. So the train had to go onto Hereford. This is going of memory so I might be wrong!
Sam

 

[PHILIPE]

I am pretty sure there was a example a couple of years ago I think it was LM cancelled its Hereford service short because of a heavy delay but the passengers on it refused to get off it. So the train had to go onto Hereford. This is going of memory so I might be wrong!
Sam

Here's the story that I posted recently:-

Back to another area, I have posted this on the Forum before, but there was an evening commuter train from Birmingham to Hereford which was consistently late. LM would terminate the train at Ledbury to turn back right time and leave masses of passengers stranded there, sometimes on a cold dark and wet winter night with just a small shelter and wait for the next train an hour later. This eventually came to a head when one night, as if pre-arranged, passengers refused to leave the train necessitating the attendance of police. They still didn't budge leaving the only available option of sending the train onto Hereford. There had to be a re-think after this even if it meant delaying the return from Hereford.

On this thread:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132338

 

[47271]

So what would happen if a relatively irritated passenger barricaded themselves into a compartment and refused to leave until they were transported to the timetabled destination?

BTP would no doubt turn up - but I'm unsure if they are either equipped or have the means to force their way into a sleeper cabin.

Ha, they could uncouple the coach with the barricaded compartment and send it to Polmadie later with the Lowlander ECS. They have the technology, and that would teach the protestor.

Shutting yourself in on the basis that you want to sleep for another four hours while a load of people hammer on the door at 4am somehow defies nature, but anything's possible I suppose....

 

[Bungle965]

Here's the story that I posted recently:-

Back to another area, I have posted this on the Forum before, but there was an evening commuter train from Birmingham to Hereford which was consistently late. LM would terminate the train at Ledbury to turn back right time and leave masses of passengers stranded there, sometimes on a cold dark and wet winter night with just a small shelter and wait for the next train an hour later. This eventually came to a head when one night, as if pre-arranged, passengers refused to leave the train necessitating the attendance of police. They still didn't budge leaving the only available option of sending the train onto Hereford. There had to be a re-think after this even if it meant delaying the return from Hereford.

On this thread:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132338

Thanks for that!
I did not think that I had made it up.
Sam

 

[kevin5025]

As others have mentioned the Highland sleepers ran last night. I was at Inverness and noticed that it was a GBRF guard on board. Really glad to see that CS have found a solution to this. It is not their strike and it is very unfair that they are being impacted (I understand the reasons, but it is unfair). Day passengers will be inconvenienced , but for the sleeper there is a big risk that customers won't return after a journey like that. Anyway, glad to see they have found a solution.
It was still a c66 and c73 on the front. It was nice to see some unusual traction

 

[MrCub]

Thrilled that my sleeper from Inverness ran on Friday night. All this talk of road transport: what happens if a passenger cannot manage that? I select rail because I suffer dreadfully from road sickness, and coach travel really upsets me. So what would happen?

 

[jopsuk]

then, as with any emergency rail replacement, you're in a bit of a bind. Bit hard to transport you by rail when there's no train running.

 

[Hadders]

I wondered when this would happen. From a disruption point of view good news, I wonder how things like acceptance of valid tickets, easments and the like will go though?

It won't make any difference as they already do their own thing. For example:

- refusal to recognise the Local Scottish Routeing Guide Easements
- refusal to accept ALRs on their final day of validity

 

[LowLevel]

Here's the story that I posted recently:-

Back to another area, I have posted this on the Forum before, but there was an evening commuter train from Birmingham to Hereford which was consistently late. LM would terminate the train at Ledbury to turn back right time and leave masses of passengers stranded there, sometimes on a cold dark and wet winter night with just a small shelter and wait for the next train an hour later. This eventually came to a head when one night, as if pre-arranged, passengers refused to leave the train necessitating the attendance of police. They still didn't budge leaving the only available option of sending the train onto Hereford. There had to be a re-think after this even if it meant delaying the return from Hereford.

On this thread:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132338

I believe it was rather older than that and involved Central Trains - I remember the story being in the local paper though! A bit of research indicates one Central Trains sit in in 2005 and an FGW one in 2007 - Hereford folk are certainly tenacious

 

[MrCub]

then, as with any emergency rail replacement, you're in a bit of a bind. Bit hard to transport you by rail when there's no train running.

Yep. In such circumstances I'd probably prefer to give up on the journey, swallowing hotel costs if need be. And the mere through of the Megabus sleeper is enough to bring me out in hives. I admire those who can manage it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thrilled that my sleeper from Inverness ran on Friday night. All this talk of road transport: what happens if a passenger cannot manage that? I select rail because I suffer dreadfully from road sickness, and coach travel really upsets me. So what would happen?

I would assume an admin-fee-free refund would be given in such circumstances. A similar situation might arise if one needed to travel with a bicycle, and would prefer not to travel at all were this not possible due to rail replacement notified after purchase.

 

[najaB]

..refusal to accept ALRs on their final day of validity

I'm not sure that they actually are doing anything wrong here. While First used to accept them, I think they were being more generous than required. I'm pretty sure that continuous Interrail passes work the same way - it needs to be valid for the second day if you want to use a sleeper service.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The current North of Edinburgh guarding arrangements often do still quietly accept eesments etc, cant speek for ALRs but hope no major issues when changed over

 

[route:oxford]

I am pretty sure there was a example a couple of years ago I think it was LM cancelled its Hereford service short because of a heavy delay but the passengers on it refused to get off it. So the train had to go onto Hereford. This is going of memory so I might be wrong!
Sam

Has also happened at Stirling. BTP being at least an hour away was useful.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ha, they could uncouple the coach with the barricaded compartment and send it to Polmadie later with the Lowlander ECS. They have the technology, and that would teach the protestor. .

Surely if they can engage in various uncoupling movements and drag the coach with a passenger but no guard onboard to Polmadie they may as well leave him or her in there until Inverness or Fort Bill?

 

[Flying Snail]

Not to everyone is sleep important though. Many a time people stotter out of the lounge car four hours into their journey so to them sleep is not vital to them. The people that travel on the sleeper range from businessmen/politicians to people using it to get home or go on holiday connecting with a flight or just holidaymakers. In an ideal world the sleeper service would always complete it's full journey but some times like strikes and adverse weather it just cannot happen so sleep patterns are inevitably disrupted. As I have said - keeping a 16 coach set sitting at Edinburgh Waverley blocking it's main through line platform until 8am is certainly not possible and the stock needs to reach its destination in any case so it can take up the journey south later that day. Guards employed by ScotRail during strikes will inevitably down tools or be branded a scab so inevitably the best laid plans fall apart at times like these. Hopefully, with GBRF close to taking over the conductor roles the strike will not impact as much and time will tell.

Making the same arguments repeatedly doesn't make them any more correct.

Waverley has 6 through platforms not counting splits (9 if you do), leaving the CS there will require some alterations but wouldn't be a massive problem. It wouldn't be the first or last additional train that has required use of a platform out of the normal schedule.

The sleepers are (usually) needed at their destinations to form the return journeys but there is no urgency in getting there, the return workings don't depart until late evening. Normally the stock sits in a siding all day but on occasion workings INV-Polmadie-INV or ABD-Polmadie-ABD have run for maintenance issues so there is a great deal of slack to cope with a late running northbound without affecting the return working. You are also ignoring the fact that if it is a strike day the return working may not have a guard so will be cancelled or ECS anyway.

Staffing the sleeper for longer at Waverley would require some overtime from some of the onboard staff, they have to do this anyway in the event of a delay so I assume there are some arrangements in place to cover this, the difference being in this situation they know in advance so can agree or not to the extra hours.

The point is that people pay a considerable amount extra for a bed over a seat and CS should do everything they can to provide the service they are paid for, both the transportation AND hotel service. They have heavily marketed the hotel aspect since taking the franchise as well as increasing the cost of sleeper accommodation (supplement has increased by over 50% and inclusive fares are higher than with FSR). An expectation that they will deliver a full night's accommodation as well as the full journey is not at all unreasonable.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I really can't see the sleeper being able to be left in the platforms for much longer than now. The Route Study included major plans for extra platforms at both Central and Waverley and they're not going to then waste that investment by letting some carriages sit around until everyone has decided to wake up.

 

[NamelessPoster]

Spot on.

And the only sleeper staff that could police a train sitting at the station are the crew that brought the train from the starting point. They cannot wait until 8.30am and then head up to Invernes/Aberdeen/Fort William and arrive at around noon then be expected to follow up a 16 hour shift with a 13 hour shift with virtually no sleep between shifts.

In short such an idea is not do able for reasons already mentioned.

 

[Crossover]

Spot on.

And the only sleeper staff that could police a train sitting at the station are the crew that brought the train from the starting point. They cannot wait until 8.30am and then head up to Invernes/Aberdeen/Fort William and arrive at around noon then be expected to follow up a 16 hour shift with a 13 hour shift with virtually no sleep between shifts.

In short such an idea is not do able for reasons already mentioned.

I'm not sure expectation would come into it - pretty sure it goes against Working Time Regulations of minimum time between shifts (10 hours I think)

 

[Scotrail84]

A number of GBRF staff trained as conductors have been passed out recently as fairly shortly ScotRail's contract to supply the conductors for the sleeper service runs out. When that happens those GBRF staff will take over as conductors on the sleeper service north of Edinburgh.

No they will not. These guards only know the traction but not the routes and are being conducted by gbrf drivers. Serco fully intend to hire their own guards before next March.

 

[NamelessPoster]

No they will not. These guards only know the traction but not the routes and are being conducted by gbrf drivers. Serco fully intend to hire their own guards before next March.

Yes but the general point is changes are coming.

 

[Hadders]

I'm not sure that they actually are doing anything wrong here. While First used to accept them, I think they were being more generous than required. I'm pretty sure that continuous Interrail passes work the same way - it needs to be valid for the second day if you want to use a sleeper service.

By the letter of the law that's perhaps correct. But ALRs were accepted on their last day of validity by BR, National Express and First. They continue to be accepted on the last day of validity on the Night Riviera.

I believe the return portion of an Off Peak Return expires at 0429 on the day following it's expiry date but they can be used to complete a journey on the sleeper. This is inconsistent with the position in respect of ALRs.

It really is poor and smacks of desperation from Serco.

 

[SickyNicky]

I believe it was rather older than that and involved Central Trains - I remember the story being in the local paper though! A bit of research indicates one Central Trains sit in in 2005 and an FGW one in 2007 - Hereford folk are certainly tenacious

In those days I was commuting on that line and the service really was awful. Some trains were genuinely turned around at Ledbury or Great Malvern so regularly that you expected it. The first train of the day was often cancelled (so you couldn't get into Hereford before 9.00am) and it was just generally miserable. And whilst I now live near Ledbury, if you don't it's not really a station you want to spend an hour at in the cold, dark and pouring rain.

I remember the day that London Midland took over, and the guard telling me that it would get better immediately. And to be fair, it did. It became quite rare for them to turn trains around early.

But back on topic, I know for sure that in the 80's an ALR was accepted on the sleepers on the last day of its validity, even, in fact, to board after midnight. But they're not a regulated product and I suppose SERCO are within their rights to refuse travel after 04.30am. If necessary you could split tickets at the last stations passed before 04.30 (no need to stop there under condition 19c).