Caledonian Sleeper during HS2 construction: Will it need to move, if so where?

[47271]

I don't know about the Lowlander but the last I heard was that they plan to split the Highlander out of King's Cross so that Inverness runs as its own train.

That was about a year ago mind, they may have rethought 20 times since then.

 

[Whistler40145]

Could the sleepers access the North London line from the normal platforms at St Pancras?

 

[LeylandLen]

What about building some kind of temporary terminus at Wembley Yard ? Obviously plenty of space. Looking at google maps public access could be using Stonebridge Park on London Overground/Bakerloo line, frequent 20 min service to/from Euston on Overground plus LU ! I used that line from Wembley Park last week, obviously no knowledge of what would need to be done for restricted public access to/from the sleeper trains, given that arrival times can be late at times ? I do not live in London ; just a suggestion !

 

[swt_passenger]

Off the wall question, but could they feasibly operate from two London terminals, and use ECML and WCML for appropriate destinations?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could the sleepers access the North London line from the normal platforms at St Pancras?

Don't believe so, the earlier reply (post 14) describes the only routes shown on track diagrams, indicating that the only main links put in were international to WCML and ECML, with MML flexibility being fairly minimal at the terminus.

 

[cyclebytrain]

My bet is on simply using Euston platform 1, but I'm vaguely surprised not to have seen Stratford International's international platforms suggested - I guess they're long enough(?) they're definitely unused(!) and presumably the signalling and platform height issues would be no worse than using an international platform at St Pancras.

 

[The Planner]

Will need re-jigging of the ECS moves back to Wembley to use P1 only but may be possible. Stratford isn't close enough to central London so would never be entertained.

 

[BluePenguin]

Could the sleepers access the North London line from the normal platforms at St Pancras?

What do you mean by normal platforms? Do you mean the ones EMT use rather than the Eurostar and Southeastern ones?

 

[BluePenguin]

Could the Southeastern Highspeed platforms be used at all? There are no more services after midnight and it eliminates the security risks of using the Eurostar ones. I don't know if any trains are left at St Pancras overnight although if they could be moved out of the way somewhere the sleepers would have a few long platforms to themselves at that time of the night.

Alternatively, could the Thameslink platforms be used? It's an idea completely out of the blue although they are very long and connect straight onto the Midland mainline

 

[Hadders]

What about building some kind of temporary terminus at Wembley Yard ? Obviously plenty of space. Looking at google maps public access could be using Stonebridge Park on London Overground/Bakerloo line, frequent 20 min service to/from Euston on Overground plus LU ! I used that line from Wembley Park last week, obviously no knowledge of what would need to be done for restricted public access to/from the sleeper trains, given that arrival times can be late at times ? I do not live in London ; just a suggestion !

Passengers paying Serco's extortionate fares would not accept a trundle to/from Stonebridge Park on a London Overground train.

 

[deltic]

Passengers paying Serco's extortionate fares would not accept a trundle to/from Stonebridge Park on a London Overground train.

Extortionate fares? Subsidised to the tune of £100+ each!

 

[swt_passenger]

Could the Southeastern Highspeed platforms be used at all? There are no more services after midnight and it eliminates the security risks of using the Eurostar ones. I don't know if any trains are left at St Pancras overnight although if they could be moved out of the way somewhere the sleepers would have a few long platforms to themselves at that time of the night.

Alternatively, could the Thameslink platforms be used? It's an idea completely out of the blue although they are very long and connect straight onto the Midland mainline

The SE or Thameslink platforms are not long in the context of the sleeper. But there is no route from the SE platforms to the ECML or WCML anyway, without a set back into an 'international' platform.

 

[Alan McMillan]

We'll have a long wait for the answer to this speculation to become reality. Platforms 1-16 at Euston will be available during the construction of HS2 Phase 1. It's only for phase 2 that additional space will be needed for HS2.

 

[London Trains]

We'll have a long wait for the answer to this speculation to become reality. Platforms 1-16 at Euston will be available during the construction of HS2 Phase 1. It's only for phase 2 that additional space will be needed for HS2.

Couldn't a normal service run with only 2 platforms gone? Maybe a few cancellations in the peaks?

 

[The Planner]

Pretty much, it only gets messy if/when lines E and X need to be closed for any period of time.

 

[Chester1]

The other bridge to cross (erm ) would be the UIC platforms leaving a big gap. I guess wooden steps and wheelchair lifts could be used.

I think the platforms are halfway between UIC and UK height. They are certainly higher than those in Brussels or Paris.

I think it is a trade off between extra costs and importance of little disruption. If St Pancras International platforms could be used for little extra cost it will probably be very appealing to Serco by resolving platforming and pathing issues for the rest of the franchise. Kings Cross using three trains could work and would open up the opportunity of serving new stations through a different routes and stopping patterns. I don't think platform capacity is very relevant because there is no need for the sleepers to be at the London terminal prior to 10pm or after 7am.

 

[Clansman]

St. Pancras would be the perfect London terminus for the Sleeper, let alone Euston. Direct electrified links to the ECML and WCML without need to revers, sufficient size of platforms, greatly enhanced European rail links to and from Scotland, greater links to Kent and the South Coast.

Given that Platform 5 is the obvious choice, what security measures are you potentially looking at being put in place?

Obvious temporary partitions on the edge of platform 6 and the moving walkway leading to the departure lounge, as well as relevant ticketing checks at the main gates would be essentials - even then at first thought it seems perfectly possible on an operational and financial sense. It would seem more feasible than running 6 rakes back and forward the ECML a night I'd have thought.

 

[Highland37]

St Pancras would work well for me and others I think. It means that you could arrive on the sleeper and depart by Eurostar for Paris or Brussels.

I am trying to do just that in December and the two cross-city connections (Euston to St Pancras and Gare du Nord to Gare de Lyon) are the major issues on the journey.

 

[takno]

I think the platforms are halfway between UIC and UK height. They are certainly higher than those in Brussels or Paris.

I think it is a trade off between extra costs and importance of little disruption. If St Pancras International platforms could be used for little extra cost it will probably be very appealing to Serco by resolving platforming and pathing issues for the rest of the franchise. Kings Cross using three trains could work and would open up the opportunity of serving new stations through a different routes and stopping patterns. I don't think platform capacity is very relevant because there is no need for the sleepers to be at the London terminal prior to 10pm or after 7am.

The Inverness sleeper isn't even timed to arrive until 7.47, so it's not going to be out of platform until at least 8, and possibly much later with disruption. You wouldn't want to run it any earlier since it's already a fairly early start from Inverness, and most people wouldn't particularly want to be woken up and tossed out of their beds before 7 to roam the streets for a couple of hours until stuff opens. It's probably still not a massive issue on long-distance platforms, but it's definitely into the peak hours service period.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Could see St Pancres working with the international platforms... If they use a boarding pass type ticket, it could be scanned at passport control, so they'd know that they wouldn't need to be checked

 

[Mathew S]

Could see St Pancres working with the international platforms... If they use a boarding pass type ticket, it could be scanned at passport control, so they'd know that they wouldn't need to be checked

But you would have to check those passengers if (as I'm assuming would be the case) they'd be mixing with international passengers after security... otherwise what's to stop me buying a sleeper ticket and taking something illicit through security (unchecked) before passing it to an international passenger to take through the tunnel?

 

[Max]

But you would have to check those passengers if (as I'm assuming would be the case) they'd be mixing with international passengers after security... otherwise what's to stop me buying a sleeper ticket and taking something illicit through security (unchecked) before passing it to an international passenger to take through the tunnel?

The last Eurostar departure (excluding Sundays) is 20:03, so presumably this wouldn't be an issue as the area can be cleared/searched prior to the first service the next morning.

 

[cf111]

Extortionate fares? Subsidised to the tune of £100+ each!

A valid point but realistically I can't see that line working with customers. An advance 1st class single from Inverness to Euston on Tuesday is £240, in a shared berth an advance comes in at £160 and Serco are desperate to market the Sleeper as a "luxury" way to travel.

I'm on the sleeper a lot less than I used to be these days (and I wouldn't have considered myself a regular at the height of my usage) but an Easyjet flight from Inverness can be less than £40 e/w if you book even a month in advance and given the savings even being turfed out at Gatwick/Dalcross at either end isn't too much of an inconvenience. I'm £125.40 for a 1st single next week but I'm only using the sleeper because I need the whole day in Inverness beforehand.

 

[Mathew S]

The last Eurostar departure (excluding Sundays) is 20:03, so presumably this wouldn't be an issue as the area can be cleared/searched prior to the first service the next morning.

Thanks, that's useful. So provided sleeper passegers weren't allowed through until that last Euro service had departed, I guess it would probably work. As someone's already said, assuming CS were prepared to pay for a security sweep before morning Eurostar services restarted.

 

[Hadders]

A valid point but realistically I can't see that line working with customers. An advance 1st class single from Inverness to Euston on Tuesday is £240, in a shared berth an advance comes in at £160 and Serco are desperate to market the Sleeper as a "luxury" way to travel.

Quite. If passengers are paying that sort of money they will not expect to have to travel on an inner-suburban service and change at a temporary station in the middle of a freight yard!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could quite possibly get away with Kensington Olympia if a good quality temporary lounge was built, but it wouldn't be possible to board before departure which would be a disadvantage for the Lowlanders.

 

[Scotrail84]

It will be kings X if forced to move from Euston. Separate services if need be. Some wild and crazy suggestions on this thread...

 

[MG11]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #18 originally in this thread.

There is some talk of diverting the sleepers as a result of fewer long platforms being available.

How long are Wembley station platforms?? If long enough, they could terminate there and have ticket acceptance with LU for passengers to travel by tube in to Euston. Wembley is a well staffed station, providing convenience and information for disrupted customers.

 

[Hadders]

How long are Wembley station platforms?? If long enough, they could terminate there and have ticket acceptance with LU for passengers to travel by tube in to Euston. Wembley is a well staffed station, providing convenience and information for disrupted customers.

If I'd paid £160 for an Advance ticket to share or £240 for 1st Class I would appreciate having to complete/start the journey by tube.

 

[deltic]

How long are Wembley station platforms?? If long enough, they could terminate there and have ticket acceptance with LU for passengers to travel by tube in to Euston. Wembley is a well staffed station, providing convenience and information for disrupted customers.

Surprisingly short - won't accommodate sleeper