The campaign group seems to think all that's needed to provide the service are two shelters (presumably for Middlewich) and one train !!! I would hope the majority realise the scale of works and rolling stock provision required, and that it's a frivolous rather than "informed" comment...
https://twitter.com/MidCheshireRail
I am a big supporter of this reopening, as I was "brung up" in Northwich. I have always thought it was an unused potential, more so since other reopenings. Although I am told I saw the Crewe trains at Northwich, I was too little to remember them I am afraid.
The campaign group seems to think all that's needed to provide the service are two shelters (presumably for Middlewich) and one train !!! I would hope the majority realise the scale of works and rolling stock provision required, and that it's a frivolous rather than "informed" comment...
https://twitter.com/MidCheshireRail
I am a big supporter of this reopening, as I was "brung up" in Northwich. I have always thought it was an unused potential, more so since other reopenings. Although I am told I saw the Crewe trains at Northwich, I was too little to remember them I am afraid.
TfGM already explored extending it to Northwich. They scrapped it because they thought that heavy rail is the best option. TfGM won't provide funding to an out of area project unless they are guaranteed to get their money back.You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....
Is there anyone else you can blame?Blame the bean counters at the Treasury and DafT
The campaign group seems to think all that's needed to provide the service are two shelters (presumably for Middlewich) and one train !!! I would hope the majority realise the scale of works and rolling stock provision required, and that it's a frivolous rather than "informed" comment... .
I presume you mean removing all freight between Northwich and Altrincham.You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....
TfGM won't provide funding to an out of area project unless they are guaranteed to get their money back.
You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....
You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....
TfGM already explored extending it to Northwich. They scrapped it because they thought that heavy rail is the best option. TfGM won't provide funding to an out of area project unless they are guaranteed to get their money back.
I presume you mean removing all freight between Northwich and Altrincham.
If so there is a lot more freight on that line than just the ICI trains, including biomass, Manchester waste, stone en route to London, cars from Avonmouth, coal from the north east to Fiddlers Ferry etc.
The line is at least as valuable as a freight route as it is for passengers.
The same TfGM desperate to reduce congestion in to central Manchester along the southern roads in - along which the commuters of Middlewich and surrounds drive.
Yeah, but realistically, re-opening the line through Middlewich is going to have a negligeable impact on that congestion. The congestion is going to be from people coming from a huge variety of destinations both inside and outside Greater Manchester, with a very small proportion of those journeys originating from Middlewich. At the most optimistic, opening the line might cause a few hundred car commuters into Manchester to swap to the train each morning. That will make next to no noticeable difference to any road in Manchester.
That's not to say re-opening the Middlewich line isn't a good idea: I'm sure it would be a very beneficial thing to do. But the benefits of opening it will go to Middlewich and the surrounding area, not really to Manchester. So it's not really unreasonable for TfGM not to be particularly interested in funding it.
Not long ago Tata Chemicals closed the Winnington plant (between Northwich and Greenbank) and increased work at the Lostock Gralam plant, this resulted in a slight decrease in the number of limestone trains but overall the number of freight trains has increased significantly, partly due to increased passenger traffic on Chat Moss and through Victoria meaning freight needs to find an alternative way around. Also it needs to be noted Sandbach-Middlewich-Northwich-Chester is a diversionary route for Virgin Trains service between Holyhead and London and the entire route from Chester-Altrincham-Stockport-Manchester is a diversionary route for North Wales to Manchester services with an overnight service between Chester and Manchester Airport booked to go via Northwich so that ATW crews retain route knowledge.
For all those reasons full light rail conversion beyond Altrincham has always been out of the question. TfGM once looked at the cost:benefit of running tram-trains to Greenbank and more recently Rail North looked at the cost:benefit of electrifying the Mid-Cheshire route, the former had a poor cost:benefit ratio but the latter had an excellent cost:benefit ratio, even better than many of the routes which would have seemed more obvious choices for electrification. One of the reasons for the excellent cost:benefit ratio of heavy rail electrification is the volume of heavy freight using the line, the other main reason being poor journey times to Manchester compared to journey times by road.
I'd go with terminating at Northwich off-peak and Navigation Road peak. So during peak, 3tph.There is also a shortage of capacity between Stockport and Piccadilly which won't be resolved by the Ordsall Chord increasing terminating paths at Piccadilly. Combined with the Navigation Road single section the best service would be Altrincham-Crewe. It is possible to halve the length of single section but NR wouldn't want to pay for it and TfGM wouldn't because Metrolink doesn't need more than 10tph on the Altrincham line. At Stockport there is space next to platform 4 to build a mirror of platform 0 and use it for terminating mid Cheshire Line services but that would add to the cost of any Middlewich reopening.
Hi, the figures will be higher than hundreds but I accept not everyone on the M56/Princess Parkway lives in Middlewich. Middlewich's population is 14,000. 70% of the population work and 70% of those commute out (one of those two figures is 74% but I can't remember which). As there's no train and a rubbish bus service they're commuting by car. So that's almost 7,000 commuters and even if some go to Crewe, Chester, Liverpool, Warrington etc I'd bet there are a couple of thousand heading up the M56 each day. Add those from Winsford, who could get the train to Crewe or drive to Cuddington or Northwich for Manchester trains, but who probably also just drive, then the numbers are significant because 33,000 live in Winsford. Middlewichers go to Winsford for Liverpool trains and Winsfordians will likely come to Middlewich for Manchester trains.
There is also a shortage of capacity between Stockport and Piccadilly which won't be resolved by the Ordsall Chord increasing terminating paths at Piccadilly. Combined with the Navigation Road single section the best service would be Altrincham-Crewe. It is possible to halve the length of single section but NR wouldn't want to pay for it and TfGM wouldn't because Metrolink doesn't need more than 10tph on the Altrincham line. At Stockport there is space next to platform 4 to build a mirror of platform 0 and use it for terminating mid Cheshire Line services but that would add to the cost of any Middlewich reopening.
I believe 5% is the national percentage of passenger traffic captured by rail. This includes areas of passenger travel where there is absolutely no rail provision.If those figures are correct, then that seems reasonable. But the thing you have to factor in is that if the line opens, it's probably only going to cause a small proportion of those commuters to swap from car to train. Most won't swap because of inertia, or because their commuting destination isn't near any station on the Altrincham-Manchester line, or because they think they'd need to drive to Middlewich station anyway so they may as well just drive all the way, or because driving is cheaper, or because the trains aren't timed for when they need to get to work, and so on. I'd say that if you got 5% of commuters to swap to the railway that'd be a good result (and would still make the railway well worth re-opening). And oddly enoughly, 5% of 7000 is exactly the couple of hundred I estimated
Assuming we remain stuck with Metrolink only on the Altrincham and South Junction line, the best solution would be building the airport western link (with the many wider benefits this would bring about), running all via Northwich services through it and into Manchester using the paths of current airport terminators where possible, and extending Metrolink using tram-trains to an interchange at Knutsford, and over the ex-CLC line from Timperley Junction to Stockport with some new stops on that stretch
For all those reasons full light rail conversion beyond Altrincham has always been out of the question. TfGM once looked at the cost:benefit of running tram-trains to Greenbank and more recently Rail North looked at the cost:benefit of electrifying the Mid-Cheshire route, the former had a poor cost:benefit ratio but the latter had an excellent cost:benefit ratio, even better than many of the routes which would have seemed more obvious choices for electrification. One of the reasons for the excellent cost:benefit ratio of heavy rail electrification is the volume of heavy freight using the line, the other main reason being poor journey times to Manchester compared to journey times by road.
Assuming we remain stuck with Metrolink only on the Altrincham and South Junction line, the best solution would be building the airport western link (with the many wider benefits this would bring about), running all via Northwich services through it and into Manchester using the paths of current airport terminators where possible, and extending Metrolink using tram-trains to an interchange at Knutsford, and over the ex-CLC line from Timperley Junction to Stockport with some new stops on that stretch
I'd go with terminating at Northwich off-peak and Navigation Road peak. So during peak, 3tph.
I would suspect that the single section between Altrincham and Navigation Road wouldn't be so much of an issue if you dealt with the section between Navigation Road and Stockport, which from the point of view of available land etc. should be much easier to sort out. That potentially is something that TfGM arguably ought to be looking at, because decent line speeds and a few extra stations along that bit of line could transform journey opportunities in that part of Manchester - especially if you had an interchange with the Airport Metrolink line. Do that, and even with the single track bit near Altrincham you probably ought to be able to comfortably timetable 4tph on it. And of course if that was sorted out, then extending some trains to Crewe via Middlewich could be feasible.
The only trouble is of course that that's all next to useless if you can't increase Stockport-Manchester capacity as well. What's the actual issue there? Is it all the conflicting moves at the Manchester end as trains try to reach their platforms, or is it something more general along the line? And how - in principle - could you go about fixing it?
Assuming we remain stuck with Metrolink only on the Altrincham and South Junction line, the best solution would be building the airport western link (with the many wider benefits this would bring about), running all via Northwich services through it and into Manchester using the paths of current airport terminators where possible, and extending Metrolink using tram-trains to an interchange at Knutsford, and over the ex-CLC line from Timperley Junction to Stockport with some new stops on that stretch
Vriridor will just have to move I guess? (Also I can't tell the difference. I think the Pacers are FL 66's hauling wagons with viridor on the side and the rubbish trains are the buses on rails, right?)How would that affect the rubbish trains to/from Baguley? (I mean the freight trains carrying rubbish, not the Pacers. )
I mean the driver and guard just change ends and leave again. If you want to get change service, get off at Altrincham and those going to Navigation Road stay on.It would have to be Altrincham not Navigation Road, there is no capacity to terminate trains on the single track section. The problem with terminating anywhere other than Manchester is that a large number of people will wait for the next service from Chester or Greenbank adding to overcrowding.
I mean the driver and guard just change ends and leave again. If you want to get change service, get off at Altrincham and those going to Navigation Road stay on.
Option BThat still occupies the single track block for longer than absolutely neccessary and increases the knock on affects of any delays. That section has two solutions a) close Navigation Road Railway Station but keep Metrolink open or b) CPO the land next to and south of the station to have sufficient space for 4 tracks and 4 platforms, probably with either the Metrolink stop or Railway Station south of the level crossing. That would be quite expensive but combined with redoubling the section through Cheadle would add plenty of capacity. However, any new services would need to terminate at Stockport and that would require even more spending. Frankly until HS2 (or the western approach plan) happens the best solution is faster bus services.
Are they forgetting that certain areas of Knutsford that use to see 4 buses an hour now only see 1 and that on a Saturday, if you want to get to Manchester, you have to use the bus because the train and bus times don't meet?According to the Cheshire East local transport plan there are significant commuter flows to Knutsford from Wilmslow, Middlewich and Sandbach. The 88/88A bus provides a connection for the first