Can a train be moved immediately after a SPAD?

[Minilad]

The most recent SPAD at my company that I have any knowledge of the driver was allowed to continue and took the train to the normal relief point some 25 miles further. After consultation with everyone under the sun and being given the OK to do so

 

[OpsWeb]

Not strictly true, indeed a Cat A, odds on the Driver will be taken off, but Cat B and Cat C, then 9 out of 10 Drivers will be happy to carry on once the circumstances have been explained to them, although a B or a C at a signal protecting a level crossing may result in the Driver asking to be relieved of duty (understandably !)

Technically events formally known as CAT B, C or D are not SPAD's any more. They were renamed by the RSSB in 2013 following an industry-wide consultation and as part of the wider programme of modernising the Rulebook. When I was a driver, I encountered a fair few SPAR's (where the signal was just put back in my face) for various reasons and after stopping and reporting, I just continued as planned with a a bit of a delay.

I have never known a driver suffering a SPAD (formally a CAT A) to continue with his/her shift. Obviously they would generally move the train to a point where relief / stabling facilities exist rather than just abandon it on a mainline.

Depending on the severity of the SPAD, it could well be the end of his/her's career and it would be constantly "playing on the mind" which could lead to further incident.

 

[Western Lord]

There's a thread elsewhere about why DMU's no longer have forward views through the cab. Back in 1973, whilst engaged in a country wide fourteen day all line rover trip I was on a DMU from Chester to Manchester. The driver (complete with steam age cap) had an off duty colleague in the cab and, as usual, one could hear their conversation quite clearly. This was mainly about football and I remember the driver saying that United would finish well below City that season as "they've got a load of rubbish" (as it happened, United were relegated that season (1973-74). As we prcoceeded along, a green signal less than fifty yards ahead changed to red. The driver immediately made a full brake application but obviously overran the signal. He climbed down after stopping and contacted the signalman. Returning to the cab he mumbled something to his mate about a cock up and carried on to Manchester, where on arrival at Oxford Road he left the train to go and have a chat with somebody before returning and continuing to Piccadilly, where I left the train. No doubt these days this would be all over social media within seconds, which is, sadly, why passengers are unlikey to have such a view again.

 

[notadriver]

Not only that but as most trains (apart from HSTs) don't have windows you can stick your head out of, it's very difficult to tell what's going on. Conjecture is possible of course. I recall an previous post where someone claimed the train was being driven over cautiously despite having a) no train driving experience and b) very limited view of anything the driver could see if at all.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

No doubt these days this would be all over social media within seconds, which is, sadly, why passengers are unlikey to have such a view again.

It's more likely that the views have disappeared due to there being circuit breakers, computer modules, etc in the bulkheads

 

[TOCDriver]

Simple answer to this in a few words: You report immediately to the signaller and do what you are told.

 

[LAX54]

Technically events formally known as CAT B, C or D are not SPAD's any more. They were renamed by the RSSB in 2013 following an industry-wide consultation and as part of the wider programme of modernising the Rulebook. When I was a driver, I encountered a fair few SPAR's (where the signal was just put back in my face) for various reasons and after stopping and reporting, I just continued as planned with a a bit of a delay.

I have never known a driver suffering a SPAD (formally a CAT A) to continue with his/her shift. Obviously they would generally move the train to a point where relief / stabling facilities exist rather than just abandon it on a mainline.

Depending on the severity of the SPAD, it could well be the end of his/her's career and it would be constantly "playing on the mind" which could lead to further incident.

To most Siggies, a SPAD is still a SPAD regardless of renaming them to SPAR's ! in fact if a Signalman puts a signal back on purpose, then really it is still a SPAD as he put the signal to danger !

 

[trac]

There is several interesting (maybe not current) instuctional videos about SPAD's on Youtube:

This one is about SPAD indicators at station platforms

There is another one on Youtube about braking and inadvertent SPAD's under difficult railhead conditions.

 

[Steptwo]

If a train was on a permissive line behind another train stopped at a signal (going on to depot maybe) and the driver decided to follow the train in front through the signal when it cleared before it went back to red, Is that a spad? Obviously it's going to be totally against the rules but if he had time to get through before it changed he hasn't actually passed a signal at danger. Just wondered if the driver might get away with that.

 

[A-driver]

If a train was on a permissive line behind another train stopped at a signal (going on to depot maybe) and the driver decided to follow the train in front through the signal when it cleared before it went back to red, Is that a spad? Obviously it's going to be totally against the rules but if he had time to get through before it changed he hasn't actually passed a signal at danger. Just wondered if the driver might get away with that.

That is a SPAD and he has passed a signal at danger technically even if not practically as many GPL (although not all) must be reset after a train has passed through.

 

[fadster]

I'm think I've heard it said that passing "Stop and Await Instruction" or something like boards that are also SPAD's. Not sure at what category. Also: Is passing a "shunt limit" board a SPAD of some description.
Cheers, Fadster.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm think I've heard it said that passing "Stop and Await Instruction" or something like boards that are also SPAD's. Not sure at what category. Also: Is passing a "shunt limit" board a SPAD of some description.
Cheers, Fadster.

Yes to both.

I have a spreadsheet somewhere of ever spad from more than a few years back. There are a few stop boards listed.

 

[A-driver]

I'm think I've heard it said that passing "Stop and Await Instruction" or something like boards that are also SPAD's. Not sure at what category. Also: Is passing a "shunt limit" board a SPAD of some description.

Cheers, Fadster.

A red signal can be a main aspect, position light, stop board, fixed red or limit of shunt (I've probably missed one or two as well). All count as spads if passed without authority. If you pass a stop board without authority you have had a SPAD.

 

[ComUtoR]

...(I've probably missed one or two as well). All count as spads if passed without authority....

Handsignaller,
red flag (SLW/TBW),
shunt disk (yellow/black),
Worksite marker board.

SPAD indicator ? Would it count if you passed the spad indicator knowingly whilst it was flashing ?

Shunter using handsignal ?

There's a level crossing where you have to key it and wait for the white light (cant remember !!) (one in yalding) ?

Token block things ? I don't work tokenless block but I'd be interested to know if anything on it would be considered a spad.

Probably some others too but none spring to mind.

 

[A-driver]

Handsignaller,

red flag (SLW/TBW),

shunt disk (yellow/black),

Worksite marker board.



SPAD indicator ? Would it count if you passed the spad indicator knowingly whilst it was flashing ?



Shunter using handsignal ?



There's a level crossing where you have to key it and wait for the white light (cant remember !!) (one in yalding) ?



Token block things ? I don't work tokenless block but I'd be interested to know if anything on it would be considered a spad.



Probably some others too but none spring to mind.

SPAD indicators are slightly irrelevant as to weather they count or not as if you pass one which is flashing then you have already had a SPAD!

 

[Tomnick]

SPAD indicators are slightly irrelevant as to weather they count or not as if you pass one which is flashing then you have already had a SPAD!

Not necessarily - they flash on other lines approaching the point of possible conflict too!

 

[cool110]

SPAD indicators are slightly irrelevant as to weather they count or not as if you pass one which is flashing then you have already had a SPAD!

Isn't the rule to stop even if it was triggered by someone else's SPAD on an adjacent line?

 

[ComUtoR]

SPAD indicators are slightly irrelevant as to weather they count or not as if you pass one which is flashing then you have already had a SPAD!

Whilst true. I was more thinking about when the other person has spaded and the spad indicator either goes off on approach or it is "on" on arrival and you simply ignore it.

We have 3 that are on routes I sign and I have only seen 1 going off. A Driver at our depot had to reset one but couldn't remember where the button was so after a conversation with the signaler it was eventually reset but it did bring up the conversation where would it be a spad if you passed without authority. What if it flipped on approach and you hit the brakes but passed it ? As its a warning that the associated signal had been spaded and you may be heading towards a conflict. You personally may not have spaded.

Hope that's clearer.

 

[craigybagel]

Isn't the rule to stop even if it was triggered by someone else's SPAD on an adjacent line?

Even us guards are taught to put the brake in if we see one flashing.

There's a level crossing where you have to key it and wait for the white light (cant remember !!) (one in yalding) ?

Token block things ? I don't work tokenless block but I'd be interested to know if anything on it would be considered a spad.

Probably some others too but none spring to mind.

AOCL crossings have a flashing red light when they're open to vehicles which change to a flashing white light when open to trains.

NSTR lines have stop boards at the token exchange points, although they do also now have TPWS indicator lights as well.

 

[A-driver]

Fair points, I was more thinking of SPAD indicators on the same line as the signal.

Passing one wouldn't count as a SPAD as if you approach one at high speed and it starts going off as someone else has had a SPAD then you won't be able to stop before it (you won't have been checked down to it so it would be similar to the 'old money' cat BorC SPAD. If you didn't stop at all and it was proved you had good time to see it activate then you would likely be investigated for it.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Even us guards are taught to put the brake in if we see one flashing.



AOCL crossings have a flashing red light when they're open to vehicles which change to a flashing white light when open to trains.

NSTR lines have stop boards at the token exchange points, although they do also now have TPWS indicator lights as well.

Do guards always have access to the brakes on all classes of units (apart from a passcom activation)?

 

[A-driver]

Do guards always have access to the brakes on all classes of units (apart from a passcom activation)?

Only if they are in the back or middle cab.

 

[notadriver]

No they don't and nowadays they are usually expected to be inside the train so there would no chance of applying the brake.

That said some guards are more keen than others. I've heard of one that will apply the brake if they feel the train is going too fast.

 

[BestWestern]

Do guards always have access to the brakes on all classes of units (apart from a passcom activation)?

On a multiple unit the brake handle in any cab will be 'live' if placed into the Emergency position (I assume the new stuff is still the same?). Anything with old school Passcoms also gives direct access to the brakes of course. Some loco-hauled stock may have other means, for example the back end of a Class 43 has a brake valve which is accessible to the Guard.

Regarding SPADing things other than 'normal' signals, I recall an incident perhaps a year or two back, on one of the west country (I think) branches. The line had two ungated crossings, both requiring the train to come to a stand before proceeding across. A service failed to do this in both directions, was reported ISTR by a member of the public, and the unfortunate Driver ended up being had for four SPADs in one shift. Ouch :-/

 

[anonperson]

If a train was on a permissive line behind another train stopped at a signal (going on to depot maybe) and the driver decided to follow the train in front through the signal when it cleared before it went back to red, Is that a spad? Obviously it's going to be totally against the rules but if he had time to get through before it changed he hasn't actually passed a signal at danger. Just wondered if the driver might get away with that.

You'd get the sack, simple as that

 

[Dieseldriver]

On LUL passing a lit Rail Gap Indicator is classed as a SPAD.

 

[craigybagel]

No they don't and nowadays they are usually expected to be inside the train so there would no chance of applying the brake.

That said some guards are more keen than others. I've heard of one that will apply the brake if they feel the train is going too fast.

Indeed the only SPAD indicator on the routes I sign is very close to a major city so unless it's a very quiet train I'll still be doing a full ticket check when I pass it. The rule still stands though -if for whatever reason I'm in a position to see it activated, I'll stop the train.

On a multiple unit the brake handle in any cab will be 'live' if placed into the Emergency position (I assume the new stuff is still the same?). Anything with old school Passcoms also gives direct access to the brakes of course. Some loco-hauled stock may have other means, for example the back end of a Class 43 has a brake valve which is accessible to the Guard.

On our 175s even knocking the power/brake controller sets off an alarm in the drivers cab, and obviously putting it in to emergency will do just that.

There are of course various other ways a guard can stop a train that you will no doubt be aware of.

 

[anonperson]

Simple answer................NO, never, ever, never, contact the controlling signaller and follow the instructions given

 

[Howardh]

Near me there is a fixed speed camera which within a week at this time of year has it's lens covered by leaves!

How often are all signals checked to see that they are not covered by foliage and drivers can see them at all times? Second question, what about very thick fog? Is there a measurement at which trains simply can't move as signals can't be seen until the very last moment (if at all) or - perhaps even worse, localised patchy but dense fog?

 

[ComUtoR]

How often are all signals checked to see that they are not covered by foliage and drivers can see them at all times?

Every time a Driver goes past. If it is obscured in ANY way then it shoul dbe reported.

Second question, what about very thick fog? Is there a measurement at which trains simply can't move as signals can't be seen until the very last moment (if at all) or - perhaps even worse, localized patchy but dense fog?

The worst fog I've been in is not being able to see the signal going past the magnet. The worst snow can get really bad and you can't always see more than a few meters. Never in my experience have trains sopped running due to visibility.