Can I use an anytime return more than once?

[Prodigy]

I was reading on the site that I bought anytime return tickets for between Mossley and SOT that the tickets allow you to use the ticket from where your journey starts on and up to 5 days after the date shown on the ticket and return to the station using the same ticket upto a month after the date shown on the ticket.

With that in mind I was wondering what are the rules on making the outward journey twice so one on Tuesday and one on Wednesday, is there any rules against using it on more than one of the days?

 

[lyesbkz]

At the risk of stating the obvious, a 'Return' ticket allows you to make one return journey. That's one journey outward, and one back.

If you wish to make more journeys, purchase a Season ticket instead.

Edit: To clarify, the idea is if you are unable to travel on the ticket's first day of validity, then you have some leeway and can travel on any of the following 4 days instead. In the same way that you can't use the Return journey more than once just because it's valid for a calendar month, you may only make one Outward journey.

 

[Mike395]

I was reading on the site that I bought anytime return tickets for between Mossley and SOT that the tickets allow you to use the ticket from where your journey starts on and up to 5 days after the date shown on the ticket and return to the station using the same ticket upto a month after the date shown on the ticket.

With that in mind I was wondering what are the rules on making the outward journey twice so one on Tuesday and one on Wednesday, is there any rules against using it on more than one of the days?

Yes, and it's considered fraud to attempt it - as lyesbkz says, it's not designed as a season ticket

If you let us know whether you have any railcards or other discount entitlements, and the time of travel, it may be possible to get the additional one-way journey down in price, however

 

[185]

Yep. You have a choice of 5 days to start your journey from the date on it.

My last dealings with someone who tried to use one on all five of them ended in a four minute long court case.

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst all the above is very true don't forget that whilst you can only undertake one outward and return journey you can of course break that up into lots of little sections. So say for example you have an anytime return Kings Cross - Newcastle (and the deep pockets to actually buy one ) you could on day one travel Kings Cross - Peterborough stay overnight, day two Peterborough - York stay overnight, day three York - Darlington stay overnight and then finish your journey on day four. You could also do the same in reverse but spread that out over a month.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Some people take the mick with these anytime returns, notedly from experience those working at airports, who wish to keep their return ticket after having fully used it, so if the Guard doesn't mark it and they go through the manual gate at barriers they might often try to use it again....

 

[lyesbkz]

Some people take the mick with these anytime returns, notedly from experience those working at airports, who wish to keep their return ticket after having fully used it, so if the Guard doesn't mark it and they go through the manual gate at barriers they might often try to use it again....

Why can't barrier staff have a stamp or at least a pen, so that they are able to mark the ticket (if it has no further validity) when passengers ask to keep their ticket? A simple line across it wouldn't do any harm and would clearly indicate that the ticket had been used.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Why can't barrier staff have a stamp or at least a pen, so that they are able to mark the ticket (if it has no further validity) when passengers ask to keep their ticket? A simple line across it wouldn't do any harm and would clearly indicate that the ticket had been used.

Well some people keeping them in ticket wallets simply insist on only showing it but not surrendering the ticket, so you always end up in an argument if you want them to take the ticket out of the wallet!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Well some people keeping them in ticket wallets simply insist on only showing it but not surrendering the ticket, so you always end up in an argument if you want them to take the ticket out of the wallet!

Stand your ground, the law is on your side, make them take their ticket out and mark it as used if necessary. Failing to do so is giving people an opportunity to use the ticket more than once.

 

[Ferret]

Stand your ground, the law is on your side, make them take their ticket out and mark it as used if necessary. Failing to do so is giving people an opportunity to use the ticket more than once.

Even when it has been marked, some people will try it on. Only this week I caught a squaddie attempting it.

 

[lyesbkz]

Stand your ground, the law is on your side, make them take their ticket out and mark it as used if necessary. Failing to do so is giving people an opportunity to use the ticket more than once.

Precisely, after all I'm sure you have the right to remove the ticket from the wallet - if for nothing else then to check it's on genuine ticket stock!

 

[LexyBoy]

Precisely, after all I'm sure you have the right to remove the ticket from the wallet - if for nothing else then to check it's on genuine ticket stock!

Certainly - after all the ticket technically remains the property of the Railway.

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

 

[island]

Precisely, after all I'm sure you have the right to remove the ticket from the wallet - if for nothing else then to check it's on genuine ticket stock!

And the instructions to staff issuing tickets discounted with a Two Together Railcard (and presumably the other Railcards circulating) state that they should handle the Railcard and remove it from any wallet, in order to verify it's genuine.

 

[Roylang]

Why can't barrier staff have a stamp or at least a pen, so that they are able to mark the ticket (if it has no further validity) when passengers ask to keep their ticket? A simple line across it wouldn't do any harm and would clearly indicate that the ticket had been used.

But a simple mark is no use, I have had guards just put a line across a ticket on the journey. How would barrier staff know that such a mark had not been made during the journey just completed as opposed to having been made several days before?

Roy

 

[Flamingo]

Pen mark is no bloody use, all the passenger has to say is "that was me testing my pen" and you can't prove them wrong (even if they are known to you as a thieving fare-evading drug dealing piece of scum, as one regular on my patch is).

Standards are that the date, headcode and id number is the minimum that should be written on a ticket if stampers are not used. An X or squiggle is no use to anyone

 

[michael769]

The old hole punches were ideal for this....

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Unless it is place specific and dated then surely any other mark that any ticket examiner makes on an anytime return ticket is meaningless ?
Take a London to Edinburgh anytime return for instance. Leaving Kings Cross on Friday breaking the journey overnight at York, then again on Saturday at Newcastle arriving Edinburgh on Sunday, returning two weeks later breaking the journey at the same places overnight on the return.
If one of the ticket checking staff mark this with a pen or tear it or whatever are they then invalidating a perfectly valid ticket and giving a passenger who has paid a lot of money hassle trying to expalin this to subsequent ticket checking staff ?

 

[yorkie]

This is why, when using the outward portion of an Anytime return on a day after the first day of validity, I would be expected to produce a wholly unused return portion for inspection. If anyone failed to produce a wholly unused return portion, then a new ticket can be charged.

 

[Flamingo]

The old hole punches were ideal for this....

again, just means there is a hole in the ticket. "I broke my journey" covers that one.

 

[clagmonster]

Pen mark is no bloody use, all the passenger has to say is "that was me testing my pen" and you can't prove them wrong (even if they are known to you as a thieving fare-evading drug dealing piece of scum, as one regular on my patch is).

In that case, surely you could apply condition 23:
"23. If a ticket is damaged or altered
If a ticket has been damaged or has been tampered with or altered in any way, it is not
valid for travel. However, if you return it to the Train Company or travel agent which sold
it to you, they will arrange for a replacement ticket to be issued unless it has reason to
suspect that the ticket has, or will be, used for fraudulent or improper purposes. You may
have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10) for the replacement."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Presumably the procedure for a guard would be to ching up for a new SDS and advise the passenger to seek a refund at the purchasing office. The purchasing office can then have 'reason to suspect' that the mark was made by a previous guard gripping the ticket and refuse the refund request. Seems to get past that particular excuse quite nicely. Although you'll probably end up with@
"I broke my journey at Bath on a Brizzle-Padd SOR" which would be hard to dispute.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is why, when using the outward portion of an Anytime return on a day after the first day of validity, I would be expected to produce a wholly unused return portion for inspection. If anyone failed to produce a wholly unused return portion, then a new ticket can be charged.

Personally, I would expect a TIR and an investigation into whether the ticket was being reused. I'm not sure whether failing to present an unused return portion would be grounds for prosecution, but it must be some way to being there (particularly if there is a record of a previous such TIR).

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Why do so many ticket checking staff just use a pen to mark a ticket these days rather than a proper date stamping punch? Is it some kind of economy measure by the TOC's ?
Surely if a proper time/place/date stamp were used to mark the ticket then bona fide passengers using the ticket correctly would not have any problems.

 

[Flamingo]

This is why, when using the outward portion of an Anytime return on a day after the first day of validity, I would be expected to produce a wholly unused return portion for inspection. If anyone failed to produce a wholly unused return portion, then a new ticket can be charged.

Depends on having staff who are prepared to ask for it, and the return portion having been stamped as well. Barrier staff won't ask to see it, in my experience, and most on-train staff won't either - I will admit, I rarely think to do so - mind you, i don't work many morning trains, when they would be most in evidence!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why do so many ticket checking staff just use a pen to mark a ticket these days rather than a proper date stamping punch? Is it some kind of economy measure by the TOC's ?
Surely if a proper time/place/date stamp were used to mark the ticket then bona fide passengers using the ticket correctly would not have any problems.

Stampers are a franchise requirement in my TOC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In that case, surely you could apply condition 23:
"23. If a ticket is damaged or altered
If a ticket has been damaged or has been tampered with or altered in any way, it is not
valid for travel. However, if you return it to the Train Company or travel agent which sold
it to you, they will arrange for a replacement ticket to be issued unless it has reason to
suspect that the ticket has, or will be, used for fraudulent or improper purposes. You may
have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10) for the replacement."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Presumably the procedure for a guard would be to ching up for a new SDS and advise the passenger to seek a refund at the purchasing office. The purchasing office can then have 'reason to suspect' that the mark was made by a previous guard gripping the ticket and refuse the refund request. Seems to get past that particular excuse quite nicely. Although you'll probably end up with@
"I broke my journey at Bath on a Brizzle-Padd SOR" which would be hard to dispute.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally, I would expect a TIR and an investigation into whether the ticket was being reused. I'm not sure whether failing to present an unused return portion would be grounds for prosecution, but it must be some way to being there (particularly if there is a record of a previous such TIR).

I can't believe I have never thought of that! hock: I can't wait to see his face when I say that to him!

Goes to show, what I always say - if you look at any problem long enough and hard enough, with a thorough enough reading of the relevant rules, then you can always find some way to put the other person in the wrong!

 

[LexyBoy]

Stampers are a franchise requirement in my TOC.

On the relatively rare occasions I get a ticket check on my journey, it seems to be more often than not a scribble or even no mark at all.

In most cases I'd think that "I broke my journey" would be hard to dispute if there's only a scribble/hole to show that someone has checked it. Marking it with a date and headcode has got to be the best way (preferably with stampers which don't blur to illegibility the instant the ticket is handled).

 

[dvboy]

A lot of the tickets I have that have been stamped, the ink has smudged so they're just as useless. Even stamping with the date and headend doesn't prove a journey was or wasn't broken.

On the rare occasions barrier staff have tried to take my ticket, they have put a tear in it when I've asked to keep it as opposed to a stamp or pen mark. This seems common practice as it's happened at numerous stations.

 

[lyesbkz]

An X or squiggle is no use to anyone

Nor is the hole that Northern guards all seem to punch (especially when it goes through the magnetic stripe!) - do they even carry stampers? I don't think I've ever encountered a Northern guard with a stamper.

 

[Ferret]

A holepunch is useless! No better than a squiggle with a pen

 

[Old Timer]

Precisely, after all I'm sure you have the right to remove the ticket from the wallet - if for nothing else then to check it's on genuine ticket stock!

No there is no right to do that unless you have obtained a Court Order or are enpowered under Legislation.

The pasenger should be asked to remove the ticket themselves and hand it over for inspection. If they refuse then they can be cautioned and dealt with under S5 of the 1889 Act.

 

[Flamingo]

No there is no right to do that unless you have obtained a Court Order or are enpowered under Legislation.

The pasenger should be asked to remove the ticket themselves and hand it over for inspection. If they refuse then they can be cautioned and dealt with under S5 of the 1889 Act.

I was once told by one of the "old and bold" that the ticket wallet (if it was one that the TOC supplied) is also railway property, therefore it can be handled by railway staff without permission of the bearer.

I don't know if this is right or wrong, just repeating something I was once told. Any comments?

 

[tony_mac]

I doubt it - they freely hand them over at stations on request. (without any conditions attached to it).

Just because a rail company claims ownership doesn't automatically mean they can simply take it. e.g. if I lease a car, they can't just turn up one day and remove it because they feel like it, even though they own it.

(I also keep cash in mine as well as other cards, taking one could lead to possible accusations, I'm sure some people would just to cause trouble).

I'm also not so sure that just a pen mark on a ticket would count as being 'altered' - if that is the case then whenever a guard / rpi marks a ticket with a pen it would no longer officially be valid. The rules do not make any reference as to how it was 'altered'.

 

[Tracky]

I stamp, firmly, the outward part of any SOR I sell as it comes out of the Avantix...

Most passengers faces are a picture as as I hand it to them. When I am on the same job the following day I go to them first and they buy a day return off me... I recomend a season but they never take the suggestion.