Cardiff - Swansea Electrification Cancelled!

[YorkshireBear]

The problem is while some of the major cities have got electrified commuter networks, others in the UK have got nothing. Electrification in Manchester is patchy. In Leeds it's even more hit and miss. Sheffield, Bristol, Nottingham and Cardiff currently have no electrification. This doesn't happen in France and Germany never mind smaller European countries with less long rural lines. An Italian I know was criticising how little electrification there is in the UK only the other day.

The fact there is no accouncement about the cancellation of the Valleys lines is hopefully promising. It may signal shift of strategy to electrifying commuter lines around cities (which benefit more from electrification due to short distance between stations) with longer distance trains using the wires to enter the city to reduce emissions. Maybe I'm being too optimistic.

Exactly. Total percentage is another way to skew the stats. You do not see major cities not having an entirely electrified rail network in Germany very often. Those lines with diesels are few and far between and not the norm as they are in places such as Leeds, Manchester etc. Even Birmingham across the whole city has a large number of diesel local services.

 

[JonathanP]

Absolutely. While the percentage might not be that different, the operational situation is.

In Germany, all long distance services, with exception of one secondary main line which is being electrified, and a couple of branch lines which are the German equivalent of the Newquay branch, use electric haulage for the whole length of their journey. Virtually all freight is electric hauled, with diesel used for shunting and last mile workings down industrial branch lines.

What I see in the UK is a lack of joined up thinking when it comes to electrification, or of any interest in development of cross country services.
Is there any Cross Country service which could be operated by electric traction? Manchester - Birmingham I guess, if you count that.

The quotes from the DfT are completely logic free. “Passengers will benefit sooner and experience less disruption compared with putting up intrusive wires and masts along routes where they are no longer required,”

Why are they "no longer required"? Because you decided you didn't want them :mad:

I despair..

 

[CentralTrainer]

http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/grayling-rail-scandal-exposed.html

Grayling Rail Scandal EXPOSED

A slice of PR spin that would not have been out of place emanating from the Ministry of Truth was sneaked out today by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling. This told of all the wonderful new developments which would be taking place on the national rail network. Except what it actually told was that many of the developments that had been promised for many years would no longer be taking place. It was, mostly, an excuse note.

Several electrification schemes had been on the drawing board; some were actually in progress - until today. In particular, Grayling’s good news included the curtailment for the foreseeable future of schemes to electrify from Cardiff to Swansea, Kettering to Sheffield via both Derby and Nottingham, and even Oxenholme to Windermere in the Lake District.

So what happens when the shiny new electric trains from London arrive at Cardiff, or, more to the point, pass Kettering at a steady 110mph? Ah, but all will not be lost, as the great Grayling tells “New bi-mode train technology offers seamless transfer from diesel power to electric that is undetectable to passengers”. The sound of jaws hitting the deck will be audible anywhere anyone knows one end of the rail industry from the other.

There is nothing “seamless” about bi-mode technology. Yes, the train keeps moving, but on approaching the end of the wires, the diesel engines have to be fired up. The amount of power they can deliver is less than the energy that can be drawn down from the overhead wires, so the train will not accelerate as rapidly. It may slow noticeably on adverse gradients. The passengers will know there is an engine at work under the floor.

But what is worst is that this technology is a less reliable cop-out. Diesel technology is always going to be less reliable than straight electric - there are more moving parts to potentially go wrong. And the trains make less efficient use of the electrified railway, because they weigh more (the dead weight of the diesel engines and fuel tanks) and therefore draw more current. This, too, impacts on performance.

You only get electric train performance and economies ... from electric trains

For those travelling to Windermere, there is a yet greater cop-out: “The industry is also developing alternative fuel trains, using battery and hydrogen power”. The spurious concept invented by Roger Ford, technical editor of Modern Railways magazine, of the “Bionic Duckweed” powered train, comes readily to mind.

When Grayling eagerly tells “we will only electrify lines where it delivers a genuine benefit to passengers … we can improve journeys … sooner than expected … instead of carrying out disruptive electrification works along the whole of these routes”, he is talking the most disingenuous claptrap. From Oxenholme to Windermere, for instance, there would be little disruption, and the electrification could be fed from the West Coast Main Line supply at Oxenholme. Instead, there is the promise of Bionic Duckweed. Or maybe batteries.

There is a good reason all other European Railways are electrifying, and using bi-mode trains as nothing more than a stop-gap, if at all - there is no substitute for electric working when it comes to clean, energy-efficient, comfortable and above all faster and less expensive trains. We pay less money by not electrifying, we pay more in energy costs, maintenance, and other downtime. This announcement is the ultimate false economy.

But it’s the ultimate challenge for the PR wonks, so that’s all right, then.

 

[Oliver]

England and Scotland's second cities had electrified routes to their capital in the 1960s; yet Wales' second city (Swansea) has been left high and dry.

Being a 'second city' is meaningless. Swansea has a smaller population than Plymouth, which is way down the list of English city populations. Cardiff has a smaller population than Wakefield.

http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uk_topcities.html

 

[Darandio]

So it was in no way, shape or form your intention to suggest that they would be unreliable then? Do us a favour.

I said....

I really don't see how the reliability of a Class 395 is at all relevant to the reliability of a Class 800/802.

Wher on earth does that state that I am suggesting they would be unreliable? :-?

 

[Envoy]

Being a 'second city' is meaningless. Swansea has a smaller population than Plymouth, which is way down the list of English city populations. Cardiff has a smaller population than Wakefield.

http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uk_topcities.html

It is not just about population size but also hinterland population that counts. The land area covered by the City & County of Cardiff is relatively small. However, had the County of Cardiff included Penarth, Barry, Llantrisant, Pontypridd Caerphilly etc. then the population would have been larger. Furthermore, being the Capital of Wales and including major sporting & entertainment venues as well as being a major retailing centre, means that the number of travellers to this city would far exceed that expected for the size of population. Throw in the number of valley line services that feed into Cardiff Central from places further out such as Merthyr and Rhymney and we have even greater numbers joining the main line trains at the Central station.

A good way of assessing passengers flows is to look at the road/motorway network. The M4 right across south Wales has considerable flows of traffic and thus indicates that the railway would/is also carrying considerable numbers of people. Unfortunately, the rail computer system tells passengers from the east to usually change trains at Newport for travel to west Wales as this is the first junction where the trains from Manchester meet the GWR mainline. This can result in people leaving HST’s and cramming into ATW’s short trains when they could have done this at Swansea.

 

[Envoy]

Alun Cairns has said that because the technology has changed, the solution has changed and we can take advantage of that and bring the new trains to Swansea. Well, no, the technology of hybrid Hitachi trains was known at the outset as some of the fleet were going to be bi-mode to reach places like Hereford & Cheltenham. What has changed is the fact that Network Rail have failed to deliver the electrification project on time and to cost resulting in £300 million? extra having to be spent to make all the new trains bi-mode rather than electric.

Watch Alun Cairns on the ITV Wales News to hear exactly what he has to say:>
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2017-...o-swansea-this-autumn-with-modern-technology/

Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns has defended the government's decision to scrap rail electrification plans to Swansea.

I also note that a huge amount of money has been spent building a new road on a viaduct into the Ely Mill site around 2 miles west of Cardiff Central. Surely, it would have been better if this money had been used to make a new high level road bridge over the mainline to replace the A48 bridge and thus offset the costs of electrification west of Cardiff against that of accessing the Ely Mill development area? The location of this is on this map - which does not show the new road link which is entirely south of the railway:> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4840878,-3.2256737,722m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[squizzler]

I see that the tolls over the Severn Bridge are to be dropped. Good news for motorists, at least until the bridge falls into the Severn because nobody considered that money is needed to maintain the structure.

Also in recent weeks the WAG decided out the blue to make bus travel free on the Trawscymru network, at least for now on the weekends.

It's not so much Bread of Heaven as the old Roman policy of bread and circuses to retain popularity. No wonder no business case can be made for infrastructure investment in Wales

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also in recent weeks the WAG decided out the blue to make bus travel free on the Trawscymru network, at least for now on the weekends.

Wales would be such an easy country, with its simple layout and relatively low frequencies, to do a properly integrated single-fare transport system fully integrating buses and trains - ATW's desire to secede from ORCATS might even be justified if they did. Yet they waste money on this nonsense instead.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Alun Cairns has said that because the technology has changed, the solution has changed and we can take advantage of that and bring the new trains to Swansea. Well, no, the technology of hybrid Hitachi trains was known at the outset as some of the fleet were going to be bi-mode to reach places like Hereford & Cheltenham. What has changed is the fact that Network Rail have failed to deliver the electrification project on time and to cost resulting in £300 million? extra having to be spent to make all the new trains bi-mode rather than electric.

Watch Alun Cairns on the ITV Wales News to hear exactly what he has to say:>
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2017-...o-swansea-this-autumn-with-modern-technology/



]

Typical Govt Minister soundbite trying to convincingly spin a line hes been given without understanding what hes been given he might even believe the guff he as saying.....

However privately the Welsh Conservatives are absolutely furious with Grayling for it as its been a Tory bashing bonanza over broken promises and failing to invest in Wales.

 

[Oliver]

It is not just about population size but also hinterland population that counts. The land area covered by the City & County of Cardiff is relatively small. However, had the County of Cardiff included Penarth, Barry, Llantrisant, Pontypridd Caerphilly etc. then the population would have been larger. Furthermore, being the Capital of Wales and including major sporting & entertainment venues as well as being a major retailing centre, means that the number of travellers to this city would far exceed that expected for the size of population. Throw in the number of valley line services that feed into Cardiff Central from places further out such as Merthyr and Rhymney and we have even greater numbers joining the main line trains at the Central station.

A good way of assessing passengers flows is to look at the road/motorway network. The M4 right across south Wales has considerable flows of traffic and thus indicates that the railway would/is also carrying considerable numbers of people. Unfortunately, the rail computer system tells passengers from the east to usually change trains at Newport for travel to west Wales as this is the first junction where the trains from Manchester meet the GWR mainline. This can result in people leaving HST’s and cramming into ATW’s short trains when they could have done this at Swansea.

Yes, that's true, but Plymouth and Wakefield have a hinterland too. My point is that just because Swansea is the second largest town in Wales it does not make it special or put it in the same league as Glasgow or Birmingham.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Being a 'second city' is meaningless. Swansea has a smaller population than Plymouth, which is way down the list of English city populations. Cardiff has a smaller population than Wakefield.

http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uk_topcities.html

Wakefield has a population of 76,000 according to Wikipedia, district population of 315,000 compared to Cardiff's 370,000, bit of a difference!

 

[Solaris]

These are 2016 mid yr pop estimates for the ten local authorities of the Cardiff Capital Region...

https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Population-and-Migration/Population/Estimates/Local-Authority/populationestimates-by-localauthority-year

Bridgend 143k
Vale of Glamorgan 128k
Cardiff 361k
Rhondda Cynon Taf 238k
Merthyr Tydfil 60k
Caerphilly 180k
Blaenau Gwent 69k
Torfaen 92k
Monmouthshire 92k
Newport 149k

 

[diapason]

The government found £1billion to keep itself in power, but can't find the cash for infrastructure, Have I missed something? If the new trains are to chug up Landore bank on diesel power, it would make sense for them to go as far as Fishguard.

 

[jimm]

The government found £1billion to keep itself in power, but can't find the cash for infrastructure, Have I missed something? If the new trains are to chug up Landore bank on diesel power, it would make sense for them to go as far as Fishguard.

Why? People wouldn't suddenly abandon their cheap flights to and from Ireland and switch back to the ferries if IEPs trundled all the way to Fishguard and back.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Why? People wouldn't suddenly abandon their cheap flights to and from Ireland and switch back to the ferries if IEPs trundled all the way to Fishguard and back.

Friend of mine got the day Fishguard - Cardiff the other day-40 passengers on a 150 .....that is the reality.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why? People wouldn't suddenly abandon their cheap flights to and from Ireland and switch back to the ferries if IEPs trundled all the way to Fishguard and back.

One day the make believe finances of "cheap flights" will fall apart and then well need more than 2 car DMU to met the ferry.....

 

[jimm]

One day the make believe finances of "cheap flights" will fall apart and then well need more than 2 car DMU to met the ferry.....

Maybe, if airlines ever have to pay tax on their fuel, but there is no sign whatever of that happening as it would take a global agreement between governments, so I won't be holding my breath.

And the railways in this country aren't exactly strangers to make-believe finances.

 

[topydre]

I can't find an English language version, but Golwg360 reports that Ken Skates, Wales' Transport Minister, has written to Chris Grayling (UK Transport Secretary) asking for the £700m that had been earmarked for Cardiff-Swansea electrification to be invested in other rail projects in Wales.
Not going to happen, but it's worth a try!

Dylai’r £700 miliwn sy’n cael ei arbed wrth beidio trydaneiddio’r rheilffordd rhwng Caerdydd ac Abertawe gael ei ail-fuddsoddi mewn prosiectau rheilffyrdd eraill yng Nghymru, yn ôl Llywodraeth Cymru.

Maen nhw’n galw hefyd ar i bwerau dros seilwaith rheilffyrdd gael eu datganoli ar unwaith i weinidogion Cymru.

Mewn llythyr at Weinidog Trafnidiaeth Prydain, Chris Grayling, dywed Ysgrifennydd yr Economi Llywodraeth Cymru, Ken Skates, fod y cyhoeddiad i beidio â thrydaneiddio wedi bod yn un “siomedig iawn”.

“Byddai’r cynllun wedi bod yn fanteisiol iawn o ran amserau teithio, effeithlonrwydd ac allyriadau, gan hybu twf economaidd drwy dde Cymru,” meddai.

“Byddwn yn croesawu ymrwymiad gennych i sicrhau bod y £700 miliwn o gyllid a fyddai wedi cael ei neilltuo ar gyfer trydaneiddio i Abertawe yn cael ei neilltuo ar gyfer prosiectau eraill yng Nghymru.

“Rhaid i hyn fod yn ychwanegol at gyfran deg o gyllid yn cael ei ddyrannu i Gymru ar gyfer gwelliannau eraill i reilffyrdd yn y dyfodol.”

 

[The Decapod]

Well there we have it, the tories just don't do trains, or Wales for that matter.

Apart from HS2, of course! [irony]

 

[Envoy]

So, last week one Government minister (Chris Grayling) decides to leave the Cardiff to Swansea route with diesel trains - even though a new fleet capable of running on electricity is due to start arriving this autumn. (The local stoppers could also have been electric powered). Today, another Government Minister - Michael Gove, says that we must get rid of petrol and diesel cars over the coming years so as to reduce pollution. You could not make it up!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I really despair - and I am a lifelong conservative supporter

 

[CdBrux]

2040 for cars. Could quite easily have Swansea wired by then, plus valleys etc... if money no object. I suspect however there will be quite some long non electrified sections of rail around well beyond that.

Another consideration: how much de-pollution bang for your buck do you get from electrification vs stopping diesel cars? I suspect if you want to make a pollution difference you are far better off concentrating on cars vs trains. I would hope in general a diesel train journey is better for pollution levels than the car journeys it can replace say even at less than 50% capacity of the train.

 

[coppercapped]

I really despair - and I am a lifelong conservative supporter

Why? If reducing air pollution at the point of use is the new sacred cow then if electrically powered road vehicles can meet the requirement at a cost that people can afford and railway electrification has priced itself out of the market - well, so be it.

Though possibly, just possibly, the threat of not being able to run trains might concentrate some minds...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I can't find an English language version, but Golwg360 reports that Ken Skates, Wales' Transport Minister, has written to Chris Grayling (UK Transport Secretary) asking for the £700m that had been earmarked for Cardiff-Swansea electrification to be invested in other rail projects in Wales.
Not going to happen, but it's worth a try!

English translation of that (translated by Google):

The £ 700 million saved by not being railway electrification between Cardiff and Swansea can be reinvested in other rail projects in Wales, according to the Welsh Government.

They also called for powers to be devolved railway infrastructure immediately Welsh ministers.

In a letter to British Transport Minister, Chris Grayling, says Secretary of the Economy Welsh Government, Ken Skates, the publication not to be electrified has been a "very disappointing".

"The plan would have been very beneficial in terms of journey times, efficiency and emissions, by promoting economic growth through South Wales," he said.

"We welcome your commitment to ensure that the £ 700 million of funding that would have been allocated for electrification to Swansea will be set aside for other projects in Wales.

"This must be in addition to a fair share of funding will be allocated to Wales for other improvements to rail in the future."

 

[CdBrux]

Does that mean that if the Welsh Government want to they could spend the 700m on electrification between Cardiff and Swansea, or does it remain at central gov discretion?

 

[Envoy]

If the Welsh Government firstly electrified the Cardiff to Maesteg route - which includes the mainline as far as Bridgend, then it would look pretty ridiculous for the UK government not to electrify the relatively short distance between Bridgend and Swansea.

On the Neath to Swansea section we have the ‘listed’ Brunel built flying arches. Well, I am sorry, but I just think it is ridiculous to list these as if they are some sort of ancient monument. Theses things would need to be removed for electrification and surely we would have a relatively cheap way of stabilising the embankments? Look at what the Victorians achieved - often just using human manpower. Here we are with all out modern machines and we can’t get the railways electrified to time and budget. Wonder what the Victorians would make of all this?

 

[colchesterken]

Now if the Welsh elected some Conservatives to Westminster they could have had the electric railway in exchange for their votes as per the DUP in N Ireland
Let that be a lesson to them

 

[topydre]

English translation of that (translated by Google):

Thanks for making the effort Yes, I probably should have translated it myself. Google is very... optimistic!! It's a request for the re-allocation of £700m to Wales' railways:
(Excuse my annotations...)

The £700 million which is being saved through not electrifying the railway between Cardiff and Swansea SHOULD be re-invested in other railway projects in Wales, according to the Welsh Government. (Nice try...)

They are also calling for powers concerning railway infrastructure to be immediately devolved to Welsh ministers. (Your party opposed this in the Silk Commission consultation a couple of years ago!)

In a letter to the British Transport Minister, Chris Grayling, the Welsh Government Economy Secretary, Ken Skates, says that the announcement to not electrify is "very disappointing". (Novel and adventurous choice of words Mr Skates, couldn't have done better myself...)

"The plan would have been very advantageous in terms of travel times, efficiency and emissions, promoting economic growth throughout south Wales", he said.

We WOULD welcome a commitment from you to ensure that the £700 million budget that would have been earmarked for electrifying to Swansea will be earmarked for other projects in Wales. (and again... nice try)

"This must be additional to the fair share of budget being distributed to Wales for improvements to railways in the future." (yet again... nice try; though this would have been ensured by the Barnet Formula if your party had agreed to rail devolution)

 

[snowball]

Now if the Welsh elected some Conservatives to Westminster they could have had the electric railway in exchange for their votes as per the DUP in N Ireland
Let that be a lesson to them

No, because if they had been Conservatives they would have been expected to vote with the government anyway. They would have had to be a different party to merit a bribe.