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Cities in need of an extra station.

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John55

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In Manchester, you had the situation of Manchester Victoria/Exchange, Manchester London Road and Manchester Central being three city-centre station complexes totally unconnected, as the example of Bradford you cite above, which were historically situated as such because of three large railway companies jealously guarding their own main-line station site in the city.

At least the Bury Metrolink service now links Manchester Victoria and Manchester Piccadilly stations, with the heavy-rail hope of the Ordsall Chord still to come into fruition.

My understanding of the Manchester situation is that the Town (later City) Council refused access to the city centre so the railway companies built terminal stations around the edge at Liverpool Road, Salford, Oldham Road and Store St during the 1830s.

To overcome this limitation railways were built to the north and south of the city centre in the 1840s to link the east/south and west/north facing railways. These were the Ordsall Lane to Miles Platting lines (LNWR/LYR) and South Junction Railway (LNWR/MSLR). These created stations at Victoria, and Oxford Rd. These stations and the stations at Store St/London Road were used by more than one company or by jointly owned companies.

The later additions at Exchange and Mayfield were due to traffic exceeding the capacity of the existing stations not due to any rivalry between companies.

The final station at Central was built very much later by the Cheshire Lines Railway which was also a jointly owned company. So apart possibly from the station at Central there isn't much sign of jealously guarded station sites. Even with Central it is hard to see how in 1880 any significant traffic from the CLC main line could be easily managed on the busy South Junction Line.
 
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cle

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Could Chester maybe have one out towards the racecourse?
 

Waverley125

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The situation at Leeds has a fairly obvious problem-one of the throughs (platform 8) is needed to stable EC stock for London runs throughout the day, and so can't be used. 15 & 16 are needed for the regular TPE services, and there's been talk of a 5th and even a 6th hourly train through them, the delay potential with services from far afield is huge. This leaves 9, 11a, 11c and 12c for through services, as 12a is, like 10 and 13, used for stoppers on the Wakefield/Caldervale lines.

The first thing that can be done is to isolate the northeast side of the station-that is, trains heading out via Armley (i.e. Airedale/Wharfedale/Harrogate lines) to not cross any other lines. By constructing 2 new platforms to the north of the current platform 1, and reinstating the most northerly approach line, you can isolate this entire section. If running 6tph to Apperley Bridge Junction, and 4tph to Harrogate, there should still be enough space, if what will then be platforms 1-6 (current 1-4 + 2 news) are used.

Of the existing bays this leaves 6, again, used for EC services, and 5. 5 is currently mainly used for services over the S&C & Little North Western lines. Personally I'd like to see an hourly frequency on both of these, and potentially an hourly Glasgow service via the S&C and GSWR. Even so, 3tph should be easily coped with by 5. So that's that sorted.

This is then where things get tricky. For we now have 9, 10, 11a, 11c, 12a, 12c
and 13 to run both Wakefield line & Caldervale line services off. If the assumption is that 9 & 11c are XC platforms for through services, 11a, 12 & 13 to the rest. Giving 10 & 11a over to EMUs on the Wakefield reduces cross-platform clash, even if you're running 2tph Doncaster 2tph Sheffield. 6tph on the Caldervale will be tight on just 12 and 13, so again, problems here.

Worst is the south end of the station, where if you wanted to run, say, 2tph Knottingley, 2tph Sheffield and 2tph Sheffield (express) via the Hallam/Pontefract lines you currentlh have solely platform 17. A new platform 18 (which would, of course, with our two new platforms already become platform 20), connected by angled bridge & travelator from the current concourse to the old Coal Dock could relieve some of the pressure, but still, it's a tight fit.

So even for the western approach, if you increase service to the levels desired by some people (certainly the Five Towns are keen for more services), then it's really going to have to be four new platforms to the north, in order to take the wakefield line services as well as the A&W/Harrogate ones. This basically obliterates Leeds station carpark.

Moreover, still there's a problem in the east. With 9 fast services, and still no York/Selby stoppers accounted for (2 each would bring the line up to 13), there's a bit of a problem getting 13tph along that viaduct. By building a station at Marsh Lane, you can firstly take the stoppers out of the eastern bays, reducing the number of trains you have to force through the viaduct. You also create a much smaller isolated section, whereby as soon as one of the Marsh Lane through platforms is freed, the next train can be cleared to depart City.

Also, as a Leodensian, a station at Marsh Lane serving the newly regenerating area at Quarry Hill, Clarence Dock & inner city east Leeds would be very beneficial to the city.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The later additions at Exchange and Mayfield were due to traffic exceeding the capacity of the existing stations not due to any rivalry between companies.

You will note from the groupage that I so described in my posting (Victoria and Exchange are stated as a single site grouping) that your clarification was not really needed. There was not much love lost between any of the main railway companies after the 1850 period.

Even the railway station at London Road was treated as two totally different stations by the two main companies that used this, even to a platform description of numerical use by one and alphabetical use by the other. Look where companies such as the Midland Railway chose to place their goods stations, as Ardwick does not readily spring to mind as a Midland stronghold in Manchester
 

Waverley125

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also, in complete contrast to the title, a City that actual needs fewer stations would be Bradford. Getting rid of Both Interchange & Forster Square & replacing them with a new station on Hall Ings/Bolton Road/Lower Kirkgate linking the Airedale and Caldervale lines together would be much better.

Although, in the event of Forster Square closing, the business case for a Manningham station on Queens Road (by Valley Parade) does get much better.
 

RichmondCommu

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Derby could have benefited from having another station on the line south of the city (after Peartree). A Parkway station at Stenson Fields could have served those living in the sprawling south-west of the city (and surrounding areas).

Given that I was born and raised in Derby, I'm not sure that this makes sense. The bus service from Stenson Fields into the city centre is pretty good and for those living in Chellaston it would be quicker to take the A50 to East Midlands Parkway. And from what I can gather that is not exactly booming!

On a separate note, given the size of the Oakwood estate (which incidentally is much bigger then Stenson Fields) and its proximity to Spondon I'm always surprised that the station there has not benefited from this. For anybody from Oakwood working in Nottingham, Spondon station is closer than Derby.
 
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John55

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You will note from the groupage that I so described in my posting (Victoria and Exchange are stated as a single site grouping) that your clarification was not really needed. There was not much love lost between any of the main railway companies after the 1850 period.

Even the railway station at London Road was treated as two totally different stations by the two main companies that used this, even to a platform description of numerical use by one and alphabetical use by the other. Look where companies such as the Midland Railway chose to place their goods stations, as Ardwick does not readily spring to mind as a Midland stronghold in Manchester

My point was that railway companies co-operated to achieve their objectives and jealously guarding their sites was an exaggeration. The driver for investment was almost always the need for additional capacity not arguements although this might happen occasionally

The Midland built a Goods Depot at Ancoats/Ardwick because that is were they could easily get to by means of their original route into Manchester vis the MSLR to London Rd. In 1870 when the depot was built where was a Midland stronghold in Manchester? After all they spent (wasted?) an awful lot of their shareholders money in 1875-1902 building so many railways in south Manchester.
 

Aictos

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In 1998, Peterborough City Council were considering building a Parkway station near to the Hampton township which would help reduce the numbers of commuters having to drive into the City Centre to use the main station but also considered a station for either the Walton/Werrington townships.

Further information is available here

Now while the second option would suit me personally to have a single platform served by the bi-directional Up Slow in either the Walton/Werrington townships which could also see use by other local stopping services, realistically I fail to see this happening due to pathing needs.
 

billio

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also, in complete contrast to the title, a City that actual needs fewer stations would be Bradford. Getting rid of Both Interchange & Forster Square & replacing them with a new station on Hall Ings/Bolton Road/Lower Kirkgate linking the Airedale and Caldervale lines together would be much better.

Although, in the event of Forster Square closing, the business case for a Manningham station on Queens Road (by Valley Parade) does get much better.

Then electrify the Leeds to Bradford Interchange and run trains from Airedale through Bradford to Leeds.

I don't think you could close Interchange as it is also the major bus station (hence the name).

However, although there is a big, big empty space in the middle of Bradford, there is a quite a difference in height between the two stations about 40 feet in 2,400 feet distance. Also existing buildings are in the way. There may be enough space to route tracks around the Courts, at the expense of car parks, but a number of modern buildings would have to be demolished near Forster Square, including the station, which I presume would be re-built at a higher level to lessen the gradient and making it more convenient for shoppers who currently use lifts or climb up and down steps.

I am little surprised that Bradford City Council doesn't press for this as a part of regenerating the city.
 

tbtc

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Then electrify the Leeds to Bradford Interchange and run trains from Airedale through Bradford to Leeds.

I don't think you could close Interchange as it is also the major bus station (hence the name).

However, although there is a big, big empty space in the middle of Bradford, there is a quite a difference in height between the two stations about 40 feet in 2,400 feet distance. Also existing buildings are in the way. There may be enough space to route tracks around the Courts, at the expense of car parks, but a number of modern buildings would have to be demolished near Forster Square, including the station, which I presume would be re-built at a higher level to lessen the gradient and making it more convenient for shoppers who currently use lifts or climb up and down steps.

I am little surprised that Bradford City Council doesn't press for this as a part of regenerating the city.

I'm not sure how any "through" Bradford service would work, I guess it'd depend on electrification.

The logical thing to would would be to run a half hourly Leeds - Bradford Interchange - Forster Square - Shipley - Keighley - Skipton service and a half hourly Manchester - Rochdale - Halifax - Bradford Interchange - Forster Square - Shipley - Leeds service (thus replacing the current Forster Square - Leeds services and the current Forster Square - Skipton services.

However that'd mean DMUs replacing EMUs, so you'd need to wire the Caldervale line in its entirety (plus also to Blackpool etc). The electrification situation really messes any potential benefits up, because you'd need to wire up a lot of northern England to get the real benefits from being able to run "through" services at Bradford.
 

Ivo

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First of all, 40ft in 2,400ft isn't that much of an issue. Tunneling may be something else.

Would there be a case for operating a loop service? Starting at Leeds, it would call at all stations, including whichever stations in Bradford happen to exist, and then running back on the other route? Such a local route would also make Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall (correct?) more appealing upon opening as they would be likely to have a more frequent service with better connections at the Bradford end. This would only necessitate wiring from Interchange to Leeds.
 

VTPreston_Tez

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The north parts of City of Preston in the Barton and Garstang districts could do with a station. Their only main bus is half-hourly to the bus station so this incurs a work. Even if it was only Northern and TPE that made calls it would be a drastic improvement, even if the Glasgow/Edinburgh services only made one call each a day.
There is much room especially across from Barton Grange and it is near two villages as well as Barton Grange being a major Lancashire garden centre. Profits could be boosted to further improve Barton Grange as well as giving the locals a decent rail service. (Connecting midibuses operated by Preston Bus/Stagecoach may be needed to connect the far away villages to the station in worst case scenario however)
 

Waverley125

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The wiring, continuous with the existing TP wiring, would be Deighton-Brighouse-Halifax-Bradford.

Trains would then operate Leeds-Bradford-Leeds and Skipton-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield. This would get rid of a) the 'Grand tour' saving at least a couple of 158s for redistribution elsewhere, and b) ensure pathing through Bradford wasn't a problem, as tbtc's plan creates two sets of conflicting movements across the station throat, which is considerably less than ideal.

Billio-yes, I know it's the bus station as well, I live a few miles away. The likely result would be a new station, and then signposting/subway to the bus station, or even a footbridge, given the likely best site is only just round the Courts building.

As for the height difference, you'd re-instate the old Exchange gradient to go under Bridge Street, level off & round the courts building, then Bridge over Hall Ings, have the station on Bolton Road, then cross the Post Office site (plans to demolish) & access the existing trackbed, with a gradual meeting the existing gradient somewhere near Valley Parade. This would require the demolition of 1 unit of the Forster Square retail park, but that's it.
 

tbtc

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Would there be a case for operating a loop service? Starting at Leeds, it would call at all stations, including whichever stations in Bradford happen to exist, and then running back on the other route? Such a local route would also make Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall (correct?) more appealing upon opening as they would be likely to have a more frequent service with better connections at the Bradford end. This would only necessitate wiring from Interchange to Leeds.

The wiring, continuous with the existing TP wiring, would be Deighton-Brighouse-Halifax-Bradford.

Trains would then operate Leeds-Bradford-Leeds

At the moment there are four trains an hour from Leeds to Bradford Interchange (through Pudsey etc). There are approx five trains an hour from Leeds on the Shipley line (plus two to Ilkley).

Those frequencies are probably about okay, the main issue is the length of the trains on the Bradford Interchange line.

Since one of the main points of this thread is that Leeds station is at capacity I'm not sure that running additional services would be the answer...

Trains would then operate Leeds-Bradford-Leeds and Skipton-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield. This would get rid of a) the 'Grand tour' saving at least a couple of 158s for redistribution elsewhere, and b) ensure pathing through Bradford wasn't a problem, as tbtc's plan creates two sets of conflicting movements across the station throat, which is considerably less than ideal

So you'd reduce the Leeds - Halifax service by 25%? One of the busiest services in West Yorkshire? The "Grand Tour" service makes up one of the four trains an hour between the two places.
 

Waverley125

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You could bring the service back up with a second service via the Huddersfield line & Brighouse, but my main plan would be reinstatement of both the Bowling Curve & four lines between Armley Junction & Shipley, allowing the services to be broken down like this:

Leeds-Bradford Interchange-Leeds (Bradfod Loop)
Skipton-Ilkley-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield (Bradford Crossrail)
Leeds-Bradford (Wakefield Road)-Halifax-Huddersfield
Leeds-Dewsbury-Brighouse-Caldervale towns
Bradford-Manchester Victoria

I'd also reinstate the line between Low Moor & Thornhill Junction, allowing for Bradford-Dewsbury-Wakefield Kirkgate running as part of Bradford Crossrail.

As the Mirfield-Kirkgate-Leeds line will make sense to electrify for diversionary reasons, this couples in with that.
 

tbtc

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You could bring the service back up with a second service via the Huddersfield line & Brighouse, but my main plan would be reinstatement of both the Bowling Curve & four lines between Armley Junction & Shipley, allowing the services to be broken down like this:

Leeds-Bradford Interchange-Leeds (Bradfod Loop)
Skipton-Ilkley-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield (Bradford Crossrail)
Leeds-Bradford (Wakefield Road)-Halifax-Huddersfield
Leeds-Dewsbury-Brighouse-Caldervale towns
Bradford-Manchester Victoria

I'd also reinstate the line between Low Moor & Thornhill Junction, allowing for Bradford-Dewsbury-Wakefield Kirkgate running as part of Bradford Crossrail.

As the Mirfield-Kirkgate-Leeds line will make sense to electrify for diversionary reasons, this couples in with that.

Skipton - Ilkley?

I'm happy to debate the merits of a route through the centre of Bradford, but we appear to have wandered off into fantasyworld. Again.
 

Waverley125

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Sorry, meant Shipley. My Bad.

Ideal end result for Bradford Crossrail

Skipton-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield: 1tph
Skipton-Bradford-Dewsbury Moor-Wakefield: 1tph
Ilkley-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield: 1tph
Ilkley-Bradford-Dewsbury Moor-Wakefield: 1tph

would also involve station reopenings at Cleckheaton, Liversedge, Heckmondwike, Dewsbury Moor, Thornhill Lees & Horbury Bridge on the Wakefield arm, and Elland, Northowram and Hipperholme on the Huddersfield arm.
 

SN74LS123N

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Skipton-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield: 1tph
Skipton-Bradford-Dewsbury Moor-Wakefield: 1tph
Ilkley-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield: 1tph
Ilkley-Bradford-Dewsbury Moor-Wakefield: 1tph

It's worth pointing out that these new journey opportunities all save capacity at Leeds City. By avoiding the need for passengers to travel into Leeds, change trains, and travel out again, money spent on Bradford Crossrail etc would save money otherwise to be spent on the ever more difficult job of upgrading Leeds City. It's not £1 for £1, but it does improve the cost/benefit considerably.

Not going to happen, though. Why would Leeds City Region want to alleviate Leeds-centricity? Each £ spent in Leeds is a £ towards Leeds World Domination.
 

Waverley125

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Leeds-centricity of the LCR isn't just due to transport though, but to continued investment in Leeds and not in other places, which has led to Leeds being increcibly dominant over the immediate Urban area. Many people don't realise it, but Huddersfield is now economically more productive than Bradford, and second only to York in terms of 'other towns within the LCR', mainly due to its position as a great commuter base for both Leeds & Manchester, and its large suburbs which contain some of the nicest places to live in the country.

As for reducing the problems at LDS, yes it would, and that would be a very good idea.

I'd also (dare to dream) eventually like to see electrified Wakefield-Goole via Knottingley and Wakefield-Doncaster via Knottingley

So that you could also run 1tph Huddersfield-Goole and 1tph Huddersfield-Doncaster. Giving Hudds-Wakey 2tph, retaining the hourly Wakefield-Knottingley, and, if included as a Pontefract line extension, 2tph between Pontefract, Knottingley & Doncaster.

It's something often not realised but the population of what you'd reasonably define as 'Greater Leeds' (i.e. the LCR minus York & Barnsley) is around 2.25 million, and its public transport is incredibly poor.
 

tbtc

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This is the problem with these threads, they start off with a good hypothesis (how would linking Bradford's two central stations affect things) and go off into discussing replacing the one a day DMU from Knottingley to Goole with an hourly DMU plus reopening other lines...
 

krus_aragon

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Again, another place where you could double capacity just by extending trains (without needing new infrastructure)

True, but two extra through platforms at Cardiff Queen Street will help recovery from disruption significantly. Moreso with extra platforms at Central: it gives a chance for delayed services to leapfrog others to get back in place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I could see a Crossrail style system in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham and probably Cardiff (for the Valley Lines).

It would be very much mroe expensive than new city centre surface stations but would be far less disruptive to the city and be far more useful.

That sounds like the current Valley Lines network to me. While the mainline goes east-west, the routes through Queen Street link three northerly routes with a south-easterly route to the Vale of Glamorgan, and connects with the mainline as well.
 

yorksrob

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This is the problem with these threads, they start off with a good hypothesis (how would linking Bradford's two central stations affect things) and go off into discussing replacing the one a day DMU from Knottingley to Goole with an hourly DMU plus reopening other lines...

I don't think that wanting a better service between Knottingley and Goole is quite as fantastical as you imply. The route had a more frequent service in recent memory, and there's no reason to suggest that a modest improvement offering some sort of service throughout the day, wouldn't be reasonably well used.

For those who suggest that Metro is Leeds Centric, I wonder how many other PTE areas would instigate rail services such as Wakefield - Castleford and Huddersfield - Wakefield. I think Metro does a good job in this respect.
 

142094

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For those who suggest that Metro is Leeds Centric, I wonder how many other PTE areas would instigate rail services such as Wakefield - Castleford and Huddersfield - Wakefield. I think Metro does a good job in this respect.

That's a very good point, although shame that some of these services see little use outside of peak hours.
 

yorksrob

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That's a very good point, although shame that some of these services see little use outside of peak hours.

They generally have a smattering of passengers. I've seen quite a lot getting off the Knottingley train at Wakefield on a Saturday afternoon.

Personally, I'd find the Huddersfield service more useful if it connected with the stopper via Castleford at Wakefield, however I suspect this has something to do with the track layout at Wakefield Kirkgate.
 
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tbtc

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True, but two extra through platforms at Cardiff Queen Street will help recovery from disruption significantly. Moreso with extra platforms at Central: it gives a chance for delayed services to leapfrog others to get back in place

Fair point - what do you reckon the maximum length of trains that both stations could cope with?

I don't think that wanting a better service between Knottingley and Goole is quite as fantastical as you imply

Its a route with one train a day eastbound (and two trains a day westbound). If that makes it a candidate for electrification then every single inch of the railway can justify wiring...

Of course nobody can argue with the "if you improve services then more people will use them" argument, but there really needs to be some kind of "quality control" here.
 

yorksrob

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Its a route with one train a day eastbound (and two trains a day westbound). If that makes it a candidate for electrification then every single inch of the railway can justify wiring...

Of course nobody can argue with the "if you improve services then more people will use them" argument, but there really needs to be some kind of "quality control" here.

True - but you seemed to be arguing that even an improved DMU service on this line would be unjustifyable:

This is the problem with these threads, they start off with a good hypothesis (how would linking Bradford's two central stations affect things) and go off into discussing replacing the one a day DMU from Knottingley to Goole with an hourly DMU plus reopening other lines...
 

tbtc

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True - but you seemed to be arguing that even an improved DMU service on this line would be unjustifyable:

There's a huge jump from one train a day to an hourly service (through a pretty empty section of countryside). Plus the same poster was planning on opening a line from Bradford to Wakefield through Dewsbury (with a half hourly service). Plus...

...I just think that we should separate the fantasy wishlist stuff from the realistic suggestions.

Some threads are turning into Field Of Dreams with the "if you build it they will come" justification being used for anything/everything.
 

yorksrob

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There's a huge jump from one train a day to an hourly service (through a pretty empty section of countryside). Plus the same poster was planning on opening a line from Bradford to Wakefield through Dewsbury (with a half hourly service). Plus...

...I just think that we should separate the fantasy wishlist stuff from the realistic suggestions.

Some threads are turning into Field Of Dreams with the "if you build it they will come" justification being used for anything/everything.

Hourly services seem to be the standard, even in some quite sparsely populated areas (moreso then Knottingley - Goole). It might be better to work up to that from bi-hourly perhaps, but it certainly doesn't seem to me to be in the realms of fantasy.
 

tbtc

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Hourly services seem to be the standard, even in some quite sparsely populated areas (moreso then Knottingley - Goole). It might be better to work up to that from bi-hourly perhaps, but it certainly doesn't seem to me to be in the realms of fantasy.

Maybe it's just me, but replacing a daily DMU with an hourly EMU seemed a little far fetched, sorry
 
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