Class 365s to Scotrail

[scotraildriver]

There is now a massive push on the 385s. Drivers who were booked on a 365 course this week are now doing the 385 instead as it's introduction has gone very well. Expect more imminently and ignore the Scotsman and Alastair Dalton. He's utterly clueless.

 

[Highland37]

Jet2's new Boeing is actually a 40 year old design, that's been certified long ago, being fitted with seats also certified at least a few years back. It has controls identical to planes built in the last 10 years, with huge similarities to those built 40 years ago - the physics of the plane are identical to those built 40 years ago. In other words: the hard work is already done when that plane arrives on a Monday, and the pilots already know how to operate it.

I can't see where the 385s controls do not have "huge similarities to those built 40 years ago" or where physics has changed in that time. The poster makes the point well. Basically Boeing have delivered and Hitachi haven't (according to schedule). There are plenty of examples of delays to aircraft but let's not pretend that ordering, commissioning and using a train is much harder than the same for a plane. Indeed Airbus use to, and maybe still do (I don't know) aim for commonality over the A340 and A330 which reduced training time and cost.

 

[Bikeman78]

But quite a few QS to Alloa trains will be 6 coaches. That's why the platforms at B'riggs and lenzie were lengthened.

I was on the 1718 Queen St to Alloa on Tuesday. It was a pair of 158s and was absolutely rammed as far as Croy. A single 365 would not be popular.

 

[James James]

I can't see where the 385s controls do not have "huge similarities to those built 40 years ago" or where physics has changed in that time. The poster makes the point well. Basically Boeing have delivered and Hitachi haven't (according to schedule). There are plenty of examples of delays to aircraft but let's not pretend that ordering, commissioning and using a train is much harder than the same for a plane. Indeed Airbus use to, and maybe still do (I don't know) aim for commonality over the A340 and A330 which reduced training time and cost.

You are completely utterly missing the point in a very misleading way.

Boeing has already made tons of 737s. Another 737 delivery is identical to the last one that came out the factory. It doesn't need testing, it's ready to operate. The airline's pilots are already trained on the 737, they don't need new training (and 737s barely change, so you train a pilot once and they won't have to relearn a plane for a long long time.) A new 385 is not in large company. The 385 as a class. hasn't been tested yet, it hasn't been certified yet. Boeing's 737 initial testing will have taken years, whey does the 385 have to be certified instantly?

Yes, they got the timlines wrong. Comparing train certification to the delivery of an aircraft delivery... is ridiculous.

 

[jopsuk]

For the latest version of the 737, the MAX, the testing airframe was rolled out of the factory nearly two years before the first was delivered, with that test aircraft entering passenger service a little later.

For the 787, being all-new plane, they had to build a non-flying static test plane. The first five flying test aircraft were not for delivery to customers.

It's a long time since prototypes were used in the rail industry (not just UK). The first train off the production line typically does go into service.

 

[youngac]

ScotRail have said on twitter that the 365s will be fitted with WiFi within the next few weeks.

 

[Julia]

ScotRail have said on twitter that the 365s will be fitted with WiFi within the next few weeks.

If only they'd do the same to the GN ones...

 

[Skimble19]

If only they'd do the same to the GN ones...

The GN 365s are due to get Wi-Fi fitted by the end of the year.

 

[route101]

Noticed the 365s have seat reservation label holders , have they ever been used?

 

[Hadders]

Noticed the 365s have seat reservation label holders , have they ever been used?

No, not on South Eastern, WAGN, FCC or GTR. I seem to remember they ran an emergency service for a couple of days (possibly as far as Leeds) when Class 91s were withdrawn for safety checks but I've no idea if seat reservations were placed.

 

[alangla]

I notice on the 385 thread there's a mention of the 365s failing a lot, is this true & what sort of failures are they? Is it down to staff unfamiliarity, the units being knackered or has the famous hammering that stock gets on the E&G taken its toll already?

As an aside, do the 170s hold the record for the longest run of continuous service on the E&G? I reckon about 18 years, much longer than the 158, 47/7 or 27s

 

[Hadders]

I notice on the 385 thread there's a mention of the 365s failing a lot, is this true & what sort of failures are they? Is it down to staff unfamiliarity, the units being knackered or has the famous hammering that stock gets on the E&G taken its toll already?

As an aside, do the 170s hold the record for the longest run of continuous service on the E&G? I reckon about 18 years, much longer than the 158, 47/7 or 27s

I suspect it's unfamiliarity. The 365s were far more intensively worked when they were on Great Northern.

 

[scotraildriver]

Lots of little faults. 5 out of service today each with an unrelated issue.

PA not working
Deflated airbag
Loss of line light
Loss of cab cooling
Sanders not working.

4v8 on the E & G today isn't going to be pretty.

 

[Bikeman78]

Lots of little faults. 5 out of service today each with an unrelated issue.

PA not working
Deflated airbag
Loss of line light
Loss of cab cooling
Sanders not working.

4v8 on the E & G today isn't going to be pretty.

Out of curiosity, is the cab cooling fault at one end or both ends? Hornsey sometimes had units with defective cabs for weeks or months. They simply put a multi only restriction on them and made sure that cab was coupled.

 

[Highlandspring]

Four of them are on multi-only restrictions at the moment.

 

[alangla]

Given the schedules on the E&G, I imagine running units round each other would probably involve a trip to Eastfield or Millerhill and a cancelled circuit - that's assuming the pair hasn't got a cab boxed in already.
Thanks for the replies all!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Out of curiosity, is the cab cooling fault at one end or both ends? Hornsey sometimes had units with defective cabs for weeks or months. They simply put a multi only restriction on them and made sure that cab was coupled.

Did they hell... We used to fault them all the sodding time and the fitters would remark back in the fault book with rubbish like "It's a 365!".

The cab cooling was shocking. Best thing in the heat was to roll the windows down and hope for the best.

 

[bramling]

Did they hell... We used to fault them all the sodding time and the fitters would remark back in the fault book with rubbish like "It's a 365!".

The cab cooling was shocking. Best thing in the heat was to roll the windows down and hope for the best.

To be fair the units were worked extremely intensively on GN, not helped by the fleet being a unit down for various periods due to level crossing accidents on the Kings Lynn route. Nonetheless reliability on GN was pretty good all things considered.

 

[Bikeman78]

Did they hell... We used to fault them all the sodding time and the fitters would remark back in the fault book with rubbish like "It's a 365!".

The cab cooling was shocking. Best thing in the heat was to roll the windows down and hope for the best.

Sorry, I meant for serious faults. If they had taken a 365 out of service every time the cab air con packed up then the result would be more 317s/321s out all day which don't even have cab air con. Same in Cardiff. Driver fails a 158 because cab air con doesn't work so it gets replaced by a 150. So they're still in a hot cab and now they're going slower as well!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

To be fair the units were worked extremely intensively on GN, not helped by the fleet being a unit down for various periods due to level crossing accidents on the Kings Lynn route. Nonetheless reliability on GN was pretty good all things considered.

Reliability was alright, but there was too much petty stuff. No water in the wash bottles to get rid of dead flies, no cab cooling. Absolutely rubbish.

Sorry, I meant for serious faults. If they had taken a 365 out of service every time the cab air con packed up then the result would be more 317s/321s out all day which don't even have cab air con. Same in Cardiff. Driver fails a 158 because cab air con doesn't work so it gets replaced by a 150. So they're still in a hot cab and now they're going slower as well!

321s had a bloody excellent cab cooling system - and we loved it!

 

[bramling]

Reliability was alright, but there was too much petty stuff. No water in the wash bottles to get rid of dead flies, no cab cooling. Absolutely rubbish.

This does seem to tie in with them being very intensively worked. Similar niggles could be observed in the passenger accommodation - defective inter-car doors being a frequent one. The fleet really was working to the max until about a year ago, more and more 8-car off-peak working with every new timetable reducing the number of units returning to Hornsey during the day, with most overnight stabling being in remote yards rather than Hornsey.

It's early days yet, and of course they're now doing more than planned with weekend working, but it will be interesting to see if this all improves now the fleet isn't working so hard. Thusfar it's evident the interiors are being kept noticeably smarter.

 

[Bikeman78]

321s had a bloody excellent cab cooling system - and we loved it!

I stand corrected, didn't know that. What about the 317s? Do they have any form of cab cooling?

 

[Bikeman78]

This does seem to tie in with them being very intensively worked. Similar niggles could be observed in the passenger accommodation - defective inter-car doors being a frequent one. The fleet really was working to the max until about a year ago, more and more 8-car off-peak working with every new timetable reducing the number of units returning to Hornsey during the day, with most overnight stabling being in remote yards rather than Hornsey.

It's early days yet, and of course they're now doing more than planned with weekend working, but it will be interesting to see if this all improves now the fleet isn't working so hard. Thusfar it's evident the interiors are being kept noticeably smarter.

The GN main line fleet required 60 out of 65 units in the peaks; 10 diagrams for 12 317s, 12 diagrams for 13 321s and 38 diagrams for 40 365s. If they were short of 365s then the spare pair of 317s would step in, or a 317/365 would cover the 321 diagram that worked solo and then a pair of 321s covered the 365s. There were two pairs of diagrams that didn't split or attach all day, one started at Hornsey and finished at Peterborough and the other pair did the opposite. From mid 2016 onwards, one or the other was covered by 317/321s almost every day. A 365 was out of traffic with collision damage and another was at Ilford at any given time. Then they had more problems when the new PIS was installed. My understanding is that modified units could not work with unmodified units.

 

[Mingulay]

I notice on the 385 thread there's a mention of the 365s failing a lot, is this true & what sort of failures are they? Is it down to staff unfamiliarity, the units being knackered or has the famous hammering that stock gets on the E&G taken its toll already?

As an aside, do the 170s hold the record for the longest run of continuous service on the E&G? I reckon about 18 years, much longer than the 158, 47/7 or 27s

Can I ask. What is it about the Edinburgh Glasgow service that is so hard on a train? Why is it more demanding than Glasgow Ayr or a similar duration frequent stop service ?

 

[Sirius]

I’d guess that it’s a longer journey at higher speeds, plus the route doesn’t go to an evening timetable until later (compared with Ayr).

Yes the journey is only six miles longer, but every hour for thirteen/eighteen hours per day, seven days per week at higher average speeds must take it’s toll eventually. Granted not all units will be in service at all times but E&G will usually be 6/7/8 carriages. I don’t know if that applies to all lines or whether there’s opportunities to shorten after the morning peak is over on some routes and strengthen in the evening peak again?

 

[Hadders]

Can I ask. What is it about the Edinburgh Glasgow service that is so hard on a train? Why is it more demanding than Glasgow Ayr or a similar duration frequent stop service ?

I doubt Edinburgh - Glasgow is harder on a train than, for example Kings Cross - Peterborough.....

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I stand corrected, didn't know that. What about the 317s? Do they have any form of cab cooling?

Memory test...

313s had a very effective retro-fitted cab cooling system. In the summer the best thing was to close the tiny door into the cab (usually left propped open) and it was beautiful!

317s must have been bad as I remember winding the windows down; 321s had a smashing cab cooling system which again was very effective in summer but the ‘greenhouse’ effect of the south-facing cabs, especially on the old 07:35 stopping Peterborough, was shocking. Leave the windows down on the stops at the Cross then shut them at Posh and put the coolers on for the way south. 321s were just a pleasure to drive anyway.

365 cab cooling was crap. I wouldn’t even turn it on. I’d roll the windows down and pray.

387s were shocking to drive and I despised them but the air con was definitely the best.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The GN main line fleet required 60 out of 65 units in the peaks; 10 diagrams for 12 317s, 12 diagrams for 13 321s and 38 diagrams for 40 365s. If they were short of 365s then the spare pair of 317s would step in, or a 317/365 would cover the 321 diagram that worked solo and then a pair of 321s covered the 365s. There were two pairs of diagrams that didn't split or attach all day, one started at Hornsey and finished at Peterborough and the other pair did the opposite. From mid 2016 onwards, one or the other was covered by 317/321s almost every day. A 365 was out of traffic with collision damage and another was at Ilford at any given time. Then they had more problems when the new PIS was installed. My understanding is that modified units could not work with unmodified units.

And many happy times driving the 10:14 Cambridge flyer before they went through to Ely which berthed at Cambridge and came back as the 15:15 (?) for the 16:22.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is about Class 365s to Scotrail.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please post it in another thread (create a new one, with an appropriately descriptive title, if there isn't one already)

 

[Southsider]

Given the lack of comment on this thread of late, is it fair to assume that these units, though not in pristine condition, are doing what is required of them?