Class 458/5

[Peter Mugridge]

South West Trains could ask London Midland for a class 153 then that could run the Lymington shuttle and that frees up the 158 which currently runs it.

I suspect a new microfleet like that would be even more problematic than the previous suggestions of using a 456 on that branch...

 

[Top Cat]

If only it were that simple to get 442's back onto the SWT network. For a start, given the length of time it has been since drivers and guards last worked these units, there would have to be full training for all the staff involved. It is not just a case of getting some units to Waterloo, the crew turning up and the train departing. Additionally, there would be a number of regulatory hoops to jump through as SWT may not have a current safety validation to operate these units. Robbies, I am afraid that you are looking at it far too simply - trains are not like cars, where if you have a valid licence, you can drive away irrespective of whether or not you have any experience of that particular make/model.

 

[infobleep]

Out of interest. How long would it take to get some 442s certified; staff trained and in service? Would it be as long as it's going to take to get the additional units? If so there is no point in getting them.

During the day roughly between 10am a and 3pm I often don't see trains full of people standing, so I doubt more carriages are needed then. It is only during the rush hour.

Their is a strong argument to say the units should have been ordered sooner, so that people don't have to stand all the way to Southampton Airport Parkway in the evening but of those they have I'm sure they are certainly not leaving working units gathering dust. They would be late for exams if they didn't run. The Southampton Airport Parkway anecdote was from one of SWT's management who said it wasn't good enough that people were standing all the way to Southampton Airport Parkway.

Of course I do like to remind people now and again that a ticket does not include a seat. That's just some good will that's existed for many years in the rail industry!

Perhaps we should go back to open carriages, ala mid 1800s. They would be cheap to build! All those that are desperate to get home as quickly and cheaply as possible could travel in them.

 

[Keith Jarrett]

The unit rotates. It'll be any one of the fleet bar 158885. 881 today

Any clues why 158885 does not go on hire to FGW? Reason for asking is it is the only SWT unit that I need for haulage and I've spent numerous days trying to get it.

 

[swt455]

Sorry to put in a bit of a random post amongst the discussion... But does anyone know what the weekend work is like for the 458/5 fleet?

I haven't been out on the Windsor lines for a few weekends, until today. I noticed a real mixture on the Readings, Windsors and Weybridges: 8.455s, 8.450s, 5.458/5s, 10.458/5s, 4.458/0, 8.458/0s with no immediately obvious pattern?

I have seen various suggestions as to SX diagrams for 458/5s, but have not heard anything regarding SO / SU working. I am assuming that it has got to, or at least is fast getting to, the point where they don't have enough alternative stock to cover the weekend service. But does anyone know if there is any particular pattern as to what is worked by what fleets on the Windsor side at weekends at the moment, regarding 458/5s in particular?

Thanks

 

[158722]

Any clues why 158885 does not go on hire to FGW? Reason for asking is it is the only SWT unit that I need for haulage and I've spent numerous days trying to get it.

885 is fitted with a different gearbox arrangement, similar to a 172? I'm sure someone more technically minded will confirm exactly what.

 

[RobShipway]

Out of interest. How long would it take to get some 442s certified; staff trained and in service? Would it be as long as it's going to take to get the additional units? If so there is no point in getting them.

During the day roughly between 10am a and 3pm I often don't see trains full of people standing, so I doubt more carriages are needed then. It is only during the rush hour.

Their is a strong argument to say the units should have been ordered sooner, so that people don't have to stand all the way to Southampton Airport Parkway in the evening but of those they have I'm sure they are certainly not leaving working units gathering dust. They would be late for exams if they didn't run. The Southampton Airport Parkway anecdote was from one of SWT's management who said it wasn't good enough that people were standing all the way to Southampton Airport Parkway.

Of course I do like to remind people now and again that a ticket does not include a seat. That's just some good will that's existed for many years in the rail industry!

Perhaps we should go back to open carriages, ala mid 1800s. They would be cheap to build! All those that are desperate to get home as quickly and cheaply as possible could travel in them.

It is not only during the rush hour that the trains are full. As i have explained previously in this thread I was on a 4 car class 458 from Reading to Waterloo that had started at 9:15am from reading i joined it at Martins Heron at 9:35am and it was about half full and the train had got full by the time that it reached Egham.

I presuming for this 4 car class 458 to have got to Reading it would have done a Waterloo - Reading service through the rush hour period so that it could do the 9:15am service back to Waterloo?

For a service to be packed by the time it reaches Egham is totally unusual, however when I have caught the same service before it has been an eight coach train and has not usually got full until it has reached Richmond. Hence why I say that SWT need to act and get more stock in from outside of their TOC where possible. Even if it is hiring two class 73's with 6 Mk3's between them for use on the route.

 

[hassaanhc]

Sorry to put in a bit of a random post amongst the discussion... But does anyone know what the weekend work is like for the 458/5 fleet?

I haven't been out on the Windsor lines for a few weekends, until today. I noticed a real mixture on the Readings, Windsors and Weybridges: 8.455s, 8.450s, 5.458/5s, 10.458/5s, 4.458/0, 8.458/0s with no immediately obvious pattern?

I have seen various suggestions as to SX diagrams for 458/5s, but have not heard anything regarding SO / SU working. I am assuming that it has got to, or at least is fast getting to, the point where they don't have enough alternative stock to cover the weekend service. But does anyone know if there is any particular pattern as to what is worked by what fleets on the Windsor side at weekends at the moment, regarding 458/5s in particular?

Thanks

There was an event at Twickenham today, hence the random allocations. Both platforms at Chertsey are only 4 cars long and one at Virginia Water is 5 cars, so you can't have 8.455s go on Weybridge services as SDO fitted units are required. This means the 8.450s usually on Windsors get used on Weybridge and their 4.455s get doubled up for Windsor services instead. 455s can also end up on Reading to Twickenham extras as well as being used for all Waterloo to Twickenham extras.

Usually on Saturdays it is mostly 4.455s for Weybridge and Hounslow , while 8.450 are on Windsor. However I have seen 10.458/5 on a Saturday Weybridge service when the rest were 455s. Reading I have no idea.

 

[Helvellyn]

I've heard of drivers been taken off track but not trains lazing about for a month.

Send it to Occy Health - it may get redeployed as a waiting room.

 

[hassaanhc]

I thought TEW was right for a minute and the SWT top brass were running trains down the Reading short formed,deliberately.I had spied an 8 Car 458 in either 47 or 48 road at Clapped out yard for a few hours,bumped into a guard who had just worked a Reading and wasn't very happy because it had been a four car he had worked down there in the rush hour time.After passing him I worked my train to Weybridge stopping off at Clapham Jn and the 458 which I had spied there earlier was gone.So much for my conspiracy theory.

I noticed that 458015 still has hardly turned a wheel in a month though.

I worked 458533 and my old mate 458536 together yesterday.No probs,long may the good run continue.

I think you may have been lucky as the doors seem to be playing up :P. Yesterday there was a Windsor 10 car with two coaches locked out of use, as well as 458532 on Hounslows with one coach out of use. Meanwhile 458502 still had residue from the out of use stickers, and on Tuesday 458532 again had a door locked out of use (with alighting passengers taking ages to notice, which I found amusing ).

 

[TEW]

Usually on Saturdays it is mostly 4.455s for Weybridge and Hounslow , while 8.450 are on Windsor. However I have seen 10.458/5 on a Saturday Weybridge service when the rest were 455s. Reading I have no idea.

I believe there's a 10-car 458/5 diagram on Weekends now because of the set stabled at Woking. The first Woking-Waterloo via Hounslow on a Saturday morning and the last one back on a Sunday morning are a 10-car 458/5 because of the way they interwork with Friday and Monday diagrams.

 

[5920]

I know you're trying hard but 442's would not be the answer.
Politically it wouldn't happen. Those drivers and guards would all have to be retrained (after 6 months all competencies lapse). 8015 won't go up until it can be overhauled.

SWT don't have loco hauled stock nor a mainline capable locomotive and to get one on the safety case and staff trained would take longer than finishing the 5 car project.

There can be so much political and contractual factors. Just believe me when it isn't for the want of trying not is it fun short forming.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

885 is fitted with a different gearbox arrangement, similar to a 172? I'm sure someone more technically minded will confirm exactly what.

It is a 172 type ZF mechanical transmission as opposed to the standard Voith hydraulic transmission. I seem to stumble upon it a lot heading the 1521 Salisbury to Waterloo......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is not only during the rush hour that the trains are full. As i have explained previously in this thread I was on a 4 car class 458 from Reading to Waterloo that had started at 9:15am from reading i joined it at Martins Heron at 9:35am and it was about half full and the train had got full by the time that it reached Egham.

I presuming for this 4 car class 458 to have got to Reading it would have done a Waterloo - Reading service through the rush hour period so that it could do the 9:15am service back to Waterloo?

For a service to be packed by the time it reaches Egham is totally unusual, however when I have caught the same service before it has been an eight coach train and has not usually got full until it has reached Richmond. Hence why I say that SWT need to act and get more stock in from outside of their TOC where possible. Even if it is hiring two class 73's with 6 Mk3's between them for use on the route.

There are 13 workable 458/0s and all diagrams ask for pairs

Someone is going to lose out!!!

 

[Juniper Driver]

I think you may have been lucky as the doors seem to be playing up :P. Yesterday there was a Windsor 10 car with two coaches locked out of use, as well as 458532 on Hounslows with one coach out of use. Meanwhile 458502 still had residue from the out of use stickers, and on Tuesday 458532 again had a door locked out of use (with alighting passengers taking ages to notice, which I found amusing ).

I was,when I split the train on Friday a load of alarms went off on the TMS for faults on the fifth coach of the split train.I was in the middle splitting it and the filth coach would be at the country end.All sorts of faults were coming up which I had never seem before.Plus a driver was giving me tip on how to split the units and what to do,which was a bit of a distraction.I have split these a few times and coupled even more.This was on plat 15.I asked the guard to do the middle doors his side while I did the middle doors on the other unit.He was a bit unhappy about this I noticed but I didn't know why.After I had done this I went up the other end to check with the driver who was taking it out and bumped into the guard again who was labeling the doors on the 5th coach OOU.Don't know what was wrong with it but when I talked to the driver the faults have gone.Oh I did apologise to the guard.If I had known of the problems he had I would have done the doors myself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If only it were that simple to get 442's back onto the SWT network. For a start, given the length of time it has been since drivers and guards last worked these units, there would have to be full training for all the staff involved. It is not just a case of getting some units to Waterloo, the crew turning up and the train departing. Additionally, there would be a number of regulatory hoops to jump through as SWT may not have a current safety validation to operate these units. Robbies, I am afraid that you are looking at it far too simply - trains are not like cars, where if you have a valid licence, you can drive away irrespective of whether or not you have any experience of that particular make/model.

Funny you say that,they are still training drivers up on the 459's at my depot.I learnt them on a 1 day conversion on 23 April 2014 but if you didn't know the 458's originally it's a weeks training which involves taking drivers off their running turns which they can barely afford to do at the moment.Plus they have other training courses like 159's for drivers promoted to my link as they are short of these also.I was on 458530 and 458533 yesterday.I knew 442's and I'd be quite confident on these but they may have made some alterations for all I know.

 

[456]

What part of 'there is no spare 159' did you miss?

sorry I misread

 

[ARoo21]

458 015 still parked at Clapham. 458 012 was also parked at Wimbledon Sidings.

 

[Juniper Driver]

458 015 still parked at Clapham. 458 012 was also parked at Wimbledon Sidings.

I know,I said hello yesterday @ about 2130 when I parked the 159 on the CET road @ Clapham.

 

[infobleep]

It is not only during the rush hour that the trains are full. As i have explained previously in this thread I was on a 4 car class 458 from Reading to Waterloo that had started at 9:15am from reading i joined it at Martins Heron at 9:35am and it was about half full and the train had got full by the time that it reached Egham.

I presuming for this 4 car class 458 to have got to Reading it would have done a Waterloo - Reading service through the rush hour period so that it could do the 9:15am service back to Waterloo?

For a service to be packed by the time it reaches Egham is totally unusual, however when I have caught the same service before it has been an eight coach train and has not usually got full until it has reached Richmond. Hence why I say that SWT need to act and get more stock in from outside of their TOC where possible. Even if it is hiring two class 73's with 6 Mk3's between them for use on the route.

Correct about it not only being rush hour. That's why I said 10am to 3pm.

 

[TEW]

Spotted 458511 in Clapham Yard today. I'm guessing it can't be far off entering service now as units only seem to get away from Wimbledon Park when they're commissioned.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Does anyone know if this unit went up to Doncaster? Was reported at Wimbledon with barriers a few days ago.

 

[Bigfoot]

458/5 10 car on sheppies today.

 

[Goldfish62]

Spotted 458511 in Clapham Yard today. I'm guessing it can't be far off entering service now as units only seem to get away from Wimbledon Park when they're commissioned.

In service today.

 

[59CosG95]

This may be old hat to some of you, but does anyone know of the current formations of the 458/5s? i.e. 458501 is 67601-74431-74441-74001-74101-67701.

 

[user15681]

458501 - 67701, 74101, 74001, 74431, 67601
458502 - 67702, 74102, 74002, 74421, 67602
458503 - 67703, 74103, 74003, 74441, 67603
458504 - 67704, 74104, 74004, 74451, 67604
458505 - 67705, 74105, 74005, 74425, 67605
458510 - 67710, 74110, 74010, 74405, 67610
458511 - 67711, 74111, 74011, 74435, 67611
458520 - 67720, 74120, 74020, 74401, 67620
458524 - 67724, 74124, 74024, 74402, 67624
458525 - 67725, 74125, 74025, 74422, 67625
458530 - 67730, 74130, 74030, 74411, 67630
458531 - 67913, 74418, 74446, 74458, 67912
458532 - 67904, 74417, 74447, 74457, 67905
458533 - 67917, 74413, 74443, 74453, 67916
458534 - 67914, 74414, 74444, 74454, 67918
458535 - 67915, 74415, 74445, 74455, 67911
458536 - 67906, 74416, 74448, 74456, 67902

That should be the current formations, barring any typos...

 

[antharro]

Temple, thanks for posting this.

Can anyone provide a list of the original formations of both 458/0s and 460s please?

 

[WWTownEnth]

458501 Out of service - fire damaged
458502 In service
458503 In service
458504 In service
458505 In service 21/04/15
458509 Doncaster?
458510 In service 28/04/15
458511 in service 04/05/15
458515 Clapham Yard - awaiting move to Doncaster
458518 Doncaster 26/03/15
458520 In service
458524 Wimbledon testing 14/04/15
458525 Wimbledon testing 24/04/15
458526 Doncaster 06/04/15
458527 Doncaster
458530 In service
458531 In service
458532 In service
458533 In service
458534 In service
458535 In service
458536 In service

 

[RobShipway]

Temple, thanks for posting this.

Can anyone provide a list of the original formations of both 458/0s and 460s please?

Original Class 460 numbers can be found within http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_460.

 

[cjohnson]

458/5 10 car on sheppies today.

Passengers for Clapham Jct were being advised to only travel in the front 5 coaches - was the SDO playing up?

 

[hassaanhc]

Passengers for Clapham Jct were being advised to only travel in the front 5 coaches - was the SDO playing up?

If this was at stations, that system has been set to assume that it a 10 car train on the mainline side is a 444+444, and it doesn't know what stock will be working it. Likewise short platform announcements for a 9 car are done for a 159+159+159 instead of a 444+450.
If SDO system is not working at all then only the front 4 will open, in case it was at Chertsey which only fits 4. This system works by detecting how many coaches have passed the beacon at the tail end of the platform.

 

[swt_passenger]

Temple, thanks for posting this.

Can anyone provide a list of the original formations of both 458/0s and 460s please?

458501-530 are all as built with the addition of the single 744xx car from a 460, so the partial list in post #2393 above by Temple allows you to work them out:

458001 - 67701, 74101, 74001, 67601
through to
458030 - 67730, 74130, 74030, 67630

The additional 744xx cars are basically in random order, as pre-conversion they come from the full range of positions/types within the donor 460s..

 

[wokspotter]

458524+458525 are out testing today between Staines and Reading.