Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[387star]

Same here, but they're on the way...

Interesting to see where the 458s go

Obviously given they are some of the oldest post privatisation stock they are more comfortable

Many things are worsening as the years pass!

 

[ComUtoR]

Does anyone have a picture of the cab ? (cheers in advance if so)

 

[43096]

I don’t think you’ve got it that bad really when you consider the people of Maidenhead etc are also being downgraded to Aventras but from the rather nice 387s with tables and armrests

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because one service gets a downgrade doesn’t mean it’s OK to do likewise everywhere. The continual drip drip drip of decreased service and comfort makes the railway less and less attractive and the car ever more the go to choice.

 

[TEW]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, it's crazy for this to become a Union issue when the trains are on the verge of introduction.

The cab design has been an issue for a while, it's probably about a year since ASLEF first raised issues with the design. I understood that it had been redesigned to address ASLEF's concerns, but it sounds like there may have been further developments since. It's not just that the cab was cramped, but also had a very poor layout of the controls.

 

[Goldfish62]

Does anyone know how many toilets the 701s will have? To my mind it should be 4 in the 10 car units and 2 in the five car units, but I bet it's 2 and 1.

 

[Goldfish62]

The cab design has been an issue for a while, it's probably about a year since ASLEF first raised issues with the design. I understood that it had been redesigned to address ASLEF's concerns, but it sounds like there may have been further developments since. It's not just that the cab was cramped, but also had a very poor layout of the controls.

It'll be even worse in the WMT ones then, because they've got the same basic cab design with a gangway grafted on

 

[theking]

Post 337 to 344 discusses the cab points good view if you haven't seen it.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because one service gets a downgrade doesn’t mean it’s OK to do likewise everywhere. The continual drip drip drip of decreased service and comfort makes the railway less and less attractive and the car ever more the go to choice.

The Aventras are a big upgrade from the 165/166s that Maidenhead commuters had to put up with until very recently.

 

[387star]

Why aren't they getting the same seats as greater anglia given the backlash to ironing board seats?

Or will they be the 'improved ' version as seen in scotrail and northern ?

 

[cactustwirly]

The Aventras are a big upgrade from the 165/166s that Maidenhead commuters had to put up with until very recently.

Um no they're not!
The 165s atleast had more seats, proper luggage space, and toilets!

 

[Goldfish62]

Why aren't they getting the same seats as greater anglia given the backlash to ironing board seats?

Or will they be the 'improved ' version as seen in scotrail and northern ?

The order was placed very quickly upon winning the franchise, with an equally quick delivery schedule so I imagine the design was locked down early with no prospect of change. Ironing boards for us!

 

[387star]

The order was placed very quickly upon winning the franchise, with an equally quick delivery schedule so I imagine the design was locked down early with no prospect of change. Ironing boards for us!

Would Greater Anglia Aventras be more expensive then ?
Seems weird they could specify better seats than everyone else

 

[387star]

GTR has the highest number of ironing board mark 1s by far with Great Northern and Gatwick express 387s Thameslink 700s and 377/6 377/7 all fitted not to mention 717s. The 377/6 were among the first in the country to get them?

GWR and C2C 387s

Whilst not the present style ironing boards the centre coaches of most 377s and throughout in 375/9s plus GTR 313 and 455s have very thin seating which is pretty uncomfortable if less bolt upright... 172s have these too

Southeastern 376a have an early form of ironing boards I've not tried



C2C has the small 387 fleet too

Will LNWR Aventras have them ?

 

[Goldfish62]

Would Greater Anglia Aventras be more expensive then ?
Seems weird they could specify better seats than everyone else

GA conducted a lengthy consultation with stakeholders and passengers on the interior design. SWR didn't..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will LNWR Aventras have them ?

No. I believe the 3+2 version will have, other than First Class[1], the same interior as the GA units including the same seats other than the highlighting on the seat fabric being green instead of red. The 2+2 version (of which renderings have been issued) have the same seats but wider and with armrests. So no ironing boards for us on the south WCML!

[1] Which logically might be the 2+2 bit at the cab ends.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would Greater Anglia Aventras be more expensive then ?
Seems weird they could specify better seats than everyone else

I believe the GA and LNR seat is more expensive, yes.

 

[Ethano92]

Southeastern 376a have an early form of ironing boards I've not tried

They are more comfortable than the 700s (and what the 701s will have) seats because theres generous spacing between the seats and between the window seat and the wall. They're also softer I find. They do look a bit odd but I would've preferred those.

Either way, at least services out of Waterloo aren't operated by TFL (yet) because longitudinal seating on aventuras really is another level of discomfort. They're worse than 700s in terms of you can't even call the seats 'firm', they're simply granite that TFL put a nice looking pattern over, but I guess they do have some spacing because of armrests so it becomes a matter of preference.

Shame SWR really aren't bothered about making things better for their passengers like Greater Anglia SEEM to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are more comfortable than the 700s (and what the 701s will have) seats because theres generous spacing between the seats and between the window seat and the wall. They're also softer I find. They do look a bit odd but I would've preferred those.

I quite like the ones in the GWR and Southern Electrostars - with armrests and good spacing they are better than a certain other type of seat. Indeed, overall, the GWR Electrostar interior is markedly better than the Class 800 interior - what's that, a suburban EMU better than an allegedly InterCity train?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They are more comfortable than the 700s (and what the 701s will have) seats because theres generous spacing between the seats and between the window seat and the wall. They're also softer I find. They do look a bit odd but I would've preferred those.

Either way, at least services out of Waterloo aren't operated by TFL (yet) because longitudinal seating on aventuras really is another level of discomfort. They're worse than 700s in terms of you can't even call the seats 'firm', they're simply granite that TFL put a nice looking pattern over, but I guess they do have some spacing because of armrests so it becomes a matter of preference.

Shame SWR really aren't bothered about making things better for their passengers like Greater Anglia SEEM to be.

Definitely a matter of opinion. Personally I find classic Fainsa “ironing boards” such as on 387/700 far more comfortable than the awful 376s, especially due to that freakish hard plastic bit in the head bit on the 376 seats.

 

[Ethano92]

I quite like the ones in the GWR and Southern Electrostars - with armrests and good spacing they are better than a certain other type of seat. Indeed, overall, the GWR Electrostar interior is markedly better than the Class 800 interior - what's that, a suburban EMU better than an allegedly InterCity train?

Agreed. I really do like GWRs electorstars. I think the interior colour scheme is one of my if not my favourite train interior scheme. When Fainsa's are spaced out with armrests with adequate legroom too, you don't really notice the fact that they're firm since they're still comfortable. Carpet in a train is also nice. Doesn't have to be a seemingly relatively thick carpet that SWR have put in their refurbished Desiros but one like on southerns older electrostars (very thin, and not even that clean) just help stop the train from feeling bare, scarce and clinical imo

 

[samuelmorris]

They are more comfortable than the 700s (and what the 701s will have) seats because theres generous spacing between the seats and between the window seat and the wall. They're also softer I find. They do look a bit odd but I would've preferred those.

Either way, at least services out of Waterloo aren't operated by TFL (yet) because longitudinal seating on aventuras really is another level of discomfort. They're worse than 700s in terms of you can't even call the seats 'firm', they're simply granite that TFL put a nice looking pattern over, but I guess they do have some spacing because of armrests so it becomes a matter of preference.

Shame SWR really aren't bothered about making things better for their passengers like Greater Anglia SEEM to be.

Recently making numerous trips from a 345 then on a 700 changing at Farringdon, it does change your perspective. If I stand on the tube and don't have the softer S7/S8 seats as a point of reference, the seating on the 700 does genuinely feel soft versus that on the 345. Even the transverse seats.

I commuted from Upminster to Fenchurch Street daily for a couple of months on the 387/3 at c2c before they recast the diagrams for them away from the services I regularly used. I really enjoyed using them, assuming I got a seat. The lack of capacity was certainly noticed vs a 12-car 357, but when they ran 12-cars on what used to be an 8-car 357, it was very civilised. With the more confined interior, it didn't really feel claustrophobic, but 'cosy' is probably how I'd describe it, sat at my table with a plug socket and a carpeted floor. Despite the ironing board's reputation, for a 25 minute journey they were more than acceptable, the stock was frankly overkill.

Ironing board seats aren't necessarily that bad, it depends how they are implemented. If the seating on 701s is good enough to do the full run from Waterloo down to Shepperton with only a small minority of passengers experiencing any major discomfort, it'll be good enough. It just comes down to whether they go 387-style, or 700-style with it. Those concept renders suggest more likely the latter, so we shall see.

 

[Non Multi]

... Either way, at least services out of Waterloo aren't operated by TFL (yet) because longitudinal seating on aventuras really is another level of discomfort. They're worse than 700s in terms of you can't even call the seats 'firm', they're simply granite that TFL put a nice looking pattern over, but I guess they do have some spacing because of armrests so it becomes a matter of preference...

My next trip to IKEA involves buying a seat pad. This is in readiness for its use on the 345's coming my way in December.

 

[43096]

GA conducted a lengthy consultation with stakeholders and passengers on the interior design. SWR didn't..

It’s not really surprising: WorstGroup have never given an f-in-circle about their customers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. I really do like GWRs electorstars. I think the interior colour scheme is one of my if not my favourite train interior scheme. When Fainsa's are spaced out with armrests with adequate legroom too, you don't really notice the fact that they're firm since they're still comfortable. Carpet in a train is also nice. Doesn't have to be a seemingly relatively thick carpet that SWR have put in their refurbished Desiros but one like on southerns older electrostars (very thin, and not even that clean) just help stop the train from feeling bare, scarce and clinical imo

Speckled lino just makes a train look like a hospital. Chiltern's blue and red is even worse. You can make a train look nice with lino - but it has to be wood-effect.

 

[Ethano92]

I've just been reading the Stakeholder Annual report 2018/19 and it states that these units will have underfloor heating which I thought was only on the 720s for Greater Anglia. This might've already been recognised, apologies if it has. Although it's the Desiro City range of trains that has the problem with intrusive heating, at least it can be confirmed there won't be any intrusive heating on these units which is helpful since the seats will no doubt be cramped against the wall.

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s not really surprising: WorstGroup have never given an f-in-circle about their customers.

That's probably a bit generalised...

 

[Goldfish62]

I've just been reading the Stakeholder Annual report 2018/19 and it states that these units will have underfloor heating which I thought was only on the 720s for Greater Anglia. This might've already been recognised, apologies if it has. Although it's the Desiro City range of trains that has the problem with intrusive heating, at least it can be confirmed there won't be any intrusive heating on these units which is helpful since the seats will no doubt be cramped against the wall.

Yes, indications are that the seats will be crammed against the side walls, dictated by the DfT's stipulation of a minimum gangway width.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've just been reading the Stakeholder Annual report 2018/19 and it states that these units will have underfloor heating which I thought was only on the 720s for Greater Anglia. This might've already been recognised, apologies if it has. Although it's the Desiro City range of trains that has the problem with intrusive heating, at least it can be confirmed there won't be any intrusive heating on these units which is helpful since the seats will no doubt be cramped against the wall.

I didn’t think Desiro City was significantly different to earlier Desiros. 350, 450, 444 etc all have skirting heaters of similar size don’t they?

 

[samuelmorris]

They did but they're far less intrusive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn’t think Desiro City was significantly different to earlier Desiros. 350, 450, 444 etc all have skirting heaters of similar size don’t they?

Indeed, and I quite like using it as a footrest (unlike Bombardier products where it irritatingly has a curved top so I can't). It's a typical German feature, most DB rolling stock has a large, square radiator in that position.