• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Complex Penalty Fare

Status
Not open for further replies.

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,869
Location
Yorkshire
Of course TOCs may wish to accept them on-board too, but the RTV itself omits to mention this.
If the first opportunity to buy is on board, then it would be sensible of the TOC to accept them on-board, rather than wait until the passenger has reached his/her destination, would it not? Of course on DOO trains there generally won't be an opportunity to pay on the train.

Going back to the way RJ has been treated, it really does not surprise me at all.

I called EMT to establish if they were aware of, and adhered to, various conditions, regulations and industry policies. And guess what? They didn't. Trying to discuss that with them was futile. But there's nothing I can do, is there? We don't have an effective Regulator, or a knowledgeable and truly independent passenger watchdog either.

I do not think EMT will change. What incentive is there? As far as I can tell, they can treat customers in this way with impunity. It may well be a franchise commitment - in theory - to adhere to the Conditions, but I see no evidence this is enforced. So they will not bother ensuring staff are properly trained in the correct procedures and they will not ensure staff have adequate knowledge, with regards fares & ticketing matters.

If anyone is reading this who is in a position to do something and would like to prove that the industry can do something about it, please do contact me, I'd love to hear from you!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
Do they have to accept Traveller's Cheques? I ask because I have been looking at various sources and cannot see where it states that Traveller's Cheques must be accepted.

The National Rail website contains this information - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/payment_methods.html

There is a statement at the top of the page stating that the following payment methods are categorically accepted at ticket offices and on train if there are no facilities available beforehand. Traveller's Cheques are in that list. My training material states that all approved methods of payment listed in the payment section are to be accepted on train. There is a list of around 12 methods of payment, which include Traveller's Cheques and all of those listed under that NRE link.

There are no rules governing the situation where a passenger boarding at a station with sufficient retail facilities already holds a valid ticket, with a member of staff who wants them to buy another one because they don't know whether or not the ticket is valid. I suspect it would be a massive embarrassment to the industry if it had to openly admit that under any circumstances, any of its own staff don't understand the ticketing system.

The lack of rules suggest it should be handled on a common sense basis, i.e discretion shown. I am proof that this kind of free will for staff can and too often does lead to abuse of authority which is why it is necessary for so many rules need to be imposed.

I called EMT to establish if they were aware of, and adhered to, various conditions, regulations and industry policies. And guess what? They didn't. Trying to discuss that with them was futile. But there's nothing I can do, is there? We don't have an effective Regulator, or a knowledgeable and truly independent passenger watchdog either.

Don't worry about that - there are other ways this can be achieved. I know exactly what is required to ensure that this happens if it is necessary.

Id imagine that wording is intentional to prevent people from thinking they can buy their tickets on the train in all circumstances

It is explained quite clearly on the payment methods section on the National Rail site. "The following are accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed." The whole idea of that wording is to prevent people from thinking they can always pay for a ticket on board.

This is the information in the public domain that customers have access to. So long as customers are accessing information that is intended for the consumption of customers, not as a manual for retail staff, they will be getting the information which is not going to be confusing in the manner you've described :P

I totally agree. From reading RJ's posts I can only assume that EMT do not have the resources/money/will (insert any other excuse as appropriate) to train their staff properly. Staff make mistakes, we all make mistakes, but RJ's trips must be consistently bringing their poor training to the attention of at least the prosecutions team, and yet EMT's actions seem to be saying "cancel the UFN, RJ is right" and leaving it there. Surely, they must recognise that their staff require some update/refresher training?

I agree though as well that the bigger a thorn RJ becomes in their side, the more likely they are to think that RJ is the problem and not their own poor levels of training (this is not meant to sound like a criticism towards RJ - it is certainly not one!)

They don't take complaints seriously* unless the complaint is made in such a way that they are forced to. There is a specific reason why I haven't escalated the level of my complaints above the Customer Relations channel. If I wanted to, I could force the company to take me more seriously, just like I did with the CCTV mockery as they were actively taking the p*ss. As this is more of a systematic failure that can't be solved overnight, I don't want to have to take action that effectively forces anybody's hand at the moment.

*Taking a complaint seriously to include taking action to correct what necessitated the complaint and taking active measures to ensure that a complaint of similar nature is unlikely to arise again.
 
Last edited:

talltim

Established Member
Joined
17 Jan 2010
Messages
2,454
I'm just going to appologise for any offence I've caused people on this thread, and I'll keep schtum from now on.
Oh, and also say 'GO RJ!' While you shouldn't have to put up with all the c*** you get, it does make for very entertaining reading!
 

paulypaul

Member
Joined
6 Aug 2012
Messages
125
EMT's treatment of passengers like RJ's, who are using perfectly valid tickets on their services are a disgrace and the lack of regulation in this area is also a disgrace.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,160
I'm just going to appologise for any offence I've caused people on this thread, and I'll keep schtum from now on.
Oh, and also say 'GO RJ!' While you shouldn't have to put up with all the crap you get, it does make for very entertaining reading!

tim

I am sorry for my slight rant of yesterday. As a member of an organisation (the Civil Service) which seems to be the subject of ongoing and constant ill-informed vilification (to the extent many of us think it is quite intentional with the end game being to privatise everything and let "Call-me" Dave's mates cash in) as well as working for a Dept about which everyone has an (mostly complete garbage) opinion (despite knowing sweet FA about the issues) I am getting a little exasperated. Yesterday I saw red and you copped it......:oops:
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
While I am 100% behind you in your ticketing disputes with the company, part of me feels that this will do nothing but reinforce the view with onboard staff that you are setting out deliberately to be difficult, especially when coupled with awkward ticket combinations. This is not to say that you are not in the right, just that it does not help the situation.

I could be wrong, however I do not believe many people use these two forms of payment onboard.

As a customer, I'm supposed to have confidence that the staff are competent enough to know how to do their job. That includes knowing that they need to accept a Traveller's Cheque when presented with one, knowing what security procedures need to be performed and knowing that they need to give me my change in cash once they're done with that. I will giving them to any member of staff who charges me the undiscounted SOS when I already presented them with a valid ticket.

That said, I don't disagree with anything you have said there. I'll admit it, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with regards to the reason I have elected those methods of payment. My moral conscience is clear, given they should not be chinging me in the first place. The company already told me that they had been briefing their staff to stop hassling me, but until they take effective measures to actually enforce that, I will be use my own legitimate methods to enforce it myself.
 

W230

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2012
Messages
1,214
There is a specific reason why I haven't escalated the level of my complaints above the Customer Relations channel. If I wanted to, I could force the company to take me more seriously, just like I did with the CCTV mockery as they were actively taking the p*ss. As this is more of a systematic failure that can't be solved overnight, I don't want to have to take action that effectively forces anybody's hand at the moment.
Hopefully a reason might be because you're building a catalogue of errors to bring to to the attention of someone (no idea who) that will have to do something about it.

Keep up the good work!
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Makes me want to go get a job with EMT just to sort the buggers out. They really are making themselves look like a bunch of incompetents who whilst giving lip service to RJ about retraining their staff they really are not.

Its quite alarming because you then wonder how many people do just cough up the extra money even when they are travelling on a valid ticket.

It stinks.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
I travelled again from London on Monday. The TM on the train was very nice - she marked my ticket and moved on. I showed my ticket to the gateline assistant at St Pancras and I was let through as per usual (my tickets rarely work the barriers :p.)

However, the RPI I encountered on Thursday was standing near the far end of the barriers. As I proceeded to walk rather briskly to the train which was leaving in two minutes, he saw me and decided to chase me down the platform, shouting out my name multiple times. He ran up ahead of me and physically stopped me from proceeding. I told him not to touch me and again addressing me by name, he demanded to see my ticket.

I told him I didn't have time to have this conversation with him again as I had already shown my ticket to the barrier staff and the train was about to leave. He then started banging on about Thursday and how the ticket I showed him then was not valid. Seeing as he claimed he checked the NRG, I asked him which routeing points he had used to find the permitted route. He then listed a load of stations along the reasonable route. After three or four, I stopped him as it was clear he was confused. Because the ticket I held was similar to the Rice Lane one on Thursday - only this one was to Old Roan - I knew continuing this conversation was going to result in me missing the train, so I asked him to move out of my way. He kept demanding to see my ticket so I tried to get around him, but he continued to block my path. I looked back and could see the barrier / platform were looking on, surprised. They know my face as I have passed through regularly since late 2011 and have often made idle conversation, being from a railway background myself.

The RPI got more aggressive and was shouting in my face, so I pointed to the CCTV camera and informed him I would be having the footage downloaded, which clearly shows him persecuting me. I very much believe that he was attempting to goad me into reacting aggressively, but I wasn't born yesterday - I don't provide these people with any ammunition to use against me. I always hold a valid ticket or seek to obtain one at the first practicable opportunity. It's their personnel who are adamant on creating problems that don't need to be created. Eventually, the RPI moved out of my way and I got on the train. He was shouting something after me but I wasn't listening. If he really felt he was right, he could have gotten on the train and come with me to Leicester. Evidently he also functions as a roving RPI and I would have spoken to him about the ticket. However, he just created a scene at the platform then decided to stay there.

East Midlands Trains are aware of what happened and I want to see what they're going to do about it. I'm not going to tolerate being bullied by a representative of a company for whom I have paid for a service.

Other things have happened this week. Before Christmas, I complained because the ticket office at my origin station was shut and the gateline assistant refused to let me through the barriers. The ticket I wanted was not available from the machine and I wanted to part pay with Rail Travel Vouchers. Despite it being clearly advertised on National Rail Enquires and in The Manual that RTVs are accepted on train if no opportunity existed to buy a ticket before, the official advice from EMT was that their member of staff was right and that RTVs could not be accepted on board. They did however, offer to exchange any RTVs I held for a cheque. I replied to this stating I would accept this offer and pointing out the correct rules with regards to payment methods. They later relented and told me what I already knew, that in circumstances where there was no opportunity to buy the ticket, that RTVs should be accepted on train.

So last week, I took them up on their offer and sent them £300 worth of RTVs by Special Delivery. This week, they reneged on their offer, making up some excuse about them not wanting to do it because the RTVs were issued by a different TOC. This was not stipulated or inferred when the offer was made, or at any point since. They sent the RTVs back to me by Special Delivery. I got them back today and was disappointed that they didn't think to offer to reimburse the cost I incurred by sending them the vouchers Special Delivery, given it was entirely their fault that the money turned out to be wasted.

I also heard back from the only person at EMT who has provided good customer service following a dispute on Monday. I got the wrong end of the stick by assuming the TM who gave me the UFN last week didn't give IRCAS her details before checking my information. It turns out she went into the next vestibule to do that, then returned to the vesituble I was sitting in with the phone in her hand. The first thing she then said that she was calling to do a name and address check. She didn't verify her ID in my presence, but she did do it.

I was also reassured that everything in their power was being done to ensure I wasn't issued with any further notices, include repeated instructions going out to the managers to get their staff to stop trying to sell me a new ticket/issuing me with notices. For the first time in almost 15 months, someone has listened and is actually trying to do something to prevent recurrences of the same incident. Others in the company have given me a very hard time, first insisting their front line colleagues are right, then providing pathetic excuses for their transgressions, when I'm the one that has been wronged. It seems my complaints have also evaporated into thin air as I see staff I have lodged complaints against again trying the same nonsense and they confirm that nobody spoke to them about the previous incidents.

Revenue protection is about protecting the revenue within the rules - not a free licence to bully the punters. I feel staff who use the authority they are given to commit the passenger to a debt if there is a dispute as to whether or not the ticket is valid for that journey are abusing the system. They also have the power to show discretion. Consequently, I don't agree with the advice that has been given on this site for passengers to accept UFNs then appeal them, especially given my own experiences with the appeals people being in many cases, useless with determining validity and siding with the TOC by default.

Ah well - in the meantime, I have devised my own ways of dealing with ticket inspectors who try to make me pay for a new ticket when I have already showed them a valid ticket or combination of tickets. As I have stated, I now have RTVs, a Postal Order and a Traveller's Cheque. I also took delivery of £50.00 worth of 50p/20p National Transport Tokens this week. I don't have any moral objections to tipping them out on the table and letting the member of staff count them out at their leisure. Before anyone says it, denomination limits only apply to legal tender, which to the best of my knowledge, does not extend to vouchers or tokens. I may well use any or all of the above to pay for a new ticket, then the inspector can enjoy the fruits of excising their authority at the end of their shift when the paperwork needs doing (it was quite some doing in the ticket office.) Should they then accept the and issue me with a new ticket, there are then grounds for the TOC to be reported for a breach of their franchise agreement, as it is stipulated that passengers holding certain ticket types valid for their journey have the right to be able to have access to and egress from trains without further charge. Then instead of dealing with an unhappy customer, they can talk to the government about it.

Of course, at the ticket office or if on board is the first opportunity I have to get the ticket I want, I'll stick to conventional payment methods.

If the little man stands up for himself, the big boys won't be able to bully him so easily. The playground might be one matter, but in the adult world, people should really know better.
 
Last edited:

David

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2005
Messages
5,103
Location
Scunthorpe
I'm going to re-intereat the point I made a page or 2 back. By accepting the need to buy a new ticket, you are doing yourself no favours, as staff will then assume that you are in fact travelling with out a valid ticket, and have been doing so for a while (especially if it is the same people who keep checking your tickets.

My advice (I'm not a lawyer or a ticketing expert), is for you to tell the next TM or RPI who challenges your tickets, "If you think they are invalid, fil out a MG11". Then get a good lawyer who does know about railway ticketing, and let EMT pick up the costs when you win.

With a legal judgment in your favour, you will then be in a much stronger position to say that your tickets are valid.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
I'm going to re-intereat the point I made a page or 2 back. By accepting the need to buy a new ticket, you are doing yourself no favours, as staff will then assume that you are in fact travelling with out a valid ticket, and have been doing so for a while (especially if it is the same people who keep checking your tickets.

My advice (I'm not a lawyer or a ticketing expert), is for you to tell the next TM or RPI who challenges your tickets, "If you think they are invalid, fil out a MG11". Then get a good lawyer who does know about railway ticketing, and let EMT pick up the costs when you win.

With a legal judgment in your favour, you will then be in a much stronger position to say that your tickets are valid.

That's never going to happen, because the prosecution department already know all about me and what I'm about. In fact, I initiated contact with them to let them know that I wouldn't be wasting time appealing to the IAS in future, so to give them a heads up that they would be hearing about me at some point in the future. They have actually been more helpful than anyone in other department there in assisting me.

I did however use that line on the RPI on Thursday. He took no notice and instead asked to see my railcard and claimed it wasn't signed, using that as a justification to charge me for a new ticket.

Bear in mind that when I have refused to buy a new ticket in the past on the basis that I already showed them a valid ticket or tickets, the Train Managers have done various things in response including;

- Withdrawing a Priv that I wasn't using
- Attempting to withdraw my TfL Staff Pass
- Attempting to detrain me at various station calls
- Summoning Revenue Protection to meet the train and attempt to detrain me
- Summoning Police Officers to back them up

Sometimes the UFN is actually their last resort after all else fails. So I think it's better that I take a more calculated approach to deal with them.
 
Last edited:

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
Hmmmm, RJ - I agree with David here. Mind you, you must know there's only limited mileage in using RTVs and tokens (btw, tokens?! That's a new one on me!) - ultimately, I'd be going down the route of saying ok, here's my name and address, letting them interview me under caution in which I'd step by step explain the validity which they will spend ages having to write up in an MG11, word for word, only for the prosecution department to take one look and throw it in the bin.

If the RPI insists on doing a UFN, and you decline to sign it as is your right, let them ring the BTP. Tell the officer that you've more than complied with your obligations in that you've shown valid tickets for your journey *and* provided correct details when asked, which the RPI has verified. And then play your ace card and make a complaint about wasting Police time which as a taxpayer, will be a complaint you expect to be taken seriously.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,160
RJ

What the RPI did (even excluding the physical contact) is arguably an assault - yes in some circumstances shouting can be deemed to be exactly that! If it happens again call the BTP and ask for him to be arrested. If you doubt what I say (which I know all too well as a result of my day job - no further details) see:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_order_offences/

I would suggest that you might also point out to EMT that the behaviour of their staff towards you is verging on harassment (for letters and bills read erroneous ticket challenges). See:
http://www.out-law.com/page-9826
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...rassment-over-repeated-letters-and-bills.html
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
Where do you get National Transport Tokens? I must get myself some.

That's what I was thinking last night, might give them a try.

I would try using a Postal Order but the commission that is charged is a bit steep.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
However, the RPI I encountered on Thursday was standing near the far end of the barriers. As I proceeded to walk rather briskly to the train which was leaving in two minutes, he saw me and decided to chase me down the platform, shouting out my name multiple times.

By your name?! He is getting a little too close for comfort isn't he? :D

What the RPI did (even excluding the physical contact) is arguably an assault - yes in some circumstances shouting can be deemed to be exactly that! If it happens again call the BTP and ask for him to be arrested. If you doubt what I say (which I know all too well as a result of my day job - no further details) see:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_order_offences/

I would suggest that you might also point out to EMT that the behaviour of their staff towards you is verging on harassment (for letters and bills read erroneous ticket challenges). See:
http://www.out-law.com/page-9826
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...rassment-over-repeated-letters-and-bills.html

Yes, I would think this is harassment. Call BTP on the guy if it happens again and (if you can afford the time penalty of taking the next train) send the tickets to EMT for Delay Repay if you miss the train.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
National Transport Tokens are provided free of charge, or at less than their face value by certain councils. They're normally offered to groups of people who may otherwise be to some extent, excluded from transport services. Including hard up students.

RJ

What the RPI did (even excluding the physical contact) is arguably an assault - yes in some circumstances shouting can be deemed to be exactly that! If it happens again call the BTP and ask for him to be arrested. If you doubt what I say (which I know all too well as a result of my day job - no further details) see:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_order_offences/

I would suggest that you might also point out to EMT that the behaviour of their staff towards you is verging on harassment (for letters and bills read erroneous ticket challenges). See:
http://www.out-law.com/page-9826
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...rassment-over-repeated-letters-and-bills.html

I believe you. That's exactly what I was going to do had I missed the train. As for legal action, that depends on what the company has to say about it. Until recently, they have defended the actions of their staff and given me a hard time every single time I have complained about being charged for a new ticket or been issued with a PFN or UFN, by failing to investigate ticketing disputes to a competent standard and in some cases, apparently not even feeding back to their staff.

Now I'm upping the stakes with my complaint, I want to see how they will react.

More recently, one person in the company has recognised there is an issue and is making valiant efforts to address it, but it only took 12 months and an RPO threatening to report me for prosecution for things to get to this stage.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
I believe you. That's exactly what I was going to do had I missed the train. As for legal action, that depends on what the company has to say about it. Until recently, they have defended the actions of their staff and given me a hard time every single time I have complained about being charged for a new ticket or been issued with a PFN or UFN, by failing to investigate ticketing disputes to a competent standard and in some cases, apparently not even feeding back to their staff.

It doesn't matter what they normally do. This is clearly unacceptable behaviour from the particular member of staff whatever the dispute with the passenger.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Wow this thread just gets better and better doesnt it? I am absolutley stunned by your treatment from the RPI and I do hope that you have asked for the CCTV and are making a complaint. This is disgusting behaviour and EMT really should make a stand about this now - you are being harrassed and victimised now for simply going about your travel in a perfectly legitimate way. It needs to be stopped.

I hope you have kept all correspondance from EMT over the lat year with regards to these issues.


Wow Its been a while since Ive seen transport tokens being used to pay for a ticket.
 

87electric

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2010
Messages
1,023
RJ's disputes are compelling reading and i for one support his exposing of shoddy work practices. I'm sure EMT must have seen this thread. Are there any EMT employees that actually post on here?
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
Hmmmm, RJ - I agree with David here. Mind you, you must know there's only limited mileage in using RTVs and tokens (btw, tokens?! That's a new one on me!) - ultimately, I'd be going down the route of saying ok, here's my name and address, letting them interview me under caution in which I'd step by step explain the validity which they will spend ages having to write up in an MG11, word for word, only for the prosecution department to take one look and throw it in the bin.

If the RPI insists on doing a UFN, and you decline to sign it as is your right, let them ring the BTP. Tell the officer that you've more than complied with your obligations in that you've shown valid tickets for your journey *and* provided correct details when asked, which the RPI has verified. And then play your ace card and make a complaint about wasting Police time which as a taxpayer, will be a complaint you expect to be taken seriously.

Hmmm - seems like a good idea. The thing is, I've tried this a few times before and they're always reluctant to do an MG11. A few of the UFNs I've had have been endorsed "REFUSED TO SIGN" and I also often refuse to provide my Date of Birth. In other words, they exercise their authority to take my name and address and after that point, I have no say as to whether or not they issue a UFN. They also seem to like withdrawing my ticket, but when I demand a free excess ticket covering the entire journey, more often than not I get it back. Zero fare = more paperwork and please explains :p. Reading between the lines, the company didn't appear to be best pleased the last time I was given a £139.50 London to Leicester SOR for free by a TM who withdrew my ticket. That time, they emailed me a few hours after I got off the train to tell me that they were getting the loophole I had used shut straight away.

It almost seems that they're willing to go against every rule in the book just to get one over on me! I don't know whether this is deliberate or just through very poor training on RP procedures but I don't see why they don't just use their discretion. They're also incriminating themselves by charging for a new Anytime Single without discount, as the amount is always at odds with the excess fare procedures as described in the NRCoC. For a long time, it was the Not Via London tickets I used which was the sticking point - but they always went for the jugular, with only a minority thinking to issue a UFN for the excess amount.

I don't think the Traveller's Cheque handling process was covered in my training either, but we were certainly shown how to fill out the accountancy balance sheets which lists a good 20+ methods of payment, many of which are not shown on NRE. We were also shown The Manual and told it should be used if there were no local instructions available regarding payment methods.
 
Last edited:

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
My understanding of a UFN is that it is in effect evidence of a civil debt. If you haven't signed to say you agree that you owe it, does the civil debt still exist?
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
Probably not. But the method of handling it if unpaid would probably be the same, i.e. prosecution.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,869
Location
Yorkshire
RJ's disputes are compelling reading and i for one support his exposing of shoddy work practices. I'm sure EMT must have seen this thread.
Oh, they have indeed.

Someone phoned them to ask about some of their policies, the conversation went like this:

Member of Public: Do you charge people a Penalty Fare if a passenger is on a ticket that is not valid for the train due to a published time restriction or route restriction applicable to the ticket?
Customer Relations: Yes
Member of Public: Are you sure, can you check if this is your policy as it is not what the Penatly Fare policy on the DfT website states.
Customer Relations: Have you been charged a Penalty Fare?
Member of Public: No
Customer Relations: Do you know of anyone who has?
Member of Public: Yes but I don't wish to discuss a case, I just want to discuss your policy
Customer Relations: I can't discuss that case, I know who you are talking about, I can't discuss it
Member of Public: I don't want to discuss it, I want to discuss your policy, which is incorrect

The conversation went something like that, went round in circles, eventually a manager was summoned who said she would check the legislation and ensure guidance was given to all staff.

I do not know if EMT actioned that or not, I could ask the person who called them to chase it up I suppose, or I could ask my contacts at EMT, which brings me to...

Are there any EMT employees that actually post on here?
Of course! I know a few. Most people don't want to reveal their employer, which is understandable.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
Probably not. But the method of handling it if unpaid would probably be the same, i.e. prosecution.

Yes, because you've given name and address details as you're required. The UFN in my opinion is worthless if unsigned. Let them try and prosecute RJ for not having a valid ticket - would be a costly mistake now wouldn't it?

 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
The threat of prosecution has all but been removed. My issue now is focusing on my interactions with the front line staff as that's where all the problems are being created. I will be working on devising legitimate techniques to discourage them from trying to charge me for a new ticket in the first place. This is necessary to compensate for numerous failures on the company's part. If their staff are going to be demonstrating tendencies to hold a personal grudge, I don't want to give my details to any of them.

I will then be working on getting the organisational attitudes, behaviours and policies changed so that the problems with the front line staff can be mitigated. I've seen enough to be able to deduce the areas I need to work on and what needs to be done to achieve this.

With regards to the debt, IRCAS explain what exactly it is they do here. If it isn't possible to prosecute and no appeal has been upheld, they'll refer the debt to a specialist debt collection agency.
 
Last edited:

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
If it isn't possible to prosecute and no appeal has been upheld, they'll refer the debt to a specialist debt collection agency.

I presume they would need to get a CCJ in order to do that?
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
No. The said agency just phones you and calls to your house saying "pay now" and you say "I don't owe anything" and they say "pay now" again.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top