Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[NorthKent1989]

It isn’t minor, and there are plenty of people whose mental and physical health is challenged by this change. Hysterical demands do your cause no favours, and reinforce the impression that all you care about is the effect on yourself.

At this point Covid is nothing more than a very bad cold, flu at worse and we’ve lived with those forever, have to rip the the plaster off with Covid at done point and do the same?

Funny how you mention mental health, considering we’re facing the biggest mental health crisis thanks to lockdowns and restrictions, domestic violence has gone up, are those not worthy causes or are they too hysterical for your liking?

 

[35B]

Johnson is taking a gamble for sure, and if it goes wrong (there *is* for sure an element of risk with lots of young people still unvaccinated), then things will certainly get difficult politically.

However given mask use on the Underground has dropped quite considerably in recent weeks, I’d say Khan is a bit out of step with London. There is very little social distancing in London now.

It’s all a little academic though, as if masks worked well then we wouldn’t be where we have been this year.

I was careful to say “selectorate”, not voters in general. There’s a big difference, especially in safe seats.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Stop. Making. Assumptions. About. How. People. Are. Being. Affected.

Seriously.

Then maybe don’t keep expecting others to accept that freedom day isn’t really freedom day at all or stop finding reasons why we should keep delaying because of the xyz variant or what not, because there’s no real good reason to keep dragging this on

 

[35B]

At this point Covid is nothing more than a very bad cold, flu at worse and we’ve lived with those forever, have to rip the the plaster off with Covid at done point and do the same?

Funny how you mention mental health, considering we’re facing the biggest mental health crisis thanks to lockdowns and restrictions, domestic violence has gone up, are those not worthy causes or are they too hysterical for your liking?

No, they’re vitally important and there are trade offs that government has been making the whole way through. I believe that the policy is more or less right, but being badly communicated and not helped by the language of freedom which is undermining the importance of showing some caution as we “rip the plaster off”.

 

[NorthKent1989]

What a farce it will be at places like Shenfield and Stratford. "The next train to London is a TfL Rail service, you must wear a face covering to board this service". Will those who don't want to wear a face covering be able to ignore TfL Rail services when claiming Delay Repay?

Are TfL seriously going to try and enforce it at, say, Shepherd's Bush? Surely people will just wise up and say "yeah, I'm catching a Southern service".

This is utterly pathetic political gameplaying. I'd expect nothing less from Khan.

The real 'proof of the pudding' will be in how many people wear face coverings on National Rail vs TfL services, and how the usage of each of the two recovers.

Khan has to be seen to be doing something, he hasn’t yet realised that mask usage is 50/50 and as per usual he’s jumped into something unknown feet first, the is the mayor who reduced the Central line services in lockdown one to put people off using the tube only to find that there was zero social distancing because the trains were so packed.

No, they’re vitally important and there are trade offs that government has been making the whole way through. I believe that the policy is more or less right, but being badly communicated and not helped by the language of freedom which is undermining the importance of showing some caution as we “rip the plaster off”.

Vaccinate the vulnerable then we can open up

Vaccinate people so you can go on. Holiday

Vaccinate for freedom day in June!

How much more caution can there be at this point? We are no longer in March 2020, we are on the other side of that.

It’s not bad communication at all it Boris cow tailing to the pro lockdown crowd/media

 

[102 fan]

Just stop wearing facecoverings. The more people are seen without will encourage the rest.

History is not made by those who meekly accept b****y silly rules.

It's high time these comfort blankets were consigned to the bin. As I've said before, covid cases rose when they were mandatory, so how effective are they?

 

[MattA7]

Just stop wearing facecoverings. The more people are seen without will encourage the rest.

History is not made by those who meekly accept b****y silly rules.

It's high time these comfort blankets were consigned to the bin. As I've said before, covid cases rose when they were mandatory, so how effective are they?

Not to mention some states in the US removed their mask mandates and cases continued to fall making the effectiveness of masks more dubious.

One Month After COVID-19 Mandates Lift, Numbers Continue to Decline

Saturday marks one month since Texas has been fully reopened. This week, the Texas Department of State Health Services reported a downward trend in daily cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. NBC 5 reporter Lili Zheng reports a similar trend in Tarrant County.

www.nbcdfw.com

According to the Texas Department of State Health Services, the state had an average of 2,163 new cases of COVID-19 and 74 deaths each day over the past seven days. The state noted testing and case reporting may have been affected by the Easter holiday weekend. As of Wednesday, there were 2,868 hospitalizations. All three factors are showing a downward trend, according to the state.

 

[XAM2175]

Reality is there’s plenty of places where people are not fulfilling their full work remit whilst at home. These people know full well that this isn’t going to last forever.

A lot of those people weren't fulfilling their "full work remit" whilst in the office, either.

 

[DelayRepay]

The problem is even irreversible BoJo has dialled back on that outcome now if things get out of hand so I would rather have stage 3 for another few months to get vaccination levels up rather than risk us even ending up back at stage 2 or worse.

I think the vaccination programme has more or less reached everyone who wants one now. Everyone over 18 has been eligible for a vaccine for a few weeks, and there is no shortage of appointments and walk-in clinics. The number of first doses being given each day is now very low - less than 100k per day in England since the start of July. England has 87.1% of over 18s vaccinated with their first dose - I think the remaining 12.9% are people who don't want one.

I guess there will be a few more over the next few days - clearly the 'threat' of vaccine certification being required to attend certain events is designed to encourage further uptake. And they have to finish the second doses for people who've only had one. But unless the JCVI recommends vaccinating teenagers, I think we're nearing the end of this (incredibly successful) programme.

What is really interesting is if you filter by region. E.g in London only 64.4% have had their first dose. I know demographics plays a part but that is low and suggests that London is not well protected by vaccines. Whilst I do not agree with the mask mandate on TfL, I do understand why the mayor is worried about what might happen next. Especially given the pressure the London hospitals saw in previous waves.

It would be far better, in my view, for the Mayor to focus all his efforts and resources on understanding how that figure can be increased, rather than focusing on measures that, at best, will have a very limited effect.

 

[Watershed]

I think the vaccination programme has more or less reached everyone who wants one now. Everyone over 18 has been eligible for a vaccine for a few weeks, and there is no shortage of appointments and walk-in clinics. The number of first doses being given each day is now very low - less than 100k per day in England since the start of July. England has 87.1% of over 18s vaccinated with their first dose - I think the remaining 12.9% are people who don't want one.

I guess there will be a few more over the next few days - clearly the 'threat' of vaccine certification being required to attend certain events is designed to encourage further uptake. And they have to finish the second doses for people who've only had one. But unless the JCVI recommends vaccinating teenagers, I think we're nearing the end of this (incredibly successful) programme.

What is really interesting is if you filter by region. E.g in London only 64.4% have had their first dose. I know demographics plays a part but that is low and suggests that London is not well protected by vaccines. Whilst I do not agree with the mask mandate on TfL, I do understand why the mayor is worried about what might happen next. Especially given the pressure the London hospitals saw in previous waves.

It would be far better, in my view, for the Mayor to focus all his efforts and resources on understanding how that figure can be increased, rather than focusing on measures that, at best, will have a very limited effect.

Ah but encouraging people to have a vaccine doesn't let him do political point-scoring...

 

[big_rig]

Are strawman arguments what this forum is now reduced to? Putting words in people's mouths, accusing forum members of 'intellectual dishonesty' simply for disagreeing with your viewpoint (assuming that comment was meant for me), deliberate misrepresentation?

I want restrictions gone this very instant. Now. At once. Immediately. Without Delay. I'm sick of them. But I recognise that will have significant downsides because we're not out of the woods yet, much as though I would like us to be. I can't simply wish the stark realities away, nor am I going to indulge myself in self-serving arguments that every choice is a bad as another so we may as well give up and let the virus do what it will.

Can we all please just take a breath and think what we're posting. Appreciate tempers run high on this issue but this thread is debasing what is usually an excellent discussion forum.

I think it is dishonest to say on one hand that people want restrictions gone ‘this very instant’ but on the other to say that they can’t because of, well, no reason basically. There is so much bad faith pro-lockdown arguing going on that it’s difficult to interpret it as anything but a veiled desire for restrictions to continue forever. For the rest of our lives.

What is the reason to keep them? We have vaccinated basically everybody who wants it now (we are barely increasing first doses by 1% a week) and nobody who is waiting for their second dose (myself included) is at any possible risk from covid at all. None. The roadmap has been staggered over a series of several months and already delayed on spurious grounds for a month. Any further delay in my honest opinion is either:

1) Delay purely for the sake of it and for no good reason; or
2) Comes with a hidden agenda - ‘just a few more weeks’ which when those few more weeks come by, there will be another excuse, then it will be winter so not then, then more excuses next year.

The stakes are too high to entertain 1) as it leads to the same outcome as 2) - indefinite restrictions. I don’t want to live with these arbitrary restrictions for the rest of my life just because. There needs to be an infinitely better reason than ‘stark realities.’ The average age of death with covid is ~83 - it isn’t something to define all life on earth and should be forgotten about.

 

[birchesgreen]

What is the reason to keep them? We have vaccinated basically everybody who wants it now (we are barely increasing first doses by 1% a week) and nobody who is waiting for their second dose (myself included) is at any possible risk from covid at all. None.

You are incorrect.

 

[yorksrob]

Khan knows precisely what he’s doing. He’s taking the view of the many, especially in his selectorate (keep an eye on the possibility of a by election in east London if the MP loses their housing fraud trial), and marking a political difference Johnson. Andy “Stafford” Burnham is doing precisely the same.

They, and I think the government, recognise that a free for all will maximise the size of the exit wave, and cause problems as case numbers rise, people are forced to isolate, and the NHS comes under pressure (a pressure that’s already increasing due to both real cases and isolations). They see political opportunity in this, whereas Johnson is constrained by his MPs (very many of whom have been radicalised by the Brexit process and are succumbing to winner takes all politics) and therefore forced down the road of “freedom day” messaging whether or not justified.

The pity is that relaxation is the right policy, but comes with costs and risks that he has no political credibility left to cope with.

It's only a "free for all" because it's being painted as such by pro-restriction people.

In reality it's a fairly small number of restrictions being lifted towards the end of the process, with many, such as testing and self-isolation being retained. The fact that the pro-restriction side is becoming so exercised about face coverings - always one of the more marginal measures, makes it clear that this is about optics, not "the science".

As for those calling for face coverings etc to remain, I might have more sympathy if it was explicit that they were intending to lift once the adult vaccination programme has been completed - then I might have more confidence that this wasn't going to be never-ending.

What is really interesting is if you filter by region. E.g in London only 64.4% have had their first dose. I know demographics plays a part but that is low and suggests that London is not well protected by vaccines. Whilst I do not agree with the mask mandate on TfL, I do understand why the mayor is worried about what might happen next. Especially given the pressure the London hospitals saw in previous waves.

It would be far better, in my view, for the Mayor to focus all his efforts and resources on understanding how that figure can be increased, rather than focusing on measures that, at best, will have a very limited effect.

I hadn't realisedd the vaccination stats varied so much, but that is fairly lamentable.

Looks as though Kahn needs to be getting his finger out with more worthwhile activities.

 

[big_rig]

Grant Shapps on Sky making an absolute meal of it. Mask wearing is about personal responsibility now but it is also perfectly good sense for operators to make rules about what to do. It makes good sense to not wear a mask on an empty national rail service but it also makes perfectly good sense for that approach to be banned on a TfL train. We have been too accustomed to the Government making rules for us over the last 16 months, so it is time for guidance, but it is also good sense for operators to issue blanket instructions.

Silence on how long this will apply for too. So forever then.

 

[notlob.divad]

At this point Covid is nothing more than a very bad cold, flu at worse

Tell that to my boss who cannot walk properly at the moment due to Covid related complications.

 

[Failed Unit]

Tell that to my boss who cannot walk properly at the moment due to Covid related complications.

Some people can never walk again after a RTC. That is acceptable however. (They never talk about banning cars to prevent such injuries). I assume that was before the mask wearing was mandatory then….

 

[Bantamzen]

It's impossible to achieve from where we are at now. That ship sailed a long time ago. But there was a time when it was achievable, and it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

There is all kinds of wrong about that statement. For a start, logistically speak comparing Australia / New Zealand to the UK is like comparing apples with small village in Cornwall. The UK relies heavily on a lot of trade by road & rail, so shutting the borders the way those countries did would be impossible, because as you may have noticed Australia & New Zealand don't have any physical links to a nearby economic block. And before you reach for the "just send the containers over", there was enough disruption to flow thanks to the increased bureaucracy post-Brexit without slowing things down more by not allowing drive-on / drive-off movement.

Then of course there is the small matter of population density, an important factor when considering that one of the biggest sources of transmission is in homes. Lots of densely populated areas close to each other means that transmission is much more likely here than in countries with much more spread out areas of population pockets. And of course add to this the fact the virus was already on our shores before we even really knew it was a thing makes a zero covid policy even from early January pretty much impossible.

You seem to be labouring under the illusion that Australia & New Zealand are living in a "near zero covid" Nirvana. You couldn't be further from the truth. Yes they have pursed such policies, but despite some pretty hefty measures covid continues to bubble along, and lockdowns are now a regular part of life 18 months after they started. They don't have an exit strategy, and are struggling with vaccination programmes because they convinced themselves that zero-covid was the way. None of this points to a successful policy. How much is all this costing them, their citizens & their jobs, as well as future funding for the respective health services? Answers on a postcard please....

 

[DelayRepay]

Tell that to my boss who cannot walk properly at the moment due to Covid related complications.

I sympathise and I have a friend whose dad is suffering too.

But my friend's dad contracted Covid before he'd been vaccinated. We are in a different world now and measures need to reflect the reality today, not the reality of 6 - 12 months ago.

 

[yorkie]

It isn’t minor, and there are plenty of people whose mental and physical health is challenged by this change. Hysterical demands do your cause no favours, and reinforce the impression that all you care about is the effect on yourself.

Tell that to my boss who cannot walk properly at the moment due to Covid related complications.

But do we have any evidence that the virus itself is any more dangerous than OC43?

My understanding is that the key difference is our immunity to these viruses. This is a very important distinction. But if you gave any evidence to the contrary I'd be interested to hear it.

OC43 is believed to have caused the pandemic of around 1890. It would have taken a few years of natural infections to reach endemic equilibrium; we are lucky we live in an age of mass vaccinations.

 

[duncanp]

You seem to be labouring under the illusion that Australia & New Zealand are living in a "near zero covid" Nirvana. You couldn't be further from the truth. Yes they have pursed such policies, but despite some pretty hefty measures covid continues to bubble along, and lockdowns are now a regular part of life 18 months after they started. They don't have an exit strategy, and are struggling with vaccination programmes because they convinced themselves that zero-covid was the way. None of this points to a successful policy. How much is all this costing them, their citizens & their jobs, as well as future funding for the respective health services? Answers on a postcard please....

The lockdown in Sydney has been extended by another two weeks, and there is no guarantee that it won't be extended again after those two weeks are up.

Does anyone really want to live in a society where strict lockdowns (including stay at home orders and business closures ) can be imposed at a moment's notice, with no assurance about when these lockdowns might end?

 

[island]

And I was chatting to four NR staff on said concourse the other week and they all had exemption lanyards

Rail staff on duty are all exempt in that have never been legally required to wear face coverings.

 

[notlob.divad]

Some people can never walk again after a RTC. That is acceptable however. (They never talk about banning cars to prevent such injuries). I assume that was before the mask wearing was mandatory then….

No not being able to walk again after an RTC is not acceptable. Companies and governments (certainly western ones) have made huge strides in reducing the effects of RTCs, and continually push further. Seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, mandatory child seats, licensing, speed cameras. etc etc etc Yes they don't 'ban' cars, but they take other mitigating measures.

Using RTCs as a benchmark for what is acceptable is a terrible terrible yard stick. Also your over exagerated end-point of banning road vehicles, is supposed to be equivilent to what?.. banning all contact with any other member of the human race including the people you live with?

 

[quantinghome]

I hadn't realisedd the vaccination stats varied so much, but that is fairly lamentable.

Looks as though Kahn needs to be getting his finger out with more worthwhile activities.

Why is it 'lamentable'? Population age profile skews younger in London and it's only in the last few weeks that 18+ have been eligible for their first jabs. Khan had nothing to do with the decision on rolling out vaccines by age.

 

[Domh245]

It makes good sense to not wear a mask on an empty national rail service but it also makes perfectly good sense for that approach to be banned on a TfL train.

I've no intention of wearing a mask on TfL services when they're quiet from next Monday, but I'll also be looking to take alternative non-TfL routes when I can!

 

[notlob.divad]

I sympathise and I have a friend whose dad is suffering too.

But my friend's dad contracted Covid before he'd been vaccinated. We are in a different world now and measures need to reflect the reality today, not the reality of 6 - 12 months ago.

I fully agree. which is why I would like to see life getting back to some form of normality (all be it a friendly, more considerate normal than 2019). However I have no problem with the idea of masks being retained in places where some people have no option to choose to avoid. Mainly essential shops and public transport, it is what I will choose to do, mask mandate or no mask mandate.

 

[Failed Unit]

No not being able to walk again after an RTC is not acceptable. Companies and governments (certainly western ones) have made huge strides in reducing the effects of RTCs, and continually push further. Seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones, mandatory child seats, licensing, speed cameras. etc etc etc Yes they don't 'ban' cars, but they take other mitigating measures.

Using RTCs as a benchmark for what is acceptable is a terrible terrible yard stick. Also your over exagerated end-point of banning road vehicles, is supposed to be equivilent to what?.. banning all contact with any other member of the human race including the people you live with?

That certainly appears what some people are pushing for, to totally eliminate COVID. Like all illnesses some people will have serious issues. But we can’t permanently close society to protect this unfortunate minority.

I am personally getting sick of the vigilantes. So July 19th can’t come quickly enough.

 

[DelayRepay]

Why is it 'lamentable'? Population age profile skews younger in London and it's only in the last few weeks that 18+ have been eligible for their first jabs. Khan had nothing to do with the decision on rolling out vaccines by age.

But in that few weeks, most 18+ have had the opportunity to be vaccinated. There are plenty of appointments, and we regularly see news reports of walk in centres at places like football stadia.

Khan isn't responsible for the roll out, but he does hold a position of influence and should be using that to address the fact that young people are not coming forward for vaccination (something that is proven to help prevent Covid spreading through communities), rather than faffing around telling people to put a bit of old rag over their face (something which has very little, if any, evidence of benefit).

 

[NorthKent1989]

Tell that to my boss who cannot walk properly at the moment due to Covid related complications.

I am sorry for your boss, I hope he gets better long term.

But I don’t see how keeping restrictions on will help matters, as I’ve said before other factors are being ignored because of Covid.

So before you advocate for further restrictions maybe consider that others have missed vital appointments last year due to their own illnesses non related to Covid.

I've no intention of wearing a mask on TfL services when they're quiet from next Monday, but I'll also be looking to take alternative non-TfL routes when I can!

Same here, I’m living in Crystal Palace at the moment, a station with TfL and Southern services, guess which train I’ll be taking.

 

[Watershed]

Rail staff on duty are all exempt in that have never been legally required to wear face coverings.

They're wouldn't be committing an offence, correct. That doesn't mean their employer is likely to be satisfied with them failing to wear a face covering, unless they attest to have a medical exemption...

 

[quantinghome]

But in that few weeks, most 18+ have had the opportunity to be vaccinated. There are plenty of appointments, and we regularly see news reports of walk in centres at places like football stadia.

Khan isn't responsible for the roll out, but he does hold a position of influence and should be using that to address the fact that young people are not coming forward for vaccination (something that is proven to help prevent Covid spreading through communities), rather than faffing around telling people to put a bit of old rag over their face (something which has very little, if any, evidence of benefit).

A quick google will show you what he has been doing to increase vaccination take up.