Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[DelayRepay]

I fully agree. which is why I would like to see life getting back to some form of normality (all be it a friendly, more considerate normal than 2019). However I have no problem with the idea of masks being retained in places where some people have no option to choose to avoid. Mainly essential shops and public transport, it is what I will choose to do, mask mandate or no mask mandate.

It's really a question of what measures are proportionate.

I do not wish to wear a mask and I will not wear one from next Monday. I have worn one until now because I am not excempt.

If I genuinely believed that wearing a mask would save someone else's life, I would wear one. I think that applies to most decent people, including a lot who would find wearing a mask difficult and would be entitled to claim exceptions.

So, for those who think masks are necessary, please show the scientific evidence that shows how effective they are. We talk a lot about the effectiveness of vaccines, so where is the equivalent data for masks?

Regarding the comparison to cars - we mandate seat belts because there is evidence that they provide significant risk mitigation, and are proportionate. We do not mandate a blanket 10mph speed limit because it would not be proportionate. In terms of Covid mitigation, we encourage vaccination because it's proven to mitigate risk. If we wish to encourage or even mandate mask wearing, there needs to be a similar level of proof. (I was slightly more sympathetic when masks were first introduced, but a year later there has been plenty of time to run research and collect evidence).

 

[yorksrob]

Why is it 'lamentable'? Population age profile skews younger in London and it's only in the last few weeks that 18+ have been eligible for their first jabs. Khan had nothing to do with the decision on rolling out vaccines by age.

All adults over 18 have had the opportunity to get their first dose.

Perhaps he needs to set up a vaccination centre on one of his red buses and drive it to the low take-up areas.

 

[island]

It's really a question of what measures are proportionate.

I do not wish to wear a mask and I will not wear one from next Monday. I have worn one until now because I am not excempt.

If I genuinely believed that wearing a mask would save someone else's life, I would wear one. I think that applies to most decent people, including a lot who would find wearing a mask difficult and would be entitled to claim exceptions.

So, for those who think masks are necessary, please show the scientific evidence that shows how effective they are. We talk a lot about the effectiveness of vaccines, so where is the equivalent data for masks?

Regarding the comparison to cars - we mandate seat belts because there is evidence that they provide significant risk mitigation, and are proportionate. We do not mandate a blanket 10mph speed limit because it would not be proportionate. In terms of Covid mitigation, we encourage vaccination because it's proven to mitigate risk. If we wish to encourage or even mandate mask wearing, there needs to be a similar level of proof. (I was slightly more sympathetic when masks were first introduced, but a year later there has been plenty of time to run research and collect evidence).

Very well put.

 

[trebor79]

The problem is even irreversible BoJo has dialled back on that outcome now if things get out of hand so I would rather have stage 3 for another few months to get vaccination levels up rather than risk us even ending up back at stage 2 or worse.

But it wouldn't be "another few months". Because that takes us to autumn, and then it's "well, we don't want the exit wave in winter right when the NHS is under pressure anyway in an ordinary year, so we will have to wait until early summer". Public won't support that, backbench tory MPs won't support than and the national coffers won't support that. They did try to explain this on Monday - it's better to do it now, when NHS is usually not particularly busy.

 

[DelayRepay]

A quick google will show you what he has been doing to increase vaccination take up.

Maybe, and perhaps it's because I don't live in London but all I've seen from him is a focus on masks. If he used that airtime to encourage vaccination instead London might be in a better position to live without masks now.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just to alert posters that we have a new thread specifically to discuss the Mayor of London's decision to continue with mandatory face mask wearing on TfL services which can be found here:

Sadiq Khan to make face masks a condition of carriage | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

All discussion on that issue going forwards should be confined to that thread.

Thanks

 

[notlob.divad]

But I don’t see how keeping restrictions on will help matters, as I’ve said before other factors are being ignored because of Covid.

So before you advocate for further restrictions maybe consider that others have missed vital appointments last year due to their own illnesses non related to Covid.

And you seem to be forgetting that if there had been no restrictions, a similar sized group (if not exactly the same) would also have missed vital appointments for their non-covid related illnesses, as resources would still have been diverted.

I am not advocating new restrictions or further restrictions. I am actually a litlte annoyed that they do not as yet appear to be opening travel up a bit further. However I don't see wearing a mask as a restriction. I have certainly never stopped myself from doing something because I have to wear a mask whilst I do it.

 

[westv]

Is there any news yet on whether those TOCs that still implemented "social distancing" (such as LNER) on their services are going to end that come 19/7?

 

[duncanp]

However I don't see wearing a mask as a restriction. I have certainly never stopped myself from doing something because I have to wear a mask whilst I do it.

You might not see wearing a mask as a restriction, but other people most certainly do.

I can't imagine many people actually like wearing a mask.

It will be interesting to observe actual behaviour in areas where masks are no longer mandatory on public transport, as opposed to what people say they will do in dubious opinion polls.

 

[_toommm_]

Is there any news yet on whether those TOCs that still implemented "social distancing" (such as LNER) on their services are going to end that come 19/7?

I believe LNER are still going to reserve seats with social distancing in mind (so 70% capacity according to them).

 

[takno]

However I don't see wearing a mask as a restriction. I have certainly never stopped myself from doing something because I have to wear a mask whilst I do it.

You do you. I can't wear masks, and the anxiety caused by faffing with lanyards and smug people judging me means that I have been in "essential" shops exactly twice in a year.

I think the reason Nicola is so keen to keep them in Scotland is because she went on a personal journey from finding them slightly irritating to finding them fairly manageable. She seems to lack the insight and empathy to understand that other people are struggling with facemasks in a different way to her. Put simply, her personal experience isn't enough information to make a decision.

Don't be like Nicola

 

[Highlandspring]

Rail staff on duty are all exempt in that have never been legally required to wear face coverings.

Network Rail company policy is somewhat at variance with that, sadly.

 

[trebor79]

I believe LNER are still going to reserve seats with social distancing in mind (so 70% capacity according to them).

Why? Social distancing rules end from 19th?
I'm really starting to think the LNER/DfT are trying to kill off long distance ECML traffic. Perhaps it's all a precursor to HS2 openng. "Not many people are using LNER services [because we won't allow them too], and now HS2 is open it will cannabalise the remaining traffic so there's no point having this duplicate TOC to points north, so we'll shut it".

 

[VauxhallandI]

You've no idea what I want or don't want.

I am suggesting that a 'freedom day' style rapid removal of restrictions, as you advocate, might backfire. I'm not saying this will happen, but there seems to a reasonable chance it might. Alternatively we might end up with a relatively small exit wave of less than 100 deaths per day which is done by the end of August and it's all over. Obviously I would prefer the latter option.


I'm not moving goalposts. I don't have any goalposts. I'm not on the pitch. Do you think my opinion actually affects the outcome of this in any way?


You've no idea what damage these 16 months has done to me or my family. Stop making assumptions about people's situations.

Why do you keep insisting on calling it a "rapid removal of restrictions" ?

Are you in denial of the fact this has been four stages over months? Thats a fact a reality you need to acknowledge if you want anyone to take you for anything but a troll.

 

[notlob.divad]

You might not see wearing a mask as a restriction, but other people most certainly do.

I can't imagine many people actually like wearing a mask.

You do you. I can't wear masks, and the anxiety caused by faffing with lanyards and smug people judging me means that I have been in "essential" shops exactly twice in a year.

I think the reason Nicola is so keen to keep them in Scotland is because she went on a personal journey from finding them slightly irritating to finding them fairly manageable. She seems to lack the insight and empathy to understand that other people are struggling with facemasks in a different way to her. Put simply, her personal experience isn't enough information to make a decision.

Don't be like Nicola

I am aware of a not insignificant number of people who find the requirements to cover their nether regions in public a restriction. I am also aware of a very large portion of people who get incredibly anxious whenever they have to decide what clothes to wear. Personally I don't particularly like wearing clothes when the temperature climbs above 35 and I cannot imagine many people actually like wearing them, and there is no scientific proof that they are nessesary beyond what is required to keep ourselves warm.

I look forward to your campaign for the abolition of public indecency laws, in order to allow those who want to walk around without any clothes on free themselves of this oppressive authoritarian requirement.

**Yes I am being intentionally obtuse with this, but it isn't that far of a stretch from reading what is on this forum.**

 

[westv]

I am aware of a not insignificant number of people who find the requirements to cover their nether regions in public a restriction. I am also aware of a very large portion of people who get incredibly anxious whenever they have to decide what clothes to wear. Personally I don't particularly like wearing clothes when the temperature climbs above 35 and I cannot imagine many people actually like wearing them, and there is no scientific proof that they are nessesary beyond what is required to keep ourselves warm.

I look forward to your campaign for the abolition of public indecency laws, in order to allow those who want to walk around without any clothes on free themselves of this oppressive authoritarian requirement.

**Yes I am being intentionally obtuse with this, but it isn't that far of a stretch from reading what is on this forum.**

But clothes don't cover up the thing that many people desire to see in every social interaction - the full face.

 

[yorkie]

Oh for god sake! How gradual do you want this? ...

I think the answer is very gradual, with the goalposts constantly moving so it's always "just a few more weeks", and no target figures provided; it's not a logical argument.

So restrictions have caused record alcohol deaths, doubled depression sufferer numbers, exacerbated domestic abuse, increased neglect of other ailments getting diagnosed and more.....

The pro-restriction brigade don't really care about those things. They don't want to admit the average age of a Covid death is around 82 either. Their arguments are emotive ones, based on fear, rather than rationality.

I am aware of a not insignificant number of people who find the requirements to cover their nether regions in public a restriction. I am also aware of a very large portion of people who get incredibly anxious whenever they have to decide what clothes to wear. Personally I don't particularly like wearing clothes when the temperature climbs above 35 and I cannot imagine many people actually like wearing them, and there is no scientific proof that they are nessesary beyond what is required to keep ourselves warm.

I look forward to your campaign for the abolition of public indecency laws, in order to allow those who want to walk around without any clothes on free themselves of this oppressive authoritarian requirement.

That's one of the most ludicrous analogies I've ever heard. I am, however, not in the least bit surprised.

Why do you keep insisting on calling it a "rapid removal of restrictions" ?

People with an extreme view sometimes repeat the view on a regular basis with confidence, in the hope that after time, it simply gets accepted.

Are you in denial of the fact this has been four stages over months? Thats a fact a reality you need to acknowledge if you want anyone to take you for anything but a troll.

I've asked them questions and not got answers; I think we have to accept that these questions are not going to get answered. Which is fine; people have every right not to answer questions, but I think the lack of answers to reasonable questions undermines their argument somewhat.

 

[kristiang85]

I am aware of a not insignificant number of people who find the requirements to cover their nether regions in public a restriction. I am also aware of a very large portion of people who get incredibly anxious whenever they have to decide what clothes to wear. Personally I don't particularly like wearing clothes when the temperature climbs above 35 and I cannot imagine many people actually like wearing them, and there is no scientific proof that they are nessesary beyond what is required to keep ourselves warm.

I look forward to your campaign for the abolition of public indecency laws, in order to allow those who want to walk around without any clothes on free themselves of this oppressive authoritarian requirement.

**Yes I am being intentionally obtuse with this, but it isn't that far of a stretch from reading what is on this forum.**

Clothes to maintain decency are very different from covering your two breathing outlets and also many of your visual communication cues (smile, lip reading, etc).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why? Social distancing rules end from 19th?

It isn't obvious what social distancing rules will apply to public transport in Scotland from July 19.
If LNER is obliged to maintain 2m distancing north of Berwick they can't sell the extra capacity.
Other cross-border TOCs may have the same issue.

 

[island]

Is there any news yet on whether those TOCs that still implemented "social distancing" (such as LNER) on their services are going to end that come 19/7?

LNER’s website states that from 19•JLY•21 you may be sat next to someone not from your party.

It isn't obvious what social distancing rules will apply to public transport in Scotland from July 19.
If LNER is obliged to maintain 2m distancing north of Berwick they can't sell the extra capacity.
Other cross-border TOCs may have the same issue.

They can sell it for journeys within England. Many of their services don’t cross the border.

 

[DustyBin]

Here are some interesting statistics from my home city of Newcastle Upon Tyne and London, a city I visit a lot and have just returned home from.

Coronavirus cases in England's cities and large towns - Centre for Cities

Explore the scale of the COVID—19 outbreak in cities and towns from March 2020 — March 2022

www.centreforcities.org

What’s interesting is that mask compliance appears to much higher in Newcastle than it is in London. In the former I can board a busy Metro service or go to the supermarket and more often than not I’m the only person not wearing a mask (I’m exempt). In London mask wearing is very hit and miss and it’s not uncommon to see less than fifty percent compliance on the Underground or train. And yet Newcastle currently has the highest infection rate in the UK (closely followed by neighbouring Sunderland) whereas London’s is much lower. There is some discussion locally (in the North East) as to what’s going on with some blaming a yet to be identified super variant (yawn) and others blaming students (who are concentrated in a small area, plus I’m pretty sure other cities have universities!). My theory however is that we’re playing catch up. Historically infection rates haven’t been particularly high up here so despite a relatively high level of mask (and other NPI) compliance, and a reasonably high vaccine uptake (certainly compared to London) the virus is simply doing what it was always going to do.

Before anybody points out that anecdotes are worthless etc. I’m not presenting this as conclusive evidence of anything. It does however reflect trends seen elsewhere and raises questions as to the effectiveness of masks as an NPI and our ability to control the virus.

 

[bramling]

Here are some interesting statistics from my home city of Newcastle Upon Tyne and London, a city I visit a lot and have just returned home from.

View attachment 99656View attachment 99657

Coronavirus cases in England's cities and large towns - Centre for Cities

Explore the scale of the COVID—19 outbreak in cities and towns from March 2020 — March 2022

www.centreforcities.org

What’s interesting is that mask compliance appears to much higher in Newcastle than it is in London. In the former I can board a busy Metro service or go to the supermarket and more often than not I’m the only person not wearing a mask (I’m exempt). In London mask wearing is very hit and miss and it’s not uncommon to see less than fifty percent compliance on the Underground or train. And yet Newcastle currently has the highest infection rate in the UK (closely followed by neighbouring Sunderland) whereas London’s is much lower. There is some discussion locally (in the North East) as to what’s going on with some blaming a yet to be identified super variant (yawn) and others blaming students (who are concentrated in a small area, plus I’m pretty sure other cities have universities!). My theory however is that we’re playing catch up. Historically infection rates haven’t been particularly high up here so despite a relatively high level of mask (and other NPI) compliance, and a reasonably high vaccine uptake (certainly compared to London) the virus is simply doing what it was always going to do.

Before anybody points out that anecdotes are worthless etc. I’m not presenting this as conclusive evidence of anything. It does however reflect trends seen elsewhere and raises questions as to the effectiveness of masks as a NPI and our ability to control the virus.

We’re in Newcastle at the moment, and high mask use isn’t our observation - mask use on the Metro seems very hit and miss indeed, and social distancing is almost non existent. Perhaps this is a recent change as people have become vaccinated.

 

[notlob.divad]

But clothes don't cover up the thing that many people desire to see in every social interaction - the full face.

Some clothes do exactly what you say they don't.

Many people don't want to see other people's faces, and a further group don't want people to see their face. All we can conclude from this is that there are people, who have different preferences in the seeing and not seeing of faces. Making a law to cover faces not cover faces, or even making no law at all, will not please all the people. Ideally you would leave people to make their own decision. But still you would get people who argue that some who don't cover their face should, and some who do cover their face shouldn't. So what do we conclude. There always has been and always will be arguements about people covering their faces, and maybe it would all be a bit better if we were a little less hostile to the views of others.

That's one of the most ludicrous analogies I've ever heard. I am, however, not in the least bit surprised.

It was supposed to be, I even pointed out in my own post that is was.

 

[Failed Unit]

Our office re-opens from next week, but with face masks required, guess I am working from home still unless forced I am asking HR about people with exemptions.

 

[notlob.divad]

Clothes to maintain decency are very different from covering your two breathing outlets and also many of your visual communication cues (smile, lip reading, etc).

I am not sure why, some people find their nether regions are very effective visual communication tool.

It certainly does appear to be the way that the *Science* intended us to live.

 

[takno]

I am aware of a not insignificant number of people who find the requirements to cover their nether regions in public a restriction. I am also aware of a very large portion of people who get incredibly anxious whenever they have to decide what clothes to wear. Personally I don't particularly like wearing clothes when the temperature climbs above 35 and I cannot imagine many people actually like wearing them, and there is no scientific proof that they are nessesary beyond what is required to keep ourselves warm

Very good. So your message to perhaps a quarter of the population who are struggling with this to a reasonably significant extent is to mock them for their afflictions? Stylish

 

[DustyBin]

We’re in Newcastle at the moment, and high mask use isn’t our observation - mask use on the Metro seems very hit and miss indeed, and social distancing is almost non existent. Perhaps this is a recent change as people have become vaccinated.

It does perhaps depend on when and where you’re travelling. Travelling into the city centre from the suburbs during rush hour I’ve found compliance is very high. Late at night it may be less so. What I will say though is everybody I’ve spoken to can’t wait to take the things off for good!

 

[Failed Unit]

LNER’s website states that from 19•JLY•21 you may be sat next to someone not from your party.


They can sell it for journeys within England. Many of their services don’t cross the border.

Just to add their website says

• Face coverings from 19 July: Stay Covid Aware and keep wearing your face covering as a courtesy to others, especially in busy places.

Which is good news as I no longer need to justify my situation to anyone.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Just to add their website says

• Face coverings from 19 July: Stay Covid Aware and keep wearing your face covering as a courtesy to others, especially in busy places.

Which is good news as I no longer need to justify my situation to anyone.

Courtesy!! what a joke. Courtesy is opening the toilet window after you've used it not covering your breathing hole!!!

 

[notlob.divad]

Very good. So your message to perhaps a quarter of the population who are struggling with this to a reasonably significant extent is to mock them for their afflictions? Stylish

No, if I was mocking anyone, (which I am not) it would be the people who use the unfortunate struggles of small but not insignificant number of people, and massively overhype the size and scale of the problem for their own political agenda. ie doing exactly what they themselves are blaming the media, scientists and politicians for doing, but because it is being done to further their predetermined side of the arguement, they are happy to let it go in a way they wouldn't if the point was being argued from the other side.