Deaths on the line

[Antman]

Another problem for platform screen doors is that they are tailored for a specific design of rolling stock. So if the ones east of Reading were made to match Crossrail trains with 3 doors per car, nothing else could ever stop at those platforms. And as somebody else said, they require either ATO or an accurate manual stop which adds to platform reoccupation time.

I think the fences that have been installed between fast and slow platforms are all that can realistically be done and I suspect they are as much to prevent accidents as suicides.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, they are explicitly to prevent suicides. Accidents prevented (of which there are very few anyway) are a good side effect. They work by providing a very effective psychological barrier.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Colleague of mine was asked to inspect the line last week. He found a body alongside the railway, the severed head of which was in between the running lines. Poor lad has gone sick from the trauma. We lost a driver a couple of years ago after he hit someone. He never recovered from his experience and took retirement on the sick.

Its not a pleasant experience for anyone to go through, and my thoughts go out to those staff members involved. I sincerely hope it doesnt happen to me. Been close, the train before, the one behind, the one coming the other way....

 

[plymothian]

And another one in Devon today; someone found hanged next to the line.

 

[Phil.]

It's not the actuality of a poor person being hit by a train that has such an effect on the service. It's the time taken to get things going again.

 

[Antman]

No, they are explicitly to prevent suicides. Accidents prevented (of which there are very few anyway) are a good side effect. They work by providing a very effective psychological barrier.

Not just suicides there is also the safety issue particularly with buggies and such like. Unfortunately there are still regular suicides on the GWR lines out of Paddington for example despite fences.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not just suicides there is also the safety issue particularly with buggies and such like. Unfortunately there are still regular suicides on the GWR lines out of Paddington for example despite fences.

On the WCML at least they were provided primarily for suicide prevention, Network Rail said so at the time. The safety issue is a side benefit, but it is unlikely they would have been provided were it not for the suicide issue.

FWIW, they also make the station *feel* safer - having a 125mph train pass you at full speed might be exhilarating to some but is scary and oppressive to others.

 

[Antman]

Colleague of mine was asked to inspect the line last week. He found a body alongside the railway, the severed head of which was in between the running lines. Poor lad has gone sick from the trauma. We lost a driver a couple of years ago after he hit someone. He never recovered from his experience and took retirement on the sick.

Its not a pleasant experience for anyone to go through, and my thoughts go out to those staff members involved. I sincerely hope it doesnt happen to me. Been close, the train before, the one behind, the one coming the other way....

I know a BTP officer who has to deal with such things although as he said that's what you expect when you join the emergency services but railway staff shouldn't have to deal with such things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the WCML at least they were provided primarily for suicide prevention, Network Rail said so at the time. The safety issue is a side benefit, but it is unlikely they would have been provided were it not for the suicide issue.

FWIW, they also make the station *feel* safer - having a 125mph train pass you at full speed might be exhilarating to some but is scary and oppressive to others.

Yes they certainly do make stations feel safer, I've cringed at people ambling about near the platform edge totally oblivious to a high speed train approaching.

 

[philthetube]

I hears somewhere Network rail were talking about suing the estates of suicides for the costs incurred. Not really because of the money recovered, but because is some cases it was thought that people would not use the railway as an option to commit suicide if they knew that any money left would not go to their family.

In my opinion anything which saves train staff from going through the trauma of a suicide should be considered.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

there's no statistical basis for idea that there's a post-christmas spike in suicides. I've dug out the figures before, but I believe summer is worse...

We will see by the annual figures if their is an increase in suicides on the railway however it is quite constant. Oh by the way it is nothing to do with politics and if anyone (one has) decides to blame politics they really need to look further into the statistics.

There is, though, a persistent trend towards more deaths (from all causes) occuring in the winter months (any one death is almost twice as probable to occur in January as it is in July):

Number of daily deaths and five year average England and Wales 2014 2015

Office of National Statistics (click to enlarge)

I was wondering if the weather might have something to do with it.

In the cold winter of 2014-15, there was a correlation (deaths from all causes), but in the even colder 2009-10 there was not :

Excess winter deaths and average winter temperature, England and Wales, 1999 - 2015

Office of National Statistics (click to enlarge)

 

[455driver]

I hears somewhere Network rail were talking about suing the estates of suicides for the costs incurred. Not really because of the money recovered, but because is some cases it was thought that people would not use the railway as an option to commit suicide if they knew that any money left would not go to their family.

In my opinion anything which saves train staff from going through the trauma of a suicide should be considered.

They do that in Spain and some other Countries as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes they certainly do make stations feel safer, I've cringed at people ambling about near the platform edge totally oblivious to a high speed train approaching.

DB used to have a rule that trains were not allowed to directly pass platforms at over 200km/h. This was rescinded a number of years ago, I think on conversion of the Hamburg-Berlin line to ICE operation, but only where "footpath style" metal fences were provided. Not as heavyweight as our solution, and no real suicide protection, but something.

I think that if the court case against the Merseyrail guard does not go favourably we may see the concept here - everyone back behind the barriers or there will be no "ding ding". Edit: I suspect when Merseyrail has the new stock they may well go for full PEDs, but this solution is workable where different door positions exist.

A photo can be found about half way down this Wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin–Hamburg_Railway

(This conversion is very interesting as it has many parallels with the WCML upgrade)

Won't work at every station but I certainly could see a benefit in going this way. A further benefit would be that door positions could be marked for different types of stock and passengers could queue to the side as they do at LUL platform edge doors.

 

[QueensCurve]

Not just suicides there is also the safety issue particularly with buggies and such like. Unfortunately there are still regular suicides on the GWR lines out of Paddington for example despite fences.

Would I be correct in believing that Twyford is a blackspot for this?

 

[al78]

There is, though, a persistent trend towards more deaths (from all causes) occuring in the winter months (any one death is almost twice as probable to occur in January as it is in July):

Number of daily deaths and five year average England and Wales 2014 2015
View attachment 25531
Office of National Statistics (click to enlarge)

In the cold winter of 2014-15, there was a correlation (deaths from all causes), but in the even colder 2009-10 there was not :

Excess winter deaths and average winter temperature, England and Wales, 1999 - 2015
View attachment 25532
Office of National Statistics (click to enlarge)

Winter 2014/15 wasn't cold (it is ranked 253rd coldest out of 356 in the Central England Temperature time-series). The graph you link too suggests in recent years an inverse correlation between temperature and excess deaths, this is not surprising as a lot of those deaths are more vulnerable people (the elderly and sick) who are more susceptible to hypothermia. It is not possible to draw any conclusion about suicides and winter temperatures, as they will likely be a small percentage of the total.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subna...provisional--and-2013-14--final-/stb-ewm.html

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Colleague of mine was asked to inspect the line last week. He found a body alongside the railway, the severed head of which was in between the running lines. Poor lad has gone sick from the trauma. We lost a driver a couple of years ago after he hit someone. He never recovered from his experience and took retirement on the sick.

Its not a pleasant experience for anyone to go through, and my thoughts go out to those staff members involved. I sincerely hope it doesnt happen to me. Been close, the train before, the one behind, the one coming the other way....

I've felt suicidal in the past, and may well do again. The impact on drivers though is one reason that if I ever get that low, the railway wouldn't be my method of choice. I think many who do simply don't think they'd be worth getting upset about though.

It's not the actuality of a poor person being hit by a train that has such an effect on the service. It's the time taken to get things going again.

I remember seeing a documentary about Indian railways where the policy was that bodies simply had to be recovered between trains. Thankfully that attitude doesn't seem likely to take hold here.

I hears somewhere Network rail were talking about suing the estates of suicides for the costs incurred. Not really because of the money recovered, but because is some cases it was thought that people would not use the railway as an option to commit suicide if they knew that any money left would not go to their family.

In my opinion anything which saves train staff from going through the trauma of a suicide should be considered.

I really don't like the idea of reducing the value of human life to that.

Ultimately if someone is at rock bottom and determined to end their life there's not a lot that can be done. But in many cases it can be prevented and the railway has been proactive in training staff to recognise vulnerable people and to intervene. Better mental health care long before it gets to that point though is likely to be better. Sadly with budgets being slashed I fear there may be trouble ahead.

 

[Antman]

Would I be correct in believing that Twyford is a blackspot for this?

Quite possibly, I believe the line between Paddington and Reading has the highest suicide rate in the UK? Other than the fencing that has been installed I'm not sure what can realistically be done?

 

[RepTCTC]

I hears somewhere Network rail were talking about suing the estates of suicides for the costs incurred. Not really because of the money recovered, but because is some cases it was thought that people would not use the railway as an option to commit suicide if they knew that any money left would not go to their family.

That strikes me as the very definition of evil... a truly awful thing to do to grieving relatives.

 

[najaB]

That strikes me as the very definition of evil... a truly awful thing to do to grieving relatives.

The point though is to try and act as a disincentive to committing suicide in the first place.

 

[bnm]

I hears somewhere Network rail were talking about suing the estates of suicides for the costs incurred.

Source?

Man in the pub was it?

Not many people who commit suicide are in a particularly good financial state. Often the reason for suicide is money problems. So, if this were true (I very much doubt it is), good luck to Network Rail trying to heartlessly extract money from the estate of the victim and their grieving relatives.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The last thing on the mind of the one who makes the jump will be the impact the jumper will have on other people. Its precisely the lack of attention from others (loneliness, a belief that they dont fit in, or the world would be better off without them) the reason many people jump.

Jumpers like trains. Its fast, its quick and therefore relatively painless in comparison to say jumping off a viaduct and needs far less courage in comparison (not that jumping needs a hell of a lot of courage to actually go through with it in the first place) the fact the remains is a mess of jam, peanut butter and tenderised beef for the best part of a mile up the track, the trauma to the family having to deal with their loss, the staff, and the people on board who may have witnessed it will unfortunately not be given a second thought.

 

[ScouserGirl]

There has been a body found next to the track in Plymouth today too, BTP are treating it as suspicious! But between Reading and Paddington is known to have a lot of suicides on that bit of the line! Also on the WCML Hemel Hampstead is known to have a lot of people commit suicide as that's where they know the trains are at max speed!

 

[tony_mac]

I know there is no malicious intent, but I really don't think advertising "good" locations in public is a sensible thing to do.

http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide

 

[plymothian]

Don't Japanese railways charge as a deterrent?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I know there is no malicious intent, but I really don't think advertising "good" locations in public is a sensible thing to do.

As you say, dont think its a matter of good locations, only those that attract more attempts. You will only hear about the successful attempts as these make the news. The failed attempts dont attract as much attention as the sensationalist impact isnt there for the news reporters. So therefore only the, i hesitate to use the word - good - locations will ever get -ahem, advertised, and unfortunately lead to more attempts in those locations.

People on their own patches will know those locations, but I bet the relative remoteness of the location, the speed of the trains and ease of access will all be common to the majority of those locations. But as Tony puts, lets not broadcast them on here. We dont want to encourage more of it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I know there is no malicious intent, but I really don't think advertising "good" locations in public is a sensible thing to do.

http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide

Suggesting that it is "quick and painless" is probably not a good idea either, especially as in many cases it is neither. As I said before, the most effective prevention is to minimise the number of people who feel like that's the only option. Easier said than done, of course.

 

[sarahj]

Suggesting that it is "quick and painless" is probably not a good idea either, especially as in many cases it is neither. As I said before, the most effective prevention is to minimise the number of people who feel like that's the only option. Easier said than done, of course.

There are also many that fail, but end up with limbs removed.

As for Spadtrap disliking my comment, the issue is there is often very little, or no follow up. So we don't know why many folks try it. The only ones that make the news are the ones like the woman who jumped with her two kids in front of one our trains. But there are spikes at certain times of the year, and yes it is speculation on why. But sitting here looking at my credit card bill from Christmas, you can guess why there might be spikes around now. I've known two people personally that have taken their life, one by train, the other not and have stopped 3 people in my time on the railway from doing so. (one over love, two just over depression). Thankfully barefooted woman walking to the end of the platform at Lewes and a man staring at the tracks at Brighton, are easy spots if your looking. Alas, some look and don't see the signs, as did a security person at Brighton, till I told him to look again. He said train spotter, I said train spotters look at trains, not stare down at the track.

 

[Trog]

He said train spotter, I said train spotters look at trains, not stare down at the track.

The Security Guard then ran over and scared the life out of a poor off duty P-Way Engineer who was miles away thinking about how you don't see many F19 sleepers these days.

 

[najaB]

The Security Guard then ran over and scared the life out of a poor off duty P-Way Engineer who was miles away thinking about how you don't see many F19 sleepers these days.

I'd prefer that happened than it being a suicidal person and nobody did anything.

 

[infobleep]

There are also many that fail, but end up with limbs removed.

As for Spadtrap disliking my comment, the issue is there is often very little, or no follow up. So we don't know why many folks try it. The only ones that make the news are the ones like the woman who jumped with her two kids in front of one our trains. But there are spikes at certain times of the year, and yes it is speculation on why. But sitting here looking at my credit card bill from Christmas, you can guess why there might be spikes around now. I've known two people personally that have taken their life, one by train, the other not and have stopped 3 people in my time on the railway from doing so. (one over love, two just over depression). Thankfully barefooted woman walking to the end of the platform at Lewes and a man staring at the tracks at Brighton, are easy spots if your looking. Alas, some look and don't see the signs, as did a security person at Brighton, till I told him to look again. He said train spotter, I said train spotters look at trains, not stare down at the track.

I heard of one person trying commit suicide at a station which just happened to be closed for engineering works. They then tried another one near by and fortunately were stopped. Not sure if the first one would normally be manned. I don't ever remember seeing people on the platform but there may be staff elsewhere and I don't pass through the station that often.

 

[Trog]

I was once sitting in a Supervisors van discussing the coming nights work, when a Police car drove past very slowly, before reversing back to us. The Policemen asked if we had seen a scruffy depressed/distressed looking man as they were looking for an escaped mental patient, who it was thought was likely to try and commit suicide on the line. The Supervisor told them that he would have a long wait as he had just taken the road, and the next train would not be along for 16 hours. The Police seemed to think this was quite funny and drove off, a few minutes later they jumped on the block roadman as he climbed out of the lineside hedge having placed the possession limit boards and dets.