Deaths on the line

[83G/84D]

There has been a body found next to the track in Plymouth today too, BTP are treating it as suspicious! But between Reading and Paddington is known to have a lot of suicides on that bit of the line! Also on the WCML Hemel Hampstead is known to have a lot of people commit suicide as that's where they know the trains are at max speed!

Tragic event at Plymouth today and not very pleasant details involved which I will not post on here. Thoughts are with everyone affected / involved with the incident.

A bad day all round on the Western with long over running engineering works near Bristol and numerous problems with the infrastructure at various locations during the course of the day.

 

[Mag_seven]

The point though is to try and act as a disincentive to committing suicide in the first place.

I doubt that rational concepts such as "incentives" or "disincentives" really feature in the mindeset of someone who is suicidal.

 

[bb21]

I don't think we can stop people talking about it. The more the subject is discussed, in a civil and sensitive way I might add, hopefully the more society will be willing to face this particular issue, and work together on helping those who need such help through the dark days in their lives.

Some people mentioned charging those who commit suicide on the railway upthread. I really don't think that is a good idea. Give them another kick when they are down? The way I see it is that it is one of the hazards of operating a railway network. What I do find strange is that Delay Repay makes no distinction between the various causes, and I am uneasy with the notion that somehow compensation is due in these cases, either from the TOCs to the passengers, or from Network Rail to the TOCs.

 

[Antman]

Emergency services are currently dealing with an incident at Romford
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think we can stop people talking about it. The more the subject is discussed, in a civil and sensitive way I might add, hopefully the more society will be willing to face this particular issue, and work together on helping those who need such help through the dark days in their lives.

Some people mentioned charging those who commit suicide on the railway upthread. I really don't think that is a good idea. Give them another kick when they are down? The way I see it is that it is one of the hazards of operating a railway network. What I do find strange is that Delay Repay makes no distinction between the various causes, and I am uneasy with the notion that somehow compensation is due in these cases, either from the TOCs to the passengers, or from Network Rail to the TOCs.

I guess it is up to each individual whether they claim delay repay after a suicide incident, I certainly wouldn't.

 

[ScouserGirl]

Tragic event at Plymouth today and not very pleasant details involved which I will not post on here. Thoughts are with everyone affected / involved with the incident.

A bad day all round on the Western with long over running engineering works near Bristol and numerous problems with the infrastructure at various locations during the course of the day.

i know from what I heard it wasn't very nice,I hope everyone involved is okay, I saw the over running works near Bristol, hopefully gwr have a better day tomorrow

 

[najaB]

I doubt that rational concepts such as "incentives" or "disincentives" really feature in the mindeset of someone who is suicidal.

Obviously each case is different, but many people who are considering suicide will be of the mindset 'it doesn't make a difference if I was alive or dead, everyone would be better off if I was't here'

Knowing that their suicide will leave their family with a debt might be enough to just tip the balance back in the direction of life.

 

[Antman]

Obviously each case is different, but many people who are considering suicide will be of the mindset 'it doesn't make a difference if I was alive or dead, everyone would be better off if I was't here'

Knowing that their suicide will leave their family with a debt might be enough to just tip the balance back in the direction of life.

I suppose it could work the other way too, if the person blames their family for their plight they might think landing them with a bill will be getting some sort of revenge. Quite honestly I don't think the idea is viable.

 

[ComUtoR]

The way I see it is that it is one of the hazards of operating a railway network.

Not sure where I stand on that. Should an employee accept that or should employees be protected ?

I think railway is taking the right approach at the moment, at least internally. Signage is subtle enough to not be intrusive and they are well situated. I believe there is also going to or may already be a trial of the "blue lights" that are used in Japan.

What I do find strange is that Delay Repay makes no distinction between the various causes, and I am uneasy with the notion that somehow compensation is due in these cases, either from the TOCs to the passengers, or from Network Rail to the TOCs.

And I'm glad it doesn't make any distinction. A blanket 30 minutes removes complications from an already stupidly complicated system. By placing any figure on suicide does begin to monetise it. We need to remember that a suicide on the track still affects those on the train. A pregnant mother on their way to the hospital or a a businessman on their way to make a multi million pound deal are both treated equally irrespective of the delay cause.

It is still a choice to claim or not. To have that moral choice forced upon others makes me equally uneasy.

 

[bb21]

Not sure where I stand on that. Should an employee accept that or should employees be protected ?

I think railway is taking the right approach at the moment, at least internally. Signage is subtle enough to not be intrusive and they are well situated. I believe there is also going to or may already be a trial of the "blue lights" that are used in Japan.

It's just one of those things. I think all railway staff accept that there is always a small risk they could encounter it. What is important to me is that there is an appropriate support structure in place in the aftermath, and appropriate steps are taken to make it more difficult to commit suicide on the network (although what constitutes appropriate will likely vary by person, and it has to be balanced against cost implications, making it a shade of grey somewhere along the line).

And I'm glad it doesn't make any distinction. A blanket 30 minutes removes complications from an already stupidly complicated system. By placing any figure on suicide does begin to monetise it. We need to remember that a suicide on the track still affects those on the train. A pregnant mother on their way to the hospital or a a businessman on their way to make a multi million pound deal are both treated equally irrespective of the delay cause.

It is still a choice to claim or not. To have that moral choice forced upon others makes me equally uneasy.

**** happens. That's life. People get inconvenienced by all sorts of things in life. I don't see why railway travel is different.

For factors within the industry's control, it simultaneously acts as a disincentive.

I am not saying it is wrong, just not a concept I am comfortable with.

 

[JW16]

Unfortunately we had the scenario at Liverpool Street this evening where announcements were made that "emergency services are dealing with an incident at Romford", implying that something (could be anything) is being dealt with, and perhaps might be resolved relatively soon. It's only because I know from this forum that that phrase means a fatality and left to find an alternative route. Many others would have been left on the concourse with uncertainty and doubtless would've been left waiting for longer than necessary.

 

[ComUtoR]

@bb21

You have me at Hmmmmm.

We do accept the risk and I know too many colleges who have gone through the trauma. Not all of them are still driving today.

 

[najaB]

Quite honestly I don't think the idea is viable.

I don't personally agree with it, but can see the logic behind it.

 

[stevescan]

I remember several colleagues as well when driving for Manchester Metrolink, some were quite pragmatic and carried on driving afterwards, some did not, me I was lucky apart from being asked to detrain my passengers once and meet an oncoming service who thought he had hit someone and did not want to look himself, I was never involved in a fatality but it is an harrowing experience for everyone.

 

[TDK]

Although it is extremely traumatic for drivers and guards the unions since the demise of the criminal injuries payment being scrapped have informed their members that they have no responsibility to walk back to check the line and also it is now a drivers choice whether to go forward to inspect the line after a suspected fatality so there is a form of protection in place for drivers and guards. If I had one I certainly wouldn't walk back to see if I had killed the person I would leave that up to the people who are qualified to do so.

To add many fatalities have to go to court with a judge and jury to ascertain whether it was in fact suicide and the main reason for this is the claiming of the life insurance believe it or not as most life insurance policies quote the payment is void if the death is a suicide, you would no believe some of crap that come from the judge in these cases.

 

[fowler9]

Obviously each case is different, but many people who are considering suicide will be of the mindset 'it doesn't make a difference if I was alive or dead, everyone would be better off if I was't here'

Knowing that their suicide will leave their family with a debt might be enough to just tip the balance back in the direction of life.

Mate just no. As someone who has been suicidal I really don't think making someone think their family would have to pay costs would be either effective or morally right for the family. Talk about pushing someone further in to a corner. You are talking like the suicidal person is thinking rationally.

 

[najaB]

You are talking like the suicidal person is thinking rationally.

As I said in my later post, I don't agree with it but see the logic that might have gone into the suggestion.

 

[feline1]

What I do find strange is that Delay Repay makes no distinction between the various causes, and I am uneasy with the notion that somehow compensation is due in these cases, either from the TOCs to the passengers, or from Network Rail to the TOCs.

It is due because passengers paid for a service and they didn't receive it. That's the risk any business runs when providing a service.

You seem to be thinking along the lines of "but why should the TOC/NR pay, it wasn't their fault!" but neither was it the passenger's fault!! The TOC still took their money, though.

Seriously, this point was never better explored than in the Fawlty Tower's episode "Waldorf Salad", probably the definite essay on Customer Service yet written
Indeed, there's an exchange between John Cleese and the wonderful Bruce Boa which is pretty much verbatim this whole concept. #OrderTenTaxis,I'llPayFor'em!

 

[SB48188]

Another one this morning unfortunately at Prestbury between Macclesfield and Cheadle Hulme. The train (cross country) was still standing on the down line on the bridge over Bonis Hall Lane just outside Prestbury tunnel being attended by a fire engine and rail workers when I passed by at 11.30 this morning, nearly 3 hours after the incident.

Awful situation for all concerned

 

[furnessvale]

Another one this morning unfortunately at Prestbury between Macclesfield and Cheadle Hulme. The train (cross country) was still standing on the down line on the bridge over Bonis Hall Lane just outside Prestbury tunnel being attended by a fire engine and rail workers when I passed by at 11.30 this morning, nearly 3 hours after the incident.

Awful situation for all concerned

Sad as it is for all concerned, it is quite unacceptable for a major railway line to still be blocked in this way after 3 hours.

A few years ago I was on a train which had a suicide under it. We arrived in Hoek van Holland 10 minutes late.

The Highways Agency has set up patrols on our motorways with the express purpose of clearing up accidents and getting the traffic moving quickly. Why do we insist on different standards for our railways?

 

[SB48188]

Sad as it is for all concerned, it is quite unacceptable for a major railway line to still be blocked in this way after 3 hours.

A few years ago I was on a train which had a suicide under it. We arrived in Hoek van Holland 10 minutes late.

The Highways Agency has set up patrols on our motorways with the express purpose of clearing up accidents and getting the traffic moving quickly. Why do we insist on different standards for our railways?

I should add that the Up line was back in operation by that time but the unit involved was still where it stopped about 1KM from Prestbury station

 

[ScouserGirl]

Sad as it is for all concerned, it is quite unacceptable for a major railway line to still be blocked in this way after 3 hours.

A few years ago I was on a train which had a suicide under it. We arrived in Hoek van Holland 10 minutes late.

The Highways Agency has set up patrols on our motorways with the express purpose of clearing up accidents and getting the traffic moving quickly. Why do we insist on different standards for our railways?

Its hard on the railway as some places are out of the way and its not so easy to clear up a body from under a train :/ and its a crime scene as well because not all people who are hit by a train are suicide.

Yes 3 hours is a long time to keep the track shut for but you also have to make sure the driver is in the right frame of mind as well as what he or she has just witnessed isn't pleasant.

But with this country failing in Mental Health and also all the cuts being made and people in debt unfortunately more people will start to think suicide is the only way to go its really sad..

 

[essexjohn]

Obviously each case is different, but many people who are considering suicide will be of the mindset 'it doesn't make a difference if I was alive or dead, everyone would be better off if I was't here'

Knowing that their suicide will leave their family with a debt might be enough to just tip the balance back in the direction of life.

If such a claim were legally enforceable, it could only be made against the estate left by the deceased (before distribution to beneficiaries). Family / beneficiaries might therefore receive less they otherwise would have but will never be responsible for any debt.

 

[SPADTrap]

Sad as it is for all concerned, it is quite unacceptable for a major railway line to still be blocked in this way after 3 hours.

A few years ago I was on a train which had a suicide under it. We arrived in Hoek van Holland 10 minutes late.

The Highways Agency has set up patrols on our motorways with the express purpose of clearing up accidents and getting the traffic moving quickly. Why do we insist on different standards for our railways?

Low post of the day.

 

[Bookd]

Although not always relevant in a single or double track situation the delay issue reflects a cultural change in what is acceptable to both passengers and staff. If you look at pictures of the Harrow and Wealdstone disaster from the 1950s, when two expresses and a commuter train were involved in a huge pile up, services continued via the tracks and platforms which were not obstructed while bodies were still being removed from the wreckage on the other side. If this happened now the whole area would be closed as a crime scene for weeks.
I do not express a view as to which is right or wrong.

 

[furnessvale]

Low post of the day.

On the contrary these matters need to be discussed.

Just how long a delay do YOU believe is acceptable?

Some, including trades unions who should know better, have called for any coach involved in a fatal rail accident to be scrapped rather than rebuilt if possible. Some have even called for whole trains to be scrapped in such circumstances.

How far do we go in showing respect? Perhaps any railway line where a fatality has occurred should be permanently closed as a sign of respect?

Yes, we need to show respect but, at the end of the day life must go on.

 

[sarahj]

Many reasons why it can take a while to clear up.

Body not in once piece
Damage to the train. A direct hit by a big bird can disable a train. I've known of bodies doing through the windscreen, and even on trains that have them, the corridor connection.
Investigation. Not all bodies hit by trains are suicides. One of our trains hit someone near Crawley that was already dead.
Clean up. When you have seen blood on a canopy of a station after a one under you know it was not a straight forward clean up.

Note, most car crashes happen at lower speeds as well. When a car crashes at 125mph, the clean up takes a while. Yes, minor shunts on the road are cleared up, but when there are deaths and major damage, can take a while. Fires etc and thus damage to the road surface have closed roads like the M1 and M25 for over 24hrs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sad as it is for all concerned, it is quite unacceptable for a major railway line to still be blocked in this way after 3 hours.

A few years ago I was on a train which had a suicide under it. We arrived in Hoek van Holland 10 minutes late.

The Highways Agency has set up patrols on our motorways with the express purpose of clearing up accidents and getting the traffic moving quickly. Why do we insist on different standards for our railways?

The train needed attention before it could proceed.

 

[Antman]

Low post of the day.

Not at all, he makes perfectly valid points:roll:

 

[SB48188]

Many reasons why it can take a while to clear up.

Body not in once piece
Damage to the train. A direct hit by a big bird can disable a train. I've known of bodies doing through the windscreen, and even on trains that have them, the corridor connection.
Investigation. Not all bodies hit by trains are suicides. One of our trains hit someone near Crawley that was already dead.
Clean up. When you have seen blood on a canopy of a station after a one under you know it was not a straight forward clean up.

Note, most car crashes happen at lower speeds as well. When a car crashes at 125mph, the clean up takes a while. Yes, minor shunts on the road are cleared up, but when there are deaths and major damage, can take a while. Fires etc and thus damage to the road surface have closed roads like the M1 and M25 for over 24hrs.

Having unfortunately been an eye witness to such an event about 15 years ago where someone on the platform I was waiting on hopped off the edge in front of a train doing 80mph (as BTP later told me) I can attest to the fact that the clean up isn't always as simple as some people might assume. Grim.

 

[Steveoh]

The train needed attention before it could proceed.

I was on this train. It was harrowing and very sensitively dealt with. At the end of the day I am going home and somebody else is not. The train crew deserve enormous respect. These jobs should not be rushed. There needs to be dignity. Passengers were not on the whole complaining of the delay. Many passengers took time to thank the guard for his attitude and handling of the incident when we arrived at Manchester. I could go into details of why it takes time to get service running again having witnessed it first hand today but I won't.

In summary it was all dealt with quickly with compassion as it should be.