Derailment in Kent between Ashford and Canterbury (26/07)

[Carlisle]

Bit concerning that it knocked out the radio, given that's a time when you really would need it.

Is it considered appropriate in these type of circumstances to try and make an emergency call using the radio in another/rear cab or would that waste too much time before carrying out protection duties

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread is not for a discussion about the rights and wrong of DOO or a soap box for those on either side of the debate to try and advance their views. I have deleted a few posts and edited a few others that were off-topic any further off-topic posts will be deleted.

 

[talldave]

Apologies if this seems a stupid question, but do the detonators carried on trains have a "best before" date? You may hope to have to never use them but when you do, lives may depend on them still working as expected.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I recall posts on here about staff having fun destroying the expired ones

 

[Monty]

I think what this incident does show is that GSM-R is no way near as robust as people may think it is. I have had an incident a few years ago where my driver had to make an emergency application of the brakes when a signal which was displaying a proceed aspect went back on him. The sheer force of the train stopping suddenly caused the TMS and the GSM-R radio to shut down, and despite several attempts to get the train rebooted nothing seemed to work. The driver in the end had to limp the unit to the next station in 'restrictive drive' and a fitter had to be called out to rectify the problem. In the end there was no real risk to anyone and the only inconvenience for the passengers was a delayed journey, however if it had been serious the quickest way of raising the alarm would be to get trackside and lay down your TCOCs. You could then think about using a mobile phone to call the relevant people but that's providing you have a signal and even in this day and age there are large parts of the the network that receive no coverage. So you only option is to go for a long walk with dets tucked under one arm and a red flag in the other. Emergency protection is still very much a relevant procedure despite all the advancements in technology.

 

[Carlisle]

Apologies if this seems a stupid question, but do the detonators carried on trains have a "best before" date? You may hope to have to never use them but when you do, lives may depend on them still working as expected.

Yes the colours of detonators are periodically changed to make it easy to identify expired ones , I'm sure plenty on here can say how long they last as I can't remember

 

[SPADTrap]

Apologies if this seems a stupid question, but do the detonators carried on trains have a "best before" date? You may hope to have to never use them but when you do, lives may depend on them still working as expected.

They do, I can't remember how long they last but its definitely an expense to replace them at the intervals they require.

 

[notadriver]

I don't know if this is irrelevant but this could be the last opportunity to ride non stop between Ashford and St Pancras due to the diversions. The 1703, 1803 and 1903 will all run non stop from Ashford to St Pancras in just 32 minutes a booked average of 105 mph. If a clear run is given a 30 minute run is possible.

 

[tsr]

They do, I can't remember how long they last but its definitely an expense to replace them at the intervals they require.

IIRC they last about 5 years and all mainline stock should have their dets checked every September. Can dig out my exam papers to check if need be...

 

[SPADTrap]

IIRC they last about 5 years and all mainline stock should have their dets checked every September. Can dig out my exam papers to check if need be...

That certainly sounds familiar TSR!

 

[reb0118]

one particular community

Pikeys perchance?

 

[rf_ioliver]

I think what this incident does show is that GSM-R is no way near as robust as people may think it is..

Help me out here...what exactly happened? I'm fairly certain GSM-R DIDN'T fail, it is a fairly robust system, but rather the 'phone' in the cab suffered damage. I've heard that the power supply was disconnected (meaning battery backup) which sounds more like a manufacturing error or just being plain unlucky than a GSM-R failure.

t

Ian

 

[455driver]

GSM-R had the potential to be a fantastic system if they had built on the success of the CSR but of course they had to try and reinvent the wheel and did away with a lot of the good things on CSR (area codes for one).

Now you can make an emergency call, do all the correct things before finding out you are talking to the wrong signalbox/signaller which just wastes time, whereas on CSR you knew who you were going to talk to before lifting the handset!

Okay the red button would ensure all trains were stopped (a good thing) but other things are a backward step.

On GSM-R all head units can be used to make a call, so if the front unit packs up you can use one in a another cab assuming the driver/ somebody else is available to do so, lets remember the driving cab is the crumple zone so it is possible for the driver to be incapacitated/ unable to get out if the train hits something reasonably solid.
The was an incident a few years ago where somebody jumped off a bridge hit the front of the train between the headlight and windscreen and that was enough force to push the front of the cab in rendering the driving desk unusable, if a human body can do that imagine if it was something concrete!

 

[A-driver]

GSM-R had the potential to be a fantastic system if they had built on the success of the CSR but of course they had to try and reinvent the wheel and did away with a lot of the good things on CSR (area codes for one).



Now you can make an emergency call, do all the correct things before finding out you are talking to the wrong signalbox/signaller which just wastes time, whereas on CSR you knew who you were going to talk to before lifting the handset!



Okay the red button would ensure all trains were stopped (a good thing) but other things are a backward step.



On GSM-R all head units can be used to make a call, so if the front unit packs up you can use one in a another cab assuming the driver/ somebody else is available to do so, lets remember the driving cab is the crumple zone so it is possible for the driver to be incapacitated/ unable to get out if the train hits something reasonably solid.

The was an incident a few years ago where somebody jumped off a bridge hit the front of the train between the headlight and windscreen and that was enough force to push the front of the cab in rendering the driving desk unusable, if a human body can do that imagine if it was something concrete!

The GSMR Red button 'railway emregency group call' is a bit of a sticking point. We have. Issues at a certain location where we stray into a signal box on a completely different line to ours. Some trains start here and so it makes it impossible to set the radio up. ASLEF made a big fuss as we said that if a call to the signaller goes to the wrong box it means we may not actually receive the correct emergancy call if there is a block on our own line. NR insisted that there was no fault and that the emerg. Call would be fully functioning but since a few more issues (trains trying to reach kings x signal box are coming through to Tottenham, Willesden or West Hampstead) NR have admitted that the emergancy call won't actually come through if the train picks up a stray cell from another box. But as you says with no area code you can't tell until you try to call them.

 

[carriageline]

The GSMR faults are perfectly fixable, I've personally reported a few and they have been sorted.

I know you do, but any GSMR error should be reported to the signaller. We have a specific form that gets sent off to the people that look after the GSMR (Stoke TEC), and the fault gets looked into. Even more so when they start getting delay minutes for it.

I know a lot of drivers do report it, but at my old location I a cab ride where a driver had a moan about a GSMR black spot/routing to the wrong box.

We was never told about it, subsequently reported it and it was fixed a few months later (I believe the correct mast needed its power turning up, or so the fault system told me!)

 

[redbutton]

Out of interest, what would happen to a driver if he stops within the 1.25 miles before reaching the incident train? Would they then proceed forward at cautionary speed ready to stop, or would they just sit there and wait for somebody from the other train to come to them?

The rulebook says that upon exploding dets you are to stop immediately and contact the signaller. You then can't move the train until you get the signaller's authority.

 

[Ploughman]

Have they recovered the unit yet?
Was the Crane used or not?

 

[Cletus]

The line re-opens early tomorrow.

Some pictures of new track on Southeastern's twitter feed.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was the track damaged that bad or is it just standard procedure to replace the track after any incidents like that?

 

[N Levers]

1Z99 ex St Leonards has just passed Rye.

 

[theageofthetra]

Is it correct the Hastings Diesel motor coaches are being used or just a 'wibble' rumour?

 

[user15681]

Have they recovered the unit yet?
Was the Crane used or not?

The first carriage of 375703 was re-railed finally late on Monday evening, with help from the crane indeed. 375703 and 375612 were then hauled forward to Canterbury West sidings by 66723.

1Z99, believed formed of two Hastings DMU power cars, are on their way to Canterbury West now to haul the units forward to Ramsgate.

 

[yorksrob]

1Z99, believed formed of two Hastings DMU power cars, are on their way to Canterbury West now to haul the units forward to Ramsgate.

I hope someone gets a photo of that !

 

[alxndr]

I presume it's standard to deploy dets even though the carriages that had not been derailed would be keeping that track circuit section showing occupied anyway?

 

[Bald Rick]

Was the track damaged that bad or is it just standard procedure to replace the track after any incidents like that?

Yes it was that bad, a quarter mile of it damaged beyond repair.

 

[Lockwood]

Question from the uninitiated, but how come a train v cow impact can cause that much damage to track?
Is it force along the length of the train as it is going, or would it have been running derailed for that distance before coming to a stand?

 

[hwl]

Question from the uninitiated, but how come a train v cow impact can cause that much damage to track?
Is it force along the length of the train as it is going, or would it have been running derailed for that distance before coming to a stand?

The later - running derailed for that distance before coming to a stand

 

[GatwickDepress]

The first carriage of 375703 was re-railed finally late on Monday evening, with help from the crane indeed. 375703 and 375612 were then hauled forward to Canterbury West sidings by 66723.

1Z99, believed formed of two Hastings DMU power cars, are on their way to Canterbury West now to haul the units forward to Ramsgate.

Darn, such a pity I was in Newhaven today, or else I would've gone on a little pilgrimage! No chance of a return trip tomorrow?

 

[TheJRB]

I hope someone gets a photo of that !

I didn't get a photo of it with the 375s but I managed to get a video of the two power cars coming up the Marshlink. Admittedly a long way from being the best footage in the world but here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_gF-yBRPbI.

 

[user15681]

Darn, such a pity I was in Newhaven today, or else I would've gone on a little pilgrimage! No chance of a return trip tomorrow?

Not aware of the return plan yet. 1001 with 375703 and 375612 at standard 5mph back to Ramsgate as I type - currently between Sturry and Minster.

5Z50 Tonbridge - Canterbury West - Tonbridge should check the line is okay later.