Do I have any right to keep my train ticket after the journey?

[BRX]

Generally if you put your ticket through a gate at the end of a journey the machine eats it. If for whatever reason I want to keep my ticket I'll show it to a member of staff and they'll let me through the gate manually. Usually they don't seem to mind but today a guy was a bit grumpy with me. I said I wanted to keep it for claiming expenses and he said I should use the reciept I got when I bought it.

I'm just curious really: is a used ticket "mine" or is a TOC entitled to demand that I surrender it?

 

[LexyBoy]

The ticket remains the property of the railway. The vast majority of staff will let you keep it though (sometimes after marking as used).

Cue the usual to-ing and fro-ing about whether the railway or employers should relent in the "keeping tickets for expenses" game

 

[gordonthemoron]

only ever had this request refused once, at Liverpool Central

 

[Greenback]

There is no right to keep the tickets, they remain the property of the railway. I've had no problems whatsoever when I've asked to retain mine.

In my view the tickets remaining the property of the railway is only there to be enforced in certain circumstances. One example is when the now defunct Thames Trains instructed us to retain expired season tickets that were being renewed at a discount for auditing purposes.

 

[pemma]

If your ticket says Manchester CTLZ as the destination you are entitled to keep it leaving central Manchester stations even if the contracted RPIs at Victoria say otherwise.

 

[TheEdge]

There is no right to the ticket. At no point is the ticket actually yours (I think the same applies to railcards as well). Its the little rule that allows railstaff to confiscate them when necessary and also to write, stamp or punch them, otherwise we would technically be causing intentional damage to someone elses property (in an incredibly technical sense)

In reality though you would be very unlucky to find someone who outright refused.

 

[bb21]

Expenses is not the only reason why a passenger may want to keep hold of the ticket.

They may need it as evidence for a journey which they need to write to customer service about, in respect of, for example, delays.

Not allowing a passenger to keep hold of the ticket under these circumstances would be extremely harsh.

 

[cuccir]

Presumably you have a right to keep any receipts (even where these are printed on ticket stock)?

 

[westv]

I don't seem to be a victim of ticket consumption. Whenever I've used AP tickets at KX the barrier has always given me the ticket back - EC and HT tickets.

 

[bb21]

King's Cross barriers will give London Terminals tickets back, due to further validity through to Moorgate for the vast majority of them, similar to the arrangement at Waterloo.

 

[westv]

King's Cross barriers will give London Terminals tickets back, due to further validity through to Moorgate for the vast majority of them, similar to the arrangement at Waterloo.

That applies to HT only tickets too? I'm sure I've tried EC tickets in the LU barriers at Kings X in the past but they never work. I use print at home now anyway so I know they won't work.

 

[bb21]

The gates probably won't be able to tell the difference. Even if they could, they might not bother programming in all the different routings that should be rejected.

Easier to just spit them all back out.

 

[westv]

The gates probably won't be able to tell the difference. Even if they could, they might not bother programming in all the different routings that should be rejected.

Easier to just spit them all back out.

Sometimes I wished they would eat the relevant ones as I kept ending up with a pocket full of used tickets that I really knew I should throw away but never got round to!

 

[furlong]

I'm just curious really: is a used ticket "mine" or is a TOC entitled to demand that I surrender it?

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage make clear that the ticket provides evidence of the contract and "a ticket is your evidence of your right to make a rail journey". If a train company insists on taking away from you your only evidence for the existence of the contract, then you should in turn insist that they provide some alternative documentary form of evidence of that contact in case you should later wish to prove the existence of the contract.

 

[Flamingo]

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage make clear that the ticket provides evidence of the contract and "a ticket is your evidence of your right to make a rail journey". If a train company insists on taking away from you your only evidence for the existence of the contract, then you should in turn insist that they provide some alternative documentary form of evidence of that contact in case you should later wish to prove the existence of the contract.

You can (and probably should) always request a receipt at the point of sale. This is yours, to do with what you will.

The ticket is the railways, to keep when the journey is complete if they so wish.

 

[BRX]

You can (and probably should) always request a receipt at the point of sale. This is yours, to do with what you will.

The ticket is the railways, to keep when the journey is complete if they so wish.

But a receipt would never be accepted by a ticket inspector as "evidence of a contract". And if you want to make a complaint about a journey/wrongly sold tickets/delay comepnsation they usually ask for your actual tickets as evidence that you paid for and made the journey.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

But a receipt would never be accepted by a ticket inspector as "evidence of a contract". And if you want to make a complaint about a journey/wrongly sold tickets/delay comepnsation they usually ask for your actual tickets as evidence that you paid for and made the journey.

You are correct in saying that the ticket is the evidence of Contract, and the receipt alone is not adequate assurance of permission to travel, but the receipt (properly printed with reference numbers, place, date and time (of the journey and of the printing) - and maybe even the buyer's name) will normally be adequte to identify a specific journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But a receipt would never be accepted by a ticket inspector as "evidence of a contract". And if you want to make a complaint about a journey/wrongly sold tickets/delay comepnsation they usually ask for your actual tickets as evidence that you paid for and made the journey.

If the journey is complete, no inspector would need to see it from that point on. If there is genuine reason for holding the ticket, Delay Repay for example, the railway will allow you to keep the ticket long enough to deal with that.

If, for good reason, the railway wishes to withdraw the ticket during your journey, they are required to provide a receipt (usually a travel document to complete your journey) in line with NRCoC condition 20.

 

[fandroid]

Very occasionally, I make two return trips in a single day from Basingstoke to London. If I buy a one day Travelcard for the first journey then I'm keen to hang on to it for use within London during the second trip.

Also, I often keep my tickets for travel expenses claims. The tickets provide all the journey details that the finance folk like. A receipt is proof of expenditure at a given station on a given date, but could be for any old jolly that I indulged in, or even for a ticket I bought for someone else!

They are rightly anxious about taxi receipts, as they normally have zero information on them, except the sum (invented by the rider?) and the date.

 

[oddiesjack]

The ticket remains the property of the railway.

Yes, but which specific part of "the railway" owns my ticket?

The TOC who manages my departure station?
The TOC who manages my destination station?
The TOC who provided a part of my journey?
The organisation I bought the ticket from, either a TOC or a ticket seller like TheTrainLine?
The TOC who operate the TOD machine from which I collect my ticket?
Network Rail?
BRPB (Residuary Body) ?

 

[Flamingo]

Very occasionally, I make two return trips in a single day from Basingstoke to London. If I buy a one day Travelcard for the first journey then I'm keen to hang on to it for use within London during the second trip.

Also, I often keep my tickets for travel expenses claims. The tickets provide all the journey details that the finance folk like. A receipt is proof of expenditure at a given station on a given date, but could be for any old jolly that I indulged in, or even for a ticket I bought for someone else!

They are rightly anxious about taxi receipts, as they normally have zero information on them, except the sum (invented by the rider?) and the date.

u
Without being too blunt, your employers audit trail is not the railways problem.

 

[LexyBoy]

Without being too blunt, your employers audit trail is not the railways problem.

Alternatively, the railway's stubbornness is not the employer's problem. If an employer were having problems with rail tickets and expenses, they may find an alternative transport solution, just as they would for problematic suppliers.

Employers shouldn't require staff to keep tickets if this is not actually an entitlement, but employees typically can't do much about this (except to drive if feasible). As usual, it's the little person in the middle who [has a small chance of] getting stuffed by this. Railway demands ticket back, employer refuses to pay for travel.

As for receipts - a proper receipt (showing the journey details) is usually only available from ticket offices, and that won't satisfy paranoid finance departments as it doesn't prove the ticket claimed was used (and not exchanged for a cheaper ticket).

 

[island]

u
Without being too blunt, your employers audit trail is not the railways problem.

Precisely. HMRC does not require original tickets to support expenses, before someone else brings up that canard.

This thread comes up a few times a year and the answer is that tickets are the property of the railway. End of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very occasionally, I make two return trips in a single day from Basingstoke to London. If I buy a one day Travelcard for the first journey then I'm keen to hang on to it for use within London during the second trip.

AIUI that is not valid. The Travelcard dies on completion of the return journey.

Neil

 

[Crossover]

AIUI that is not valid. The Travelcard dies on completion of the return journey.

Neil

I seem to recall from a previous thread that isn't the case, and whilst the out/return portions are used, the travelcard remains valid for the remainder of the day

 

[LexyBoy]

Here's the thread and the relevant quote from Knowledgebase courtesy of greatkingrat:

On completion of the return journey Out-boundary Day Travelcards are not valid for further journeys into the Travelcard area. However, customers may, upon request, retain their ticket for further journeys that are wholly within Fare Zones 1-6 only (or Zones 1-9 if the ticket includes additional availability in Zones 7-9) and on the day for which the ticket is valid. They may also be retained for travel on permitted London Bus services that operate outside the London Fare Zones area. Details of available bus services are published by Transport for London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I stand corrected.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Also, I often keep my tickets for travel expenses claims. The tickets provide all the journey details that the finance folk like. A receipt is proof of expenditure at a given station on a given date, but could be for any old jolly that I indulged in, or even for a ticket I bought for someone else!....

The receipts from my Star machine at work (and the FasTis machine before it) are itemised, they show the origin and destination, date of travel, individual ticket cost and, IIRC, ticket number of each ticket issued in the transaction. I wonder which came first, the railway's entitlement to keep their own property, or the current expenses claim procedures for each company that requires the ticket.

 

[Hadders]

I regularly have to submit expenses claims to my employer. When I buy a ticket at the station I ask for an itemised receipt. This is a receipt which prints details of the ticket issued and the amount paid. It's printed on a paper receipt rather than orange ticket stock and I've had no issues with my employer.

There's no need to submit the actual ticket - in any case it isn't a receipt!

 

[bb21]

I have noticed that more and more ticket offices are printing itemised receipts for ticket purchases, which is a long-overdue improvement to the system. Now we just need the same to happen to TVMs.

That said, I still fail to understand the stubbornness of some staff who insist on taking away used tickets. If the concern is that the ticket might be reused, then simple and appropriate actions can be taken to ensure that this cannot happen. What is the point of insisting on printing extra pieces of paper when the perceived problems can be easily rectified without the industry really needing to do anything? It is not even as if the collected tickets are properly recycled in many cases. (Yes, I understand they are only doing their job before anyone brings it up, but common sense says that course of action is not really necessary.) Tickets that people do not wish to keep can still be collected, and those that are required can be kept by the passenger which in turns saves the cost in printing the extra pieces of paper otherwise needed.