Do I have any right to keep my train ticket after the journey?

[SickyNicky]

Very occasionally, I make two return trips in a single day from Basingstoke to London. If I buy a one day Travelcard for the first journey then I'm keen to hang on to it for use within London during the second trip.

If you need to do this, you would probably be better off buying a Boundary Zone 6 to Basingstoke ticket for the additional journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... If the concern is that the ticket might be reused, then simple and appropriate actions can be taken to ensure that this cannot happen. ...

Simpler than passengers getting receipts and the railway retaining the tickets? Any suggestions?

 

[bb21]

Give each gateline assistant a pen. Endorse ticket "fully used" and tear the ticket in two over the magstripe for anyone asking to keep the ticket. Job done. No receipt required. No need to equip ticket offices with separate printers or program the machines to do so.

(Other options also available.)

 

[Merseysider]

I think a big fat VOID should do the trick.

 

[455driver]

I think a big fat VOID should do the trick.

Which could mean that the ticket has been cancelled unused!
Used would work much better.

 

[Deerfold]

As for receipts - a proper receipt (showing the journey details) is usually only available from ticket offices, and that won't satisfy paranoid finance departments as it doesn't prove the ticket claimed was used (and not exchanged for a cheaper ticket).

It may not cover all eventualities but I find that when I buy online all the ticket details (including, most importantly, the price paid) are available too.

Do many organisations worry about the ticket being exchanged for a cheaper ticket? I can't see that being a common one.

 

[Starmill]

Oh my goodness. This debate. AGAIN?

 

[drbdrb]

If, for good reason, the railway wishes to withdraw the ticket during your journey, they are required to provide a receipt (usually a travel document to complete your journey) in line with NRCoC condition 20.

Until I have passed through the gateline I have not completed my journey. Therefore that means if the railway wants to keep my ticket at the gateline they must give me a receipt for it. I can live with that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Until I have passed through the gateline I have not completed my journey. Therefore that means if the railway wants to keep my ticket at the gateline they must give me a receipt for it. I can live with that.

Where the contract for travel by rail only, it is from one station to another, there is nothing to suggest that the journey is to the gateline, though Compulsory Ticket Areas would require you to hold the ticket until the gateline.

 

[Tom B]

In a practical sense perhaps staff could be equipped with means to put tickets beyond fraudulent use - maybe an instrument which could stamp a hole in the ticket, for instance?!

 

[Deerfold]

In a practical sense perhaps staff could be equipped with means to put tickets beyond fraudulent use - maybe an instrument which could stamp a hole in the ticket, for instance‽

Which means what? That you've travelled part of your journey?

I've put you a proper interrobang in there too.

 

[DelayRepay]

Also, I often keep my tickets for travel expenses claims. The tickets provide all the journey details that the finance folk like. A receipt is proof of expenditure at a given station on a given date, but could be for any old jolly that I indulged in, or even for a ticket I bought for someone else!

Equally, a ticket could be any old ticket that you found on the floor or in a litter bin - it doesn't mean you made the journey...

It's funny that employers seem to be paranoid about false expense claims for train tickets but how do those same employers satisfy themselves that someone claiming mileage for car travel actually made the journey?

 

[westv]

Is fraudulent use of used tickets a big problem?

 

[185143]

Is fraudulent use of used tickets a big problem?

I would imagine so! I've seen people get off a train and give a ticket to a mate who is boarding the train.

 

[causton]

I would imagine so! I've seen people get off a train and give a ticket to a mate who is boarding the train.

I've seen people offer other people Travelcards as they're exiting the barriers at stations, obviously one of the reasons why there's a big push on Oyster as you're less likely to give away your Oyster to someone!

My station (Tribute-software) gives itemised receipts showing pretty much all the data on the ticket, and I issue them almost by default if anyone looks like they are making a journey for business; or of course if they ask for them. I don't see a reason for needing to keep the original tickets (although it can be nice from an enthusiasts' point of view!) if you get an itemised receipt; except for delay repay.

 

[Flamingo]

Is fraudulent use of used tickets a big problem?

Yes! I can give example after example of people reusing tickets, either one's they bought themselves or picked up. It's difficult to prove, but is obvious when it's happening.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Yes! I can give example after example of people reusing tickets, either one's they bought themselves or picked up. It's difficult to prove, but is obvious when it's happening.

I think westv was talking about for the purposes of claiming expenses from employers

 

[westv]

I think westv was talking about for the purposes of claiming expenses from employers

Sorry for the confusion, I was actually talking about the re-use of tickets for travel. Single use tickets only.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Sorry :)

 

[Skimpot flyer]

King's Cross barriers will give London Terminals tickets back, due to further validity through to Moorgate for the vast majority of them, similar to the arrangement at Waterloo.

Really? I had assumed a London Terminals ticket from, say, Hatfield was only valid to Moorgate on the Network Rail route via Drayton Park.
Have you ever tried using a London Terminals ticket in the LUL barriers at Kings Cross ? If the barrier refuses to open, would the LUL staff be sufficiently trained, to know that it has validity on the Northern or Circle/Met/H&C lines ? I would not enjoy having to stand and argue !!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When I get to Liverpool Lime St on an Anytime ticket from the Wirral to LIVERPOOL STNS, the gate eats my ticket.
But what if I wanted to travel onwards later to Liverpool Central, with Lime St just being a break of journey?
I haven't ever wanted to do that, but it doesn't feel right to be denied the option.

 

[MikeWh]

Really? I had assumed a London Terminals ticket from, say, Hatfield was only valid to Moorgate on the Network Rail route via Drayton Park.
Have you ever tried using a London Terminals ticket in the LUL barriers at Kings Cross ? If the barrier refuses to open, would the LUL staff be sufficiently trained, to know that it has validity on the Northern or Circle/Met/H&C lines ? I would not enjoy having to stand and argue !!

It is a very long standing agreement dating back to the opening of the Drayton Park to Finsbury Park section which diverted local trains from Kings Cross to Moorgate. The tickets are only allowed for entry and exit at Finsbury Park, Highbury and Islington, Moorgate and Kings Cross after use on Underground services. You shouldn't have any issues with staff members, but as with any case mistakes can be made and they will be rectified after the event.

 

[AndyW33]

I do wonder if the reluctance of some staff to allow passengers to retain tickets is rooted in railway tradition. Back in the glory days of Edmundson Card tickets there were partial or complete blank tickets which were completed by the booking clerk or travel agent (yes, some travel agents held card tickets) in writing if the fare required wasn't one they held ticket stock for. The issue would be recorded in a daily return. But there couldn't be a carbon copy so the only way of checking that the ticket issued matched the return form was to send it back to the audit office at the end of the journey. There were other frauds possible by ticket issuers, as well as passengers, that ticket audit could detect. Modern systems have greatly reduced the opportunities for staff fraud, but there's a folk memory that the proper thing to do is to prevent the passenger walking away with the ticket for a completed journey, even if it has been punched, stamped or written on, because we've done it that way since the 1840s.

Of course the modern systems (or at least the reduction in staffing levels) has made it easier for passengers to defraud the railway!

 

[MKB]

Although I travel a lot by train, I rarely travel through destination stations with gates, and the last time I had a ticket retained was several years ago.

However, last Saturday, I travelled from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street and back, and paid with a travel voucher on the day and didn't get given a receipt. The return journey was delayed by more than 30 minutes and I was taken by surprise when the gate at MCO swallowed my ticket.

I have the outbound ticket only. How do I claim Delay Repay?

 

[bb21]

Although I travel a lot by train, I rarely travel through destination stations with gates, and the last time I had a ticket retained was several years ago.

However, last Saturday, I travelled from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street and back, and paid with a travel voucher on the day and didn't get given a receipt. The return journey was delayed by more than 30 minutes and I was taken by surprise when the gate at MCO swallowed my ticket.

I have the outbound ticket only. How do I claim Delay Repay?

You should never have put it through the gate if you wanted to retain the ticket in order to contact customer service. That is even the advice given by some TOCs.

You can try with sending in just the outward portion and explaining what happened to the return portion. There is no guarantee that it will work but you don't have many options.

 

[muz379]

having a blanket rule that the ticket remains the property of the railway means that in the instance that someone from the railway has good reason to confiscate someones ticket there can be no argument . Introducing exceptions to that rule would give those engaging in ticket fraud a bunch of reasons to bang out as to why their ticket cannot be withdrawn .

I have however never had reason to take someones ticket and unless I suspect it was fake I would never confiscate it .

As for people claiming they need it for expenses , an itemised receipt should do the job here . I dont get how actually submitting tickets proves you made the journey and paid for those tickets . Whats to say you didn't just pick a couple of tickets up off the floor at a station or on a train .

And with delay repay just the ticket number should give the TOC all of the information they need about your particular tickets . The here to help cards I hand out as a guard at work only require the passenger write the ticket number on and customer service will look up the information about the ticket on the computer .

 

[Greenback]

having a blanket rule that the ticket remains the property of the railway means that in the instance that someone from the railway has good reason to confiscate someones ticket there can be no argument . Introducing exceptions to that rule would give those engaging in ticket fraud a bunch of reasons to bang out as to why their ticket cannot be withdrawn .

Exactly right. As I said earlier, the railway needs the ability to take take tickets in certain circumstances, and this rule provides for just that.

 

[lookapigeon]

As for people claiming they need it for expenses , an itemised receipt should do the job here . I dont get how actually submitting tickets proves you made the journey and paid for those tickets . Whats to say you didn't just pick a couple of tickets up off the floor at a station or on a train .

Receipts from the ticket machines are no good, the ones on SWT just simply say a ticket with the amount, with no further detail on journeys. Accounts departments can be rather picky at times, and having to spend ages queuing up to get a proper receipt from a man behind the glass is a pain just to get the journey/ticket type on the receipt.

I assume you are being facetious when saying why not pick some tickets up off the floor ... if you submit a load of expenses for tickets that have no relevance to where you're travelling from/to on your defined expenses then of course accounts will pick up or you won't get paid when they are cross-checked. Have you ever had to claim on expenses?

Then again, let's flip that round and using the example of my SWT receipt from the ticket machine, how can I prove that I have made journey x and bought the ticket that I have required in line with expenses policy if the receipt is so vague?

Why not just do as other countries do and just endorse the ticket when you exit the transit system (if, say it is a single)?

Problem solved - the ticket collectors of the world can rejoice, and those that need to keep tickets to claim expenses can do so.

 

[maniacmartin]

Yet for buying other things, such as meals, misc. hardware, etc, a lot of accounts departments are happy to accept a vague receipt. Why is rail travel held to a higher standard? If I buy a meal on expenses I'm not expected to submit the food with the receipt.

 

[najaB]

Accounts departments can be rather picky at times, and having to spend ages queuing up to get a proper receipt from a man behind the glass is a pain just to get the journey/ticket type on the receipt.

I'm very surprised you have to provide tickets in order to claim on expenses. If they are TOD tickets collected at the station you would have a record on the online system, and if you are buying on the day at the station the receipt will have the time, date, location and amount printed on it which is enough to match back to your claim.

I don't know about your bean counters, but mine only care that the amounts and locations match up, I don't think they care where I go.