Does the UK really intend to implement it's own electronic authorization system?

sprunt

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I suspect that they still prefer their special status to being just another part of Spain (would Spain let them continue with their ethically dubious tax status and ensuing reliance on big gambling companies?)
The other option in the referendum wasn't being "just another part of Spain" - it was some kind of joint sovereignty agreement. Whether it was as ill defined as "leaving the European Union" was before the EU referendum, I don't know.
 
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Bletchleyite

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If you take your car to mainland Europe, you are likely to need an International Driving Permit and a green card with your insurance. Even if you hire a car, you will still need an IDP. For many this will be more than a minor inconvenience.
In what way? It's a piece of admin, that's all.

Add to that taking your dog on holiday when the pet passport is no longer valid and the loss of the EHIC card, meaning more expensive travel insurance. These "slight things" add up and of course dealing with all the paperwork, especially if there is a large workload caused by drivers applying all at once, means you cannot just head for the ferry at a moment's notice. Of course we did all these things before joining the EU but far fewer of us travelled then.
How many people "head for the ferry at a moment's notice"?

I'll give you the dog issue; that will hit pet lovers hard, and EHIC is more than a minor thing but again higher insurance doesn't put people off going to the States. Where it will be an issue is for people who can't get cover, particularly if cover is mandatory to enter (i.e. self-insurance is not accepted).
 

Meerkat

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Maybe our own resorts will gain if going abroad is more difficult, and I have never been happy with pets going back and forward anyway.
 

Howardh

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How would it work
It's a good question and I suppose there are two ways - 1 is an agreement for both sides to keep it as it is today (ie show ID cards/passport and use EU lanes) for both parties and allow the freedom to stay wherever you want as long as you can afford it - with the proviso that anyone seeking or gaining work (UK and EU) must have a permit; or 2. allow those of us who want a kind-of Europass where we pay for the privileges of (1) and that would be a stamp in our passports or separate card (or online when swiped) giving us EU-lane access, leave to stay as long as we wish, retaining the EHIC etc leaving those of us not taking up the offer will be required to fill an ETIAS form, be restricted to 90 days in 180 (without visa), aren't entitled to EHIC care and will use the aliens lane abroad rather than EU.

If the main issue with leaving was "EU's taking our jobs" then No. (1) deals with that whilst giving both sides more-or-less the same freedom of movement as before.

It does seem ludicrous to put barriers between us and the EU, with the additional red-tape and delays etc; plus the risk of EU goods costing more due to tariffs and transit costs.
 

Howardh

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How many people "head for the ferry at a moment's notice"?

and EHIC is more than a minor thing but again higher insurance doesn't put people off going to the States. Where it will be an issue is for people who can't get cover, particularly if cover is mandatory to enter (i.e. self-insurance is not accepted).
I've booked a flight in the morning for that afternoon, flown over to Holland and stayed in the hotel booked along with the flight (thanks, internet!!). Dunno how many others have done that - but having to wait 72hrs for your first ETIAS stamp (or whatever) has taken away that little pleasure.

As for the states, we don't know how many don't travel because of the high cost of insurance. We just know how many do travel, but the loss of the EHIC has caused me to sweat a bit these last 12 months, but it looks like the tests I've gone through are negative so I can get affordable insurance again.

But not to the States...no thanks!!
 

Howardh

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Maybe our own resorts will gain if going abroad is more difficult, and I have never been happy with pets going back and forward anyway.
Blackpool in pouring rain in March.....Alicante basking in 20c sunshine in March....tough one that. Let me think....
 

Bletchleyite

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I've booked a flight in the morning for that afternoon, flown over to Holland and stayed in the hotel booked along with the flight (thanks, internet!!). Dunno how many others have done that - but having to wait 72hrs for your first ETIAS stamp (or whatever) has taken away that little pleasure.
I suspect you are in a tiny minority of the population in doing that (I very often do spur of the moment UK rail journeys but tend to be priced out of doing them to other countries by air, while ferry trips being slower tend to need a day off work so again can't be done off the cuff), but if you do do that you might as well just maintain one valid all the time, i.e. apply for one as soon as it becomes possible, and when it runs out apply for another.
 

Howardh

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I suspect you are in a tiny minority of the population in doing that, but if you do do that you might as well just maintain one valid all the time, i.e. apply for one as soon as it becomes possible.
Oh yes, once you have the ETIAS it's good for 3 years; but many folks won't be in the loop and know exactly what it's all about so it may come as a surprise - maybe someone from the south wanting to pop over on Eurostar and finding they haven't the paperwork.

I have read though that when the ETIAS comes in, within the first year there will be lee-way and everyone is allowed one free visit (or something along those lines) to overcome this issue.
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh yes, once you have the ETIAS it's good for 3 years; but many folks won't be in the loop and know exactly what it's all about so it may come as a surprise
I suspect that anyone who is travel-savvy enough to be travelling at the drop of a hat is going to be well aware of it. It's hardly like Brexit has been a secret.

As I said the biggest issue is I suspect the uninsurable e.g. very old people or people who have a serious illness who may now not be able to leave the UK in any form (also criminals, but they should have thought of that before committing the crime so my sympathy is limited there). The actual admin is really very minor, it's an extra 5 minutes on the computer doing your booking once every 3 years and a charge that pales into insignificance compared with the other costs of a trip.

We could have avoided it by, er, not leaving, but to me that particular bit falls into the "mildly annoying" category and nothing more.
 

Howardh

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I suspect that anyone who is travel-savvy enough to be travelling at the drop of a hat is going to be well aware of it. It's hardly like Brexit has been a secret.

As I said the biggest issue is I suspect the uninsurable e.g. very old people or people who have a serious illness who may now not be able to leave the UK in any form (also criminals, but they should have thought of that before committing the crime so my sympathy is limited there). The actual admin is really very minor, it's an extra 5 minutes on the computer doing your booking once every 3 years and a charge that pales into insignificance compared with the other costs of a trip.

We could have avoided it by, er, not leaving, but to me that particular bit falls into the "mildly annoying" category and nothing more.
I'm actually more concerned about us requiring EU's to have full 10-yr passports to visit here; where currently they only need ID cards to travel round the majority of Europe. So to come here and give us their tourist cent, they will have to find £70-odd for a passport (+ application + waiting time) and I bet the majority say "no, thanks" and spend elsewhere.

Why we can't continue to accept ID cards is beyond me, and in any case it's hardly for security when those with ID cards can get into Ireland and cross over into the UK without passport in future. It's just illogical, but when has Brexit been anything but illogical?
 

Senex

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I suspect that anyone who is travel-savvy enough to be travelling at the drop of a hat is going to be well aware of it. It's hardly like Brexit has been a secret.

As I said the biggest issue is I suspect the uninsurable e.g. very old people or people who have a serious illness who may now not be able to leave the UK in any form (also criminals, but they should have thought of that before committing the crime so my sympathy is limited there). The actual admin is really very minor, it's an extra 5 minutes on the computer doing your booking once every 3 years and a charge that pales into insignificance compared with the other costs of a trip.

We could have avoided it by, er, not leaving, but to me that particular bit falls into the "mildly annoying" category and nothing more.
As one of those who may very well be unable to get travel insurance (or to get it at any reasonable price) these potential changes do not for me fall into any "mildly annoying" categorybut into the "potentially serious impediment" category, and it's all one more ground for hatred of Johnson's Tories and their Brexiteer supporters.
 

Howardh

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As one of those who may very well be unable to get travel insurance (or to get it at any reasonable price) these potential changes do not for me fall into any "mildly annoying" categorybut into the "potentially serious impediment" category, and it's all one more ground for hatred of Johnson's Tories and their Brexiteer supporters.
In the world of "we must have Brexit" you don't exist. There will be thousands in a similar situation, many voting Brexit, who suddenly find they've voted away their ability to travel.
 

JamesT

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I'm actually more concerned about us requiring EU's to have full 10-yr passports to visit here; where currently they only need ID cards to travel round the majority of Europe. So to come here and give us their tourist cent, they will have to find £70-odd for a passport (+ application + waiting time) and I bet the majority say "no, thanks" and spend elsewhere.

Why we can't continue to accept ID cards is beyond me, and in any case it's hardly for security when those with ID cards can get into Ireland and cross over into the UK without passport in future. It's just illogical, but when has Brexit been anything but illogical?
We'll have to wait and see on that one. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/visiting-the-uk-after-brexit says:
There will be no change to travel document requirements this year. We may stop accepting national ID cards for entry to the UK for EEA and Swiss citizens after 2020. We’ll announce further details, including the date for this change, in advance to allow travellers good time to plan their trips.
If they deem that EU ID cards have stringent enough security they might decide to keep accepting them.
 

Howardh

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We'll have to wait and see on that one. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/visiting-the-uk-after-brexit says:

If they deem that EU ID cards have stringent enough security they might decide to keep accepting them.
They'd better deem them stringent enough, after all as pointed out time and time again, any EU citizen in Ireland with one can walk/cycle/bus/train into the UK with just that (and not even have to show it) so why force EU's to carry passports coming to the UK via any other route? Crazy.
 

Bantamzen

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How many people "head for the ferry at a moment's notice"?

I'll give you the dog issue; that will hit pet lovers hard, and EHIC is more than a minor thing but again higher insurance doesn't put people off going to the States. Where it will be an issue is for people who can't get cover, particularly if cover is mandatory to enter (i.e. self-insurance is not accepted).
Whilst health insurance won't be a primary reason for putting off a trip to the US, it is nonetheless very much more expensive than currently found for EU trips. Once EHIC is lost, insurance costs will rise for UK visitors to the EU. Again it won't likely be the deal breaker, but it will be another cost to add to the waiver.

I've booked a flight in the morning for that afternoon, flown over to Holland and stayed in the hotel booked along with the flight (thanks, internet!!). Dunno how many others have done that - but having to wait 72hrs for your first ETIAS stamp (or whatever) has taken away that little pleasure.

As for the states, we don't know how many don't travel because of the high cost of insurance. We just know how many do travel, but the loss of the EHIC has caused me to sweat a bit these last 12 months, but it looks like the tests I've gone through are negative so I can get affordable insurance again.

But not to the States...no thanks!!
I've no idea where this 72 hour wait idea has come from, it is expected to take about 20 mins on average to apply for a ETIAS, about the same time it takes to apply for a US ETSA.

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-requirements

If the traveler has all the ETIAS requirements and is a citizen of any of the ETIAS eligible countries, it will take an average of 20 minutes to complete an ETIAS online application per person. Apart from having a valid passport, no further documentation will be required unless specifically requested by the member state for which the application is being made. ETIAS will accept applications made by third parties on behalf of an applicant.
Only if the ETIAS database returns an issue will the country of entry require up to an additional 96 hours to request additional information / documents from the applicant.
 

hooverboy

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I'm actually more concerned about us requiring EU's to have full 10-yr passports to visit here; where currently they only need ID cards to travel round the majority of Europe. So to come here and give us their tourist cent, they will have to find £70-odd for a passport (+ application + waiting time) and I bet the majority say "no, thanks" and spend elsewhere.

Why we can't continue to accept ID cards is beyond me, and in any case it's hardly for security when those with ID cards can get into Ireland and cross over into the UK without passport in future. It's just illogical, but when has Brexit been anything but illogical?
it's not a big deal at all.

when buying a ticket currently, all people need to carry "official photographic ID".
in the overwhelming majority of cases this is a passport or national ID card.The machine readable and biometric passports also work for japan,australia/NZ,Canada,USA and a few more, and is reciprocal.

it is theoretically possible to travel using a driving licence but not that many people have done it.

the only thing that changes is the requirement for 6 month validity remaining on the document, which is par for the course in almost every other country you travel to, and even this can be waived in extenuating circumstances(ie 3 months left and on short notice call out etc)

As for border checks, all electronic barriers will carry on as they are.

no reason to be worried about passport waiting times, if you really really need it and are prepared to pay, you can get a passport in 24 hours.
 

Howardh

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I've no idea where this 72 hour wait idea has come from, it is expected to take about 20 mins on average to apply for a ETIAS, about the same time it takes to apply for a US ETSA.
.
The official document?
https://etias.com/etias-frequently-asked-questions
Completing your online application form will take less than 10 minutes. After submission, your ETIAS application will be processed instantly and you will receive a decision from the system within 96 hours or less. A small percentage of applications may take up to four weeks to process if additional documentation is required from the applicant. If your ETIAS has not yet been approved and you do not have any other travel authorization, you will not be able to enter a country within the European Union
 

Bantamzen

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Well that completely contradicts this (taken from the US section):

https://www.etias.us/faq/how-long-does-it-take-apply-etias/

It takes about 10-20 minutes to complete the ETIAS online application. Once the application has been submitted, it will be processed instantly, and you will receive a decision to the email address you provided in your application between 24 to 48h after submission. However, some applications may take longer to process, up to 72 hours (3 days).

The application process takes a maximum of 10 minutes in total and processing the request takes approximately 24 hours but in some cases it can take up to 48 hours maximum. This is why it is recommended that travelers apply for the ETA at least 2 days before departure to avoid any possible delays.
(Not my embolding)

I can't imagine that the UK procedures will take longer, the US ETSAs on which the ETIAS is based takes about the same 10-20 minute average to apply & get a decision. And it is an electronic system, so no paperwork will be needed for travel once confirmation of acceptance will be needed.
 

Bletchleyite

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That delay is interesting - I assume it's processed manually in some form, as US ESTA can (and does for me) return an entirely automated, almost-immediate response. There's only a delay for manual intervention if something flags up that needs checking (then a much longer delay if it requires documentation etc).
 

Bantamzen

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The ETIAS is, as I understand it, based along very similar lines to ETSA. So the application is compared to the database for any flags, if none are returned then the electronic authorisation is given, the user immediately notified on a landing screen, and email notification then sent subsequently. Reading a bit between the lines of that last quote I posted, it sounds like the same is true with ETIAS. Its not dissimilar to booking some holidays / flights, you'll get an on-screen landing page confirming it, but the full email confirmation will arrive a little time later.
 

nlogax

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Point is, you should never rely on an almost immediate response. Real time ESTA processing was withdrawn eighteen months ago and a 72 hour wait should be built into any travel schedule. In recent months I've witnessed friends' applications take 24-36 hours for approval. More likely during a federal shutdown of course.

No doubt that ETIAS and the UK system will be along the same lines. For avoidance of issues, apply as soon as you know you're traveling.
 

Ianno87

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I suspect that anyone who is travel-savvy enough to be travelling at the drop of a hat is going to be well aware of it. It's hardly like Brexit has been a secret.
Although lots of Brexit supporters appear to be genuinely surprised that leaving the EU in fact means more restrictions / beauracracy placed on UK citizens. Suspect Summer 2021 will see lots of annual Spain-bound holiday makers getting turned away at Airports...
 

Bantamzen

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Point is, you should never rely on an almost immediate response. Real time ESTA processing was withdrawn eighteen months ago and a 72 hour wait should be built into any travel schedule. In recent months I've witnessed friends' applications take 24-36 hours for approval. More likely during a federal shutdown of course.

No doubt that ETIAS and the UK system will be along the same lines. For avoidance of issues, apply as soon as you know you're traveling.
I wasn't aware of the policy change for ETSAs, although a lot of advice sites do still seem to suggest that most go through in a fraction of the 72 hour deadline. Yes, it is of course prudent to apply well in advance to avoid problems, but the system remains largely the same. Get application, check against database, if no flags return approve. Its not in the interest of the US, or indeed the EU to have prolonged waiting periods for none-flagged applications, maybe more so in the case of the EU as people can & will travel on a whim.

Although lots of Brexit supporters appear to be genuinely surprised that leaving the EU in fact means more restrictions / beauracracy placed on UK citizens. Suspect Summer 2021 will see lots of annual Spain-bound holiday makers getting turned away at Airports...
I might have been misunderstanding, but I'm pretty sure I saw / read something recently that plans were underway to allow such passengers to make applications at the airports if needs be. However even if this were to be the case, I can imagine the queues of angry punters, this will catch a lot of people out.
 

Bletchleyite

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One thing that would be particularly good would be for airlines (and Eurostar) to be able to connect it into their booking system, and for the booking system not to allow "check in" unless it flags green. That would ensure both everyone was aware of it and nobody was surprised by it.
 

Ianno87

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I might have been misunderstanding, but I'm pretty sure I saw / read something recently that plans were underway to allow such passengers to make applications at the airports if needs be. However even if this were to be the case, I can imagine the queues of angry punters, this will catch a lot of people out.
"Oh, nobody told me I needed one" (best said in a northern accent* for effect).

*I'm northern, so allowed to say that.
 

dosxuk

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One thing that would be particularly good would be for airlines (and Eurostar) to be able to connect it into their booking system, and for the booking system not to allow "check in" unless it flags green. That would ensure both everyone was aware of it and nobody was surprised by it.
Traveling to the US on an ESTA is exactly like this. If the airline systems don't have a "ok" from the US border systems you won't be able to check in. This mostly manifests by being told to check in at the airport, where your documents can be manually examined.

About 18 months ago there were a load of information published that you needed to allow more time for ESTAs to be authorised, and not to expect it to happen in time if you arrive at the airport without one. If ETIAS works the same way, I also see a lot of angry holiday makers at UK airports complaining that they've not been allowed to board their flights.
 

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