Does the UK really intend to implement it's own electronic authorization system?

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
23,588
Location
Yorks
And good job that the UK is being the adult in this. I mean, the UK demands, and the UK gets. That's how it works isn't it?

The UK's bargaining power has been vastly deminished on the world stage, so it will be interesting how things turn out.

In the long run, the UK might actually have more lenient entry criteria as they try to encourage visitors. Time will tell.
Well, it's in both sides interest to obtain some sort of a trading deal. Negotiating from a position of righteous indignation won't achieve that I'm afraid.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
1,838
Well, it's in both sides interest to obtain some sort of a trading deal. Negotiating from a position of righteous indignation won't achieve that I'm afraid.
But that's just how the UK will 'negotiate', and the resulting mess will be evident to the whole country.
 

sprunt

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
918
Well, it's in both sides interest to obtain some sort of a trading deal. Negotiating from a position of righteous indignation won't achieve that I'm afraid.
But massively more in our interest - I can't remember the exact figures, but the percentage of our exports going to the EU is much higher than the percentage of EU exports going to the UK.
 

Cloud Strife

Member
Joined
25 Feb 2014
Messages
99
The schengen area already has procedures for issuing visas on arrival in similar circumstances, so I would be very surprised if there wasn't such an exception in the ETIAS rules too.
There will be something allowing for entry without prior notification in a case like this. The EU doesn't really have a "take no prisoners" attitude towards border control, even for those that need visas. I know one Russian girl who was allowed into Poland for a day to attend a funeral for instance, as she had simply no way of getting a visa in time. The whole thing was checked (phone calls to the funeral home, etc) and after it all checked out, she was permitted to travel to the city in question. The only condition was that she wasn't permitted to go 'off-route', nor was she permitted to stay in the country for more than 24 hours.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
5,376
There will be something allowing for entry without prior notification in a case like this. The EU doesn't really have a "take no prisoners" attitude towards border control, even for those that need visas..
That's true, certainly nothing like as strict as the USA. I've no idea what happens to non-visa carrying non-EU's who land in the EU unscheduled; the positive is I haven't heard any horror stories about pax not being allowed to take a replacement coach, or to go overnight to a hotel etc. Dunno how often that happens, but the point I raised about Gibraltar-bound flights ending up in Malaga or Faro is that does happen frequently, so procedures need to be in place by the time ETIAS kicks-in.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
2,663
I wonder if ETIAS and its UK counterpart might encourage some airports to seek pre clearance facilities as per US border controls at Dublin and Shannon? Many tourist focused airports in Europe have very few or no flights to the rest of the world. It would be possible for many airports to segregate flights to and from the UK from other services that require passports. Its not too much of a stretch to see Airports like Malaga, Barcelona etc have UK border controls and to have Schengen border controls at UK airports. The cost of building infrastructure and paying the US government for operating costs has prevented US controls being setup in the UK. The economy of scale necessary should be met at major UK airports for flights to Spain and Portugal at a minimum (and vice versa).
 

Doppelganger

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2011
Messages
141
I wonder if ETIAS and its UK counterpart might encourage some airports to seek pre clearance facilities as per US border controls at Dublin and Shannon? Many tourist focused airports in Europe have very few or no flights to the rest of the world. It would be possible for many airports to segregate flights to and from the UK from other services that require passports. Its not too much of a stretch to see Airports like Malaga, Barcelona etc have UK border controls and to have Schengen border controls at UK airports. The cost of building infrastructure and paying the US government for operating costs has prevented US controls being setup in the UK. The economy of scale necessary should be met at major UK airports for flights to Spain and Portugal at a minimum (and vice versa).
Is this your GCSE level analysis of the situation?

Let's just segregate all flights, wouldn't that be easy?

It sounds like your model is based on British superiority, with the belief that there will be lots of different jurisdictions bending over to accommodate the UK.

The UK isn't the centre of the World as much as you may have been led to believe.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
2,663
Is this your GCSE level analysis of the situation?

Let's just segregate all flights, wouldn't that be easy?

It sounds like your model is based on British superiority, with the belief that there will be lots of different jurisdictions bending over to accommodate the UK.

The UK isn't the centre of the World as much as you may have been led to believe.
Take emotion out if it and it makes huge sense for Airports that have extremely high numbers of British tourists. There are some airports where UK flights are the only non Schengen flights and no additional segregation would be required. Its not a catch all solution but individual airports might be looking into it. Manchester is trying to get US preclearance not because of politics but simply because they think the ability to get passport controls out of the way on departure will encourage people to choose Manchester for transatlantic flights. If border controls become more problematic then the appeal of such facilities for flights to Schengen countries would rise. If your expecting anymore than "GCSE level analysis" then frankly don't look in the general discussion area of a rail forum.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
1,838
The US has pre-clearance arrangements in mind for both Edinburgh and Manchester. Pre-clearance arrangements for ETIAS may work in the UK but where would you position it? Gatwick and Stansted seem obvious candidates. Maybe Manchester too?

From the EU > UK perspective, Eurostar has a small number of entry points and one core route so pre-clearance is easy. For airline passengers where would you begin?
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
9,333
Can anyone actually explain what benefits we as in the average UK passport holder travelling to Europe have if we have our own ETIAS system?

It seems to me to be more red tape and paperwork as well as cost when there’s a perfectly good system being proposed that we should use even though we are leaving the EU.

Also what’s wrong with going though passport control and just having your passport scanned by passport control and allowed/denied entry into that country like it has been for a number of years?
 

dosxuk

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
719
Can anyone actually explain what benefits we as in the average UK passport holder travelling to Europe have if we have our own ETIAS system?

It seems to me to be more red tape and paperwork as well as cost when there’s a perfectly good system being proposed that we should use even though we are leaving the EU.

Also what’s wrong with going though passport control and just having your passport scanned by passport control and allowed/denied entry into that country like it has been for a number of years?
It won't affect UK passport holders - the UK scheme is for visitors to the UK. The EU scheme will affect us, but the EU don't care if it causes us hassle because we're not EU members any more. We also can't share a system because that would require data sharing and common laws which the UK Gov refuse to consider.

It's worth pointing out that the EU introduction of ETIAS is not connected to Brexit, it's only by accident that the start date of the scheme and the end date of our current shared system are so close.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
2,663
The US has pre-clearance arrangements in mind for both Edinburgh and Manchester. Pre-clearance arrangements for ETIAS may work in the UK but where would you position it? Gatwick and Stansted seem obvious candidates. Maybe Manchester too?

From the EU > UK perspective, Eurostar has a small number of entry points and one core route so pre-clearance is easy. For airline passengers where would you begin?
I don't know about Edinburgh. Heathrow has become less likely because of the number of terminals. US pre clearance at Manchester has been incorporated into the design of the extended terminal 2. Terminal 1 is being demolished and terminal 3 will be the only budget terminal. If Schengen pre clearance was done at Manchester it would likely only be at terminal 2 focusing on the higher value flights. If the cost can be brought down through scale it would be possible to add the facilities to terminal 3. I agree its not as straight forward as Eurostar and would have to be market led. Pre clearance is generally popular with passengers because it gets stuff out of the way at the start of the journey but the cost of posting border staff overseas makes it a trade off between convenience and cost.

Can anyone actually explain what benefits we as in the average UK passport holder travelling to Europe have if we have our own ETIAS system?

It seems to me to be more red tape and paperwork as well as cost when there’s a perfectly good system being proposed that we should use even though we are leaving the EU.

Also what’s wrong with going though passport control and just having your passport scanned by passport control and allowed/denied entry into that country like it has been for a number of years?
There are no benefits of to British passengers from the UK having its own electronic authorisation system. The benefits are better security and easier access for visitors of nationalities that don't require visas. It means that there is more time and are more options to stop someone entering the UK. For the average foreign visitor it means a quicker process once they arrive in the UK (because most checks will have already been done). The US ESTA system is the most well known but Australia has one too. ETIAS adds more complications for Brits compared with during our time as EU members and this year during the transition but makes things easier compared to border checks that most non EU passengers go through today.

ETIAS is for Schengen countries not EU members. Ireland, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania will not be part of it but neither will their citizens (as EU citizens) need to use it to enter Schengen countries. Under the current legal setup the UK would need to join Schengen to be part of ETIAS.

It won't affect UK passport holders - the UK scheme is for visitors to the UK. The EU scheme will affect us, but the EU don't care if it causes us hassle because we're not EU members any more. We also can't share a system because that would require data sharing and common laws which the UK Gov refuse to consider.

It's worth pointing out that the EU introduction of ETIAS is not connected to Brexit, it's only by accident that the start date of the scheme and the end date of our current shared system are so close.
The coincidence has caused problems and means a delay to introducing it. It was planned on the basis that it was for all non EU passengers at pre brexit levels and adding Brits massively increases the number of people who will use it and its not going to be ready for 1st January 2021.
 
Last edited:

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
4,742
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
The US has pre-clearance arrangements in mind for both Edinburgh and Manchester. Pre-clearance arrangements for ETIAS may work in the UK but where would you position it? Gatwick and Stansted seem obvious candidates. Maybe Manchester too?

From the EU > UK perspective, Eurostar has a small number of entry points and one core route so pre-clearance is easy. For airline passengers where would you begin?
If there were to be pre-clearance arrangements at UK airports, it would make sense to have it at most if not all, as many airports handle largely Schengen-bound flights.
 

Top