Doors closing - your views on the behaviour of a guard

[oversteer]

Doors on a Central line train closed on my rucksack as I rushed through them


it was only when i got home I realised the banana in my bag had exploded as a result :cry:

 

[Anon Mouse]

If you are running for a train, you have missed it!

 

[southerner2174]

I got so fed up of late runners I used to deliberately dispatch as far away from them as I could, if your not on the train at least 30 seconds before it is booked to have its wheels turning then as long as I had a proceed aspect then I was leaving on time, with or without you.
As far as i'm concerned if you really wanted the train you would be on it and not 500 metres away expecting me to hold it up so you could board at your own time.

 

[pendolino]

They should be charged/fined

True, although the filthy looks they get from other passengers when you make a PA announcement along the lines of 'Apologies for the delay to your journey, this is due to the selfish actions of the person in the nth carriage forcing the doors open as they were closing, resulting in a defective door which will take some time to rectify' often suffices by way of admonishment.

 

[Anon Mouse]

especially when they have had time for a last minuite pint, starbucks or whatever. Or, when you have somebody running for the train and you give them time to jump on only for them to hold the doors for their mates!

 

[tubenutter]

Are you sure the guard actually pushed?

Perhaps the rushing commuter has not noticed the guard and bumped into him and then caught by surprise stumbled back off the train?

It certainly looked as though the man was pushed, but it did happen rather quickly and I was in a hurry so I can't say for sure. It may also be that the guard simply stuck an arm out in self-defense. The man who had attempted to board the train stood there until the train finally pulled away mouthing swear words and making hand gestures at the guard, which was clearly unreasonable but rather funny to watch!

By the way, sorry if I came across as accusatory towards the guard in my OP - that was not my intention. It was clear at the time that the passenger had not chosen a good time to try and board the train (though, as said by others, I'm sure we've all boarded trains at the last minute on occasions).

I have never seen a Voyager guard use the cab door when dispatching the train. Every time I've seem a Voyager the guard has been at one of the ordinary train doors.

Indeed, in this case it was an ordinary train door.

 

[DownSouth]

Offtopic, I know, but speaking of doors, would it really hurt them to put sensors on the in-carriage sliding doors on Voyagers? It's not very nice if you stand in one (through choice or being pushed if there's a big queue waiting to get off) and the door is crushing you and your hand is desperately hitting it hoping to find the open button

This technology does exist already, I travel on Bombardier-refurbished trains, Bombardier trams and Alstom trams which have them.

They can work either on light-gate sensors or a mechanical sensor that activates when the door's closing motion is resisted, both of which are based on tried and true technology used on lift doors. When either kind are activated, the motors on only that set of doors are floated (on the trains) or reversed to go back to the fully-open position (on the trams) so that the blockage can be cleared.

There are actually two reasons you want this kind of setup. The first is of course safety, because you don't want objects or body parts trapped in the doors.
The second reason is that floating the motors prevents the door mechanism from sustaining damage if the closing sequence is interrupted. In this day with the technology available to avoid it, there should be no need for an interrupted closing sequence to result in a defective door.

 

[Minstral25]

I know I will get attacked for this but I think many of the “guards” or “railway staff” have forgotten something – the railway is there for the passenger not the timetable. Yes it is important for a train to get away on time but there is recovery time in all routes and that’s there to cover for slight delays.

There are different situations but no guard or platform staff knows why a passenger is running for a train and the strict adherence to rules is sometimes idiotic to customer service.

I give an example to explain this. Recently I was travelling from Purley to Milton Keynes with a friend and cases of photographic equipment. We’d worked a time table out that meant a 15 minute change at Clapham Junction to the Southern service to Milton Keynes. Unfortunately the train from Purley was just over 10 minutes late but we still had time.

We were walking from the bridge to the train parked half way up the platform at Clapham Junction. The guard was in the back cab and had definitely clocked us walking up the platform obviously for his train. When we were 5 yards from the train he got the all clear and shut the doors in our faces. He then smirked at us as the train pulled out. We were then stuck at Clapham Junction for an hour waiting for the next train just because he couldn’t wait for the 10 seconds to allow us on the train, he could have just called us to hurry up as we approached the train and there would probably not even be that delay. In any case the train started moving 20 seconds before the due time.

Where there is a train every 2/3 minutes I agree it is tough for the passenger running late as they will be hardly delayed, but if it is an hourly service you need to act reasonably. You do not know why a passenger is late to the platform and often it would be like us delayed by another late running service. Would that MK train have delayed any other trains for the 10 seconds to let us on – realistically NO!

 

[loopit]

i must admit i have never come across bad behaviour from a door guard. in fact its been refreshing to see them actally on occasion enable a late arrival to board when perhaps they normally would'nt

 

[harz99]

I give an example to explain this. Recently I was travelling from Purley to Milton Keynes with a friend and cases of photographic equipment. We’d worked a time table out that meant a 15 minute change at Clapham Junction to the Southern service to Milton Keynes. Unfortunately the train from Purley was just over 10 minutes late but we still had time.

Not an attack but, the minimum change time at Clapham Jct. is 10 minutes. Given you are going for a train that is hourly, allowing only 5 minutes for any late running or other complications, really is not enough.

Double the minimum time would be more sensible and is the maxim I use in such circumstances. Same as travelling via separate London termini; I always leave myself sufficient time to either go by bus or walk, and never normally have any problems, simples.................

 

[OuterDistant]

They should fit the edges of sliding doors with razor blades

 

[transportphoto]

Not an attack but, the minimum change time at Clapham Jct. is 10 minutes. Given you are going for a train that is hourly, allowing only 5 minutes for any late running or other complications, really is not enough.

They had allowed 15 minutes, the inbound was 10 minutes late - thence they attempted a 5 min change. In this case they would have been able to claim delay repay. They had allowed the minimum interchange.

TP

 

[EM2]

I'm fairly sure guards can't dispatch from the crew doors anyway. All sliding doors on the Voyagers are available to all, the only 'crew' doors are the cabs. They're not like 180s, 222s or 390s which have dedicated crew doors.

The TM tends to be at the FC end unless mid ticket check or strategically positioned for key stations near the platform entrance/exit.

Ah, I see. My experience of Voyagers is limited, and I've never observed the despatch process closely. I'd assumed they were the same as Meridians.

 

[exile]

Hunts Cross was notorious for this situation
- train from Warrington arrives 5 minutes late
- Northern Line train is waiting to depart - 40 or 50 passengers start running across the bridge
- Northern Line train moves off immediately, leaving said passengers fuming on the platform - and then comes to a halt as it waits for a clear signal as the Warrington train crosses its path.

It seems to be forgotten here that one of the most common reasons you are running to catch a train is that the train you've just got off is running late.

 

[Muzer]

This technology does exist already, I travel on Bombardier-refurbished trains, Bombardier trams and Alstom trams which have them.

They can work either on light-gate sensors or a mechanical sensor that activates when the door's closing motion is resisted, both of which are based on tried and true technology used on lift doors. When either kind are activated, the motors on only that set of doors are floated (on the trains) or reversed to go back to the fully-open position (on the trams) so that the blockage can be cleared.

There are actually two reasons you want this kind of setup. The first is of course safety, because you don't want objects or body parts trapped in the doors.
The second reason is that floating the motors prevents the door mechanism from sustaining damage if the closing sequence is interrupted. In this day with the technology available to avoid it, there should be no need for an interrupted closing sequence to result in a defective door.

Yes, my local SWT Class 158/159s have a good system (albeit one which, in the past at least, occasionally used to break in the most annoying ways) - what sound like air-powered doors that are opened with a button. They don't try to close if someone is next to the door (it has a sensor, the housing for which is exactly the right size for a guard to put a ticket in if he wants it to stay open for whatever reason, which, intentional or not, is quite a nice feature I've seen used once or twice). Once the sensor is clear, it will close after fifteen seconds. If there's something stuck in the door, it will reopen after a few seconds of trying to close and try to close again 5 seconds later.




By the way, the other problem with Voyager doors not having the sensors which I've just remembered is usually what happens, and involves being less stupid/dopey than just standing in the doors because you don't realise they're there, is if a load of people are going through the doors (eg to get off the train), someone has opened them a while back, then suddenly, without warning, when you're walking through, they close on you.

 

[Anon Mouse]

i must admit i have never come across bad behaviour from a door guard. in fact its been refreshing to see them actally on occasion enable a late arrival to board when perhaps they normally would'nt

If that involves letting a passenger jump on through a crew door into the cab then the Guard would get disciplined for allowing a passenger in the cab.

 

[Minilad]

I know I will get attacked for this but I think many of the “guards” or “railway staff” have forgotten something – the railway is there for the passenger not the timetable. Yes it is important for a train to get away on time but there is recovery time in all routes and that’s there to cover for slight delays.

There are different situations but no guard or platform staff knows why a passenger is running for a train and the strict adherence to rules is sometimes idiotic to customer service.

I give an example to explain this. Recently I was travelling from Purley to Milton Keynes with a friend and cases of photographic equipment. We’d worked a time table out that meant a 15 minute change at Clapham Junction to the Southern service to Milton Keynes. Unfortunately the train from Purley was just over 10 minutes late but we still had time.

We were walking from the bridge to the train parked half way up the platform at Clapham Junction. The guard was in the back cab and had definitely clocked us walking up the platform obviously for his train. When we were 5 yards from the train he got the all clear and shut the doors in our faces. He then smirked at us as the train pulled out. We were then stuck at Clapham Junction for an hour waiting for the next train just because he couldn’t wait for the 10 seconds to allow us on the train, he could have just called us to hurry up as we approached the train and there would probably not even be that delay. In any case the train started moving 20 seconds before the due time.

Where there is a train every 2/3 minutes I agree it is tough for the passenger running late as they will be hardly delayed, but if it is an hourly service you need to act reasonably. You do not know why a passenger is late to the platform and often it would be like us delayed by another late running service. Would that MK train have delayed any other trains for the 10 seconds to let us on – realistically NO!

Just a couple of points about this. As well as staff need to know that the passenger is the be all and end all the passenger must also realise that a train service isn't their own personal taxi service. So how about we meet in the middle on that one.
Secondly you said you were walking along the platform for the train. If you knew the train was about to depart why didn't you run. Or jog. Or at least make some small effort to get on the train, especially seeing as you had an hour for the next one. Just saying

 

[Minstral25]

Just a couple of points about this. As well as staff need to know that the passenger is the be all and end all the passenger must also realise that a train service isn't their own personal taxi service. So how about we meet in the middle on that one.
Secondly you said you were walking along the platform for the train. If you knew the train was about to depart why didn't you run. Or jog. Or at least make some small effort to get on the train, especially seeing as you had an hour for the next one. Just saying

I don't think the train is my personal taxi service but a bit of courtesy from the train staff would be nice. The guard watched us carry heavy photo equipment towards his train (hence lack of jogging) and waited until we were yards from the train before closing the doors.

When we got on the platform there was a minute on the clock and the guard was clearly watching us, he had the cab window open and could have asked us to hurry up.

Anyway he is just a case in point and probably not a typical guard, I just wanted to readdress the balance that passengers paying fares should be looked after not attacked for running onto a train as the doors close.

 

[Michael.Y]

Then there is the passenger who stuck his arm and briefcase into a closing door on a full and standing ex-Holyhead demanding he be let on. I had to physically push the briefcase out. The guard had told me to shut the door (he was poking out of the cab immediately behind the vestibule) He couldn't have got on no matter what.

 

[Ferret]

I don't think the train is my personal taxi service but a bit of courtesy from the train staff would be nice. The guard watched us carry heavy photo equipment towards his train (hence lack of jogging) and waited until we were yards from the train before closing the doors.

When we got on the platform there was a minute on the clock and the guard was clearly watching us, he had the cab window open and could have asked us to hurry up.

Anyway he is just a case in point and probably not a typical guard, I just wanted to readdress the balance that passengers paying fares should be looked after not attacked for running onto a train as the doors close.

Even though running on to a train as the doors close could be construed as a byelaw offence?!

 

[harz99]

They had allowed 15 minutes, the inbound was 10 minutes late - thence they attempted a 5 min change. In this case they would have been able to claim delay repay. They had allowed the minimum interchange.

TP

Small comfort for the extra hour's wait though; most people would rather be on a train than worry about claiming delay repay.

 

[34D]

I know I will get attacked for this but I think many of the “guards” or “railway staff” have forgotten something – the railway is there for the passenger not the timetable.

How dare you speak out against the hallowed railway staff. If someone buys a £200 ticket for the 17:06 then they should have enough logic to assume that the doors close at 17:05.30 and not 17:06.59 - how dare they.

If that involves letting a passenger jump on through a crew door into the cab then the Guard would get disciplined for allowing a passenger in the cab.

Does that extend to the rear vestibule of class 150/2 or 317s etc? Even though such vestibule is a passenger compartment when units in mult?

 

[Anon Mouse]

I have no idea about 150's or 317's as I don't work them. I suspect if you are talking about the 150's with the slam door by the cab I would imagine that would also be frowned upon as they are not passenger doors either when operation on its own or in multiple....I am open to be told otherwise by those who work them!

 

[Wyvern]

The door didnt magically appear, it was there for the whole trip but you didnt notice it.

Mind you it doesnt happen on quailty trains (Mk IIIs)

 

[34D]

I have no idea about 150's or 317's as I don't work them. I suspect if you are talking about the 150's with the slam door by the cab I would imagine that would also be frowned upon as they are not passenger doors either when operation on its own or in multiple....I am open to be told otherwise by those who work them!

That's class 150/1 - and yes I'd agree about them.

Class 150/2 have the corridor connections

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sorry if people don't like this but lets get quite a few simple points made perfectly clear

There are posters practically everywhere on stations warning passengers that doors close 45/30/20 seconds BEFORE departure (dependent on TOC)

I am not going to delay 300 people to let one person who cannot be arsed to even make a reasonable effort to get to the train on time on my train.

Delays cost money and the buck stops at the guard (if there is no other reason why the train is late) we get can get disciplined

people jumping on trains at the last minute can not only delay the train they can cause themselves injury.

we have rules we have to follow, whether people like it or not.



all done

 

[Anon Mouse]

Sorry if people don't like this but lets get quite a few simple points made perfectly clear

There are posters practically everywhere on stations warning passengers that doors close 45/30/20 seconds BEFORE departure (dependent on TOC)

I am not going to delay 300 people to let one person who cannot be arsed to even make a reasonable effort to get to the train on time on my train.

Delays cost money and the buck stops at the guard (if there is no other reason why the train is late) we get can get disciplined

people jumping on trains at the last minute can not only delay the train they can cause themselves injury.

we have rules we have to follow, whether people like it or not.



all done

my sentiments also!

 

[tony_mac]

There are posters practically everywhere on stations warning passengers that doors close 45/30/20 seconds BEFORE departure (dependent on TOC)

I really don't think they are as common as you think.

I think that there are also 2 minutes, 1 minute, and 40 seconds posters.

Isn't it a bit silly to have to resort to these 'thousands' of posters, with many different times on them because different TOCs and stations have different policies?

But, this entire topic was done to death quite recently, and I couldn't cope with all that again!

 

[221129]

I have no idea about 150's or 317's as I don't work them. I suspect if you are talking about the 150's with the slam door by the cab I would imagine that would also be frowned upon as they are not passenger doors either when operation on its own or in multiple....I am open to be told otherwise by those who work them!

Whe alighting at some request stations in devon they will let you out of the back cab door as it saves them opening all the doors on the train Newton St Cyres is one example that i know of as ive done it to alight

 

[Miken]

I cannot understand human behaviour sometimes. Running to get on a tube train for example as the doors close when there is another train in 1 minute away is absolutely bonkers and I think typifies the attitude in parts of this thread; the same goes for the 'heroes' who are macho and hold doors open. All of these risk potentially serious injury to themselves and others and most train staff are having to protect people from themselves.

Just to point out I'm a member of the public and not rail staff but wholeheartedly support staff who have to do a difficult job dealing with some, frankly, stupid behaviour and then get a load of abuse for doing it.

If you want to catch a certain train and it's life or death that you do, then get there in good time instead of hurling yourself at the doors, the staff or anything else that seems to be getting in your way. If you are late - catch the next train - you won't die that way... simples!