"Duty" to seek out the guard (again!)

[DeeGee]

Well then, explain to me how selling tickets helps to safely deliver the timetable?

Pays for itself, does it ?

 

[Flamingo]

Of course unless they boarded a station with no ticketing facilities, on which case the full range of tickets and discounts will be offered


There are a number of solutions to this, one of which was floated above. Make people expect to have to pay by upping the staff on board. Make it a deterrent.

To be fair no amount of rule setting, financial penalties or other sanctions are going to prevent those determined few with this sort of crappy attitude.

The whole point is, it's not a determined few, in some places it's the majority. Which still doesn't take away from the basic point, if the TOC has a commercial Guard on the train, what is wrong with expecting the passenger who needs a ticket to make some effort to find that guard? It's no different than queueing at a booking office or TVM.

As far as I'm concerned, all these excuses are simply to massage the conscience of the "Pay when challenged" fare dodgers, and if any forum members posting here or reading this are offended because you fit that category and you don't like having this pointed out to you, I make no apology for that. If the cap fits...

 

[TUC]

The whole point is, it's not a determined few, in some places it's the majority. Which still doesn't take away from the basic point, if the TOC has a commercial Guard on the train, what is wrong with expecting the passenger who needs a ticket to make some effort to find that guard? It's no different than queueing at a booking office or TVM.

Because booking office staff and TVMs by definition are stuck in one place whereas a guard has legs that they are expected to use.

 

[Flamingo]

Because booking office staff and TVMs by definition are stuck in one place whereas a guard has legs that they are expected to use.

We're back to expected again. The only expected I can remember seeing is that the passenger is expected to buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity.

I know that is a difficult concept for some to grasp. Which bit of it needs explaining further?

 

[crehld]

So lots of non-rail staff on here maintain. Has this ever been tested in court, or is it somebody's "interpretation" of the NRCoC? I've never seen it explicitly stated anywhere (except by posters on here) and would love to know the reference, either to the case, or the written condition, or the bylaw.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If Guards are refusing to sell you tickets, complain to the TOC. If it has happened every train you have ever travelled on, complain to Passenger Focus and your MP.

It's funny how even the most vocal complainer on this Forum never seems to complain to any of the above about circumstances that mean they might get a free ride, but will whinge loud and long in every possible channel when somebody dares to suggest that today's possible loophole in the Routeing Guide might not be valid.

I have complained. Even sent a cheque in for the unpaid fare when I've alighted at an unstaffed station (it got cashed so I assume they got it). Even got myself into a bit of bother for actively approaching staff at my destination to purchase a ticket when I've not had an opportunity to do so prior.

I've also complained about the lack of facilities to buy a ticket.

Further, it is a regular complaint by my local rail user's group that the lack of ticket issuing facilities and a poor level of on board sales is not only bad for revenue, but also means line usage is probably underestimated by a third, which in turn adversely affects investment. So it's not just me crying out in the wilderness. People are complaining about it; no one's listening.

I personally find it rather funny how many of the complaints of railway staff are unnecessarily directed at this forum when they'd be better targeted at their management who can solve the issue. Don't like people boarding at stations without a ticket? Remove the excuse, provide adequate facilities and then come down like a tonne of bricks on those who break the rules. I object to fare evasion so I'm all for it. Let's get it done. Over to you.

 

[sheff1]

Yawn. Of course, I forgot. It is one of the mantra's on here that every passenger wants to buy a ticket, it's lazy guards hiding in the back cab that prevent them doing so - of course, this is just part of the big plot so they can then be written up by an RPI despite making every effort to pay... :roll:

So what about the large number of people who travel, not only from stations with TVM's, but even manned booking offices, but have some other bollix excuse like "I was running for the train", resulting in the usual apologists on here with "But if it's the only train for 16 hours..." - should they find the guard, or sit there fast asleep with their headphones on?

I have no reason to disbelieve your accounts of what happens in FGW-land and hence wonder what your reason is to disbelieve accounts of the situation in Northern-land where things are rather different. To repeat for the umpteenth time - most stations up here are unstaffed, the majority of those have no TVMs of any description, never mind ones taking cash, and guards prefer that you wait until they reach you rather than you charging down the train waving fistfulls of cash.

 

[TUC]

We're back to expected again. The only expected I can remember seeing is that the passenger is expected to buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity.

I know that is a difficult concept for some to grasp. Which bit of it needs explaining further?

A little thing called the basic requirements of the guard's job description come to mind.

Do you really think that customers are just to run around a train whilst a member of staff sits on their backside and waits for them?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is very noticeable that there seems to be a relationship between how well managed a TOC is, and what they expect their staff vs customers to do. Why should customers have to do more just to make up for a TOC failing to enforce staff to carry out their duties?

 

[crehld]

The whole point is, it's not a determined few, in some places it's the majority. Which still doesn't take away from the basic point, if the TOC has a commercial Guard on the train, what is wrong with expecting the passenger who needs a ticket to make some effort to find that guard? It's no different than queueing at a booking office or TVM.

Nothing I guess. I've just been told by staff in no uncertain terms that knocking on the door of the rear cab is unacceptable. How do I know if a guard would rather I sit and wait, or get up and approach them.

As far as I'm concerned, all these excuses are simply to massage the conscience of the "Pay when challenged" fare dodgers, and if any forum members posting here or reading this are offended because you fit that category and you don't like having this pointed out to you, I make no apology for that. If the cap fits...

I'm not massaging anyone's conscience. I'm not making excuses for fare dodgers. I'm not offended either. I just don't think it's as black and white as you make it out to be. You seem to be under the impression adequate facilities to buy tickets exist on every station. They do not. You also seem to be under the impression that all guards are content for passengers to get up and go knocking on the back cab door. They are not. Until these inconsistencies are eliminated I'm afraid the situation is what is. I'm afraid I can't apologise for that. It's up to your industry to fix.

 

[Dai Corner]

There is also the case where the ticket you require isn't available from TVMs and the station is unmanned. An example is the Valleys Day Ranger. I emailed ATW about this a few weeks ago and they said it was fine to board without a ticket and pay the guard and indeed this proved to be the case and the guard happily sold me one. I don't know whether the recent announcement changes this.

Regarding the problem of theft or attempted theft of cash from TVMs, how about this. Passenger selects his ticket in the normal way and is asked how wishes to pay. If he selects cash a 'ticket' with date, time, origin, destination, fare and wording such as "I undertake to pay the fare shown in cash at the earliest opportunity"

On presenting the 'ticket' to the guard or RPI on the train or at the gate or excess fare at the destination he pays his fare. Failure to produce a 'ticket' would clearly be intent to avoid payment and would be dealt with by penalty fare or prosecution as appropriate.

 

[Tracky]

Just to add another thought into this.

On some routes, partucularly local stopping services it is very noticeable as a guard how many passengers actively walk away from you to avoid buying a ticket. How many walk a distance to sit in the unit you do not pop out from when two non gangwayed units are coupled together.

I do have some sympathy with Arriva management with the suggestion that those people who make the effort to avoid the guard, in future make the effort to be in a position where the guard can sell a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Passenger selects his ticket in the normal way and is asked how wishes to pay. If he selects cash a 'ticket' with date, time, origin, destination, fare and wording such as "I undertake to pay the fare shown in cash at the earliest opportunity"

On presenting the 'ticket' to the guard or RPI on the train or at the gate or excess fare at the destination he pays his fare. Failure to produce a 'ticket' would clearly be intent to avoid payment and would be dealt with by penalty fare or prosecution as appropriate.

That's more or less PERTIS, a permit to travel, except PERTIS machines are like car park ticket machines and except coins but do not give change so you are able to pay a part fare and surrender the PERTIS ticket as a voucher.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...

Without going too far off topic it is worth reminding, correct me if I'm wrong, but Northern still have a policy where guards are only permitted to close the doors and dispatch from the rear cab/door position.

 

[IanD]

I've come across a couple who quite strongly objected when, after having sat down for 15 minutes and no one passing through, I went to the back of the train and knocked on the cab door to ask for a ticket.

My first thought here was "What were the couple up to in the back cab??"

 

[Starmill]

I have complained. Even sent a cheque in for the unpaid fare when I've alighted at an unstaffed station (it got cashed so I assume they got it).

They accepted a cheque without an invoice and didn't even acknowledge receipt!? Very poor form. One assumes the TOC you travelled on also pocketed 100% of the revenue then!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there is a guard on the train, on most journeys that would count as adequate facilities for most tickets and payment types, I would have thought.

Do not attach your own high standards to all of your industry colleagues. The Railway has some fantastic people and nobody refutes that, but I can't believe the implication of all of your posts is that there are not guards out there who just completely ignore revenue duties. There are!

The point I usually try to stress at this juncture is that the argument is self-serving. None of the guards who are shirking the job they're paid to do will be any of the ones on this forum. Likewise none of the vocal passengers on here are the ones who are shirking their responsibility to pay for a service they are using.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Basically, too many people make excuses for the "Pay when challenged" brigade, as the last few posts show. Talk about "Paytrains" is another red herring - how long ago did they go out? Over ten, I know that.

I thought they got rid of the name because they decided that the concept would effectively apply everywhere, except at the fairly small number of locations where booking offices were to be retained (of course, then 'proper' TVMs came along).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing I guess. I've just been told by staff in no uncertain terms that knocking on the door of the rear cab is unacceptable. How do I know if a guard would rather I sit and wait, or get up and approach them.

The only place I have seen people knocking on rear cab doors is on London Midland in the West Midlands. I was so shocked that several people do so on most of the journeys I make on the Cross-City line. On no occasion that I witnessed did the guard prove able to sell a ticket. None were told to bugger off like I have been, but it seems the Avantixes are very unreliable in Birmingham!

 

[najaB]

Pays for itself, does it ?

Paying for the railway and operating it are two different things though. NR is the railway operator and they get to use GSM-R. Selling tickets is a commercial activity of the TOCs so they have to use standard commercial 3G/4G.

 

[crehld]

My first thought here was "What were the couple up to in the back cab??"

Gosh!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My take on this is that if you need to find the guard, he should be in one particular place, not walking through the train - let's call it a train reception desk, even if it's actually the back cab. This should be indicated on posters on the station, and the door nearest it should be clearly marked, as well as the cab door being marked as "Tickets" or similar.

Finding someone in an arbitrary position in a possibly very busy train is a ludicrous idea.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What is the difference between seeking out the TVM at the station (which you might not have used before) and seeking out the guard on the train?

The TVM's only job is to sell you a ticket, the guard's primary job is to ensure the safety of the train and the passengers.

I get both sides of the argument- passengers will deliberately try and avoid the guard wherever possible- but the solution to that is to provide ticketing facilities on stations. The fact is that most TOCs have spent the last twenty years systematically getting rid of ticketing facilities on stations. This is the consequence of their action.

 

[Tracky]

I think we have established (once again) that the "duty to seek out the guard" doesn't really apply.

However, in ATWs defence, I suspect the idea behind it was to ask the passenger to make more of an effort to pay. In the original article the comment about "seeking" isn't in a quote from either manager but the line is, "seek a guard, Arriva Trains Wales managers have warned." Makes me wonder if it has been run away by poor journalism.


To me an acceptable policy would be...
1)Buying before boarding where facilities exist to do so. The operator should provide more than just one machine unless it is a very quiet station and if card only machines are used PERTIS machines should sit alongside.

2) Making an effort to see the guard on the train. To me this means looking out for his location on the train when it rolls in and making sure if the guard passes through you actively attract the attention of the guard. For example have money ready and make a friendly gesture.

Maybe, when a pair of pacers are used, the guard riding in the rear should be advertised so anybody who requires a ticket can ensure they join the rear train.

 

[TUC]

The TVM's only job is to sell you a ticket, the guard's primary job is to ensure the safety of the train and the passengers.

I get both sides of the argument- passengers will deliberately try and avoid the guard wherever possible..

But this issue isn't primarily about passengers trying to avoid the guard, although I recognise that some will. It is about that honest passengers should not have to walk around the train looking for someone to pay their fare to.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Finding someone in an arbitrary position in a possibly very busy train is a ludicrous idea.

It's fairly common on the Cotswold Line, on services leaving Hanborough towards Oxford, for the guard to announce "Passengers requiring a ticket please come and find me, I am in carriage (...)".

Since all the stations after Hanborough are barriered, there's little danger of this giving dodgers a heads-up as to how to avoid detection. Rather, it provides people with a way of buying a ticket without queueing for 10 minutes at the barriers at Oxford.

(Of course, it would help if the TVMs were actually able to sell the tickets people want to buy. After 18.30 the best value ticket on the Cotswold Line is the Oxford Evening Out ranger, but TVMs can't issue it, the ticket offices are closed, and Oxford barrier staff refuse to sell it. So the only option is to buy it from a guard.)

 

[Tetchytyke]

But this issue isn't primarily about passengers trying to avoid the guard, although I recognise that some will. It is about that honest passengers should not have to walk around the train looking for someone to pay their fare to.

Yeah, I totally agree. They certainly shouldn't have to be walking around the train demanding the immediate attention of someone whose main job is the safety of the train not selling tickets.

It is hard to separate those who genuinely didn't have the guard come to them and those who didn't have the guard come to them because they were hiding. The way around that is to take revenue off the train, but the costs of that are the main reason why revenue went on to the train in the first place.

 

[reb0118]

....[A] lady... woke the ticket examiner up from his nap to buy a ticket.....He was not best pleased

I certainly wasn't or should that be !

 

[matt_world2004]

Maybe there should be a duty for all stations to be staffed and barriered, therefore it could be proven that individuals ignored an opportunity to pay. It would be very expensive but it would improve customer and staff safety. I cannot imagine it is very safe for a guard to be carrying cash around.

 

[TUC]

It seems to me that there are two possible scenarios:
A) the guard is dealing with safety critical issues in which case they won't want to be disturbed to sell tickets
B) the guard is not dealing with safety critical issues in which case they should be walking the train checking and selling tickets.

 

[Agent_c]

Maybe there should be a duty for all stations to be staffed and barriered, therefore it could be proven that individuals ignored an opportunity to pay. It would be very expensive but it would improve customer and staff safety. I cannot imagine it is very safe for a guard to be carrying cash around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunrobin_Castle_railway_station

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invershin_railway_station

Passenger numbers might be on the up, but do you think its viable to staff either of these stations for 2-3 trains a day?

 

[najaB]

Passenger numbers might be on the up, but do you think its viable to staff either of these stations for 2-3 trains a day?

Well then, perhaps what they could do is have someone on the train who can sell tickets - to cut down the costs, maybe make it a secondary job for one of the on train staff members.... oh, wait.

 

[323235]

I've come across a couple who quite strongly objected when, after having sat down for 15 minutes and no one passing through, I went to the back of the train and knocked on the cab door to ask for a ticket.

Well they should have got there first! I would quite happily argue the toss if this happened and a passenger got the hump, as I have banged on the door many times and have never got anything other than a pleasant "what can I get you" or "my machines out of battery sorry"

 

[455driver]

After recently catching a Northern stopping train from Sheffield (2x142) it was quite funny when on arrival at Meadowhall (guard at rear door of rear unit) about 80% of the intending passenger's boarded the front unit despite the fact it was already quite full (I checked at Sheffield hence me being in the rather more empty rear unit), the guard decided to go and check their tickets and despite them having caught the train too Meadowhall and spending a not small amount on shopping the vast majority didn't have tickets.
I asked the guard if that was unusual and he replied it was more often than not the case.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can well believe it. It makes me laugh at Hemel Hempstead, which has barriers but they're only working about half the time. I can always tell when the barriers are closed because the queue at the ticket office is about four times longer than when the barriers are open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can well believe it. It makes me laugh at Hemel Hempstead, which has barriers but they're only working about half the time. I can always tell when the barriers are closed because the queue at the ticket office is about four times longer than when the barriers are open.

Bletchley barriers seem to be open and unmanned more often than not these days. I guess that is from the RPI team cuts?

 

[PermitToTravel]

They don't need to be staffed by RPIs; in fact I think the only of LM's barriers that is is Euston?