EMR Class 360's

[QSK19]

I imagine that if they were given 350s, they'd go to pot within a couple of years...

Off topic I know, but this has been my major concern with them getting the 810s - they’re going to have these lovely bespoke trains and trash them within a year.

Back on the topic of the 360s, they are fundamentally a very solid train (as the Desiro family as a whole is); however, EMR should have been given 321s (or even 319s) to run the Connect services if we knew that the 360s were going to be run into the ground as much as they have been.

I have always strongly argued that the poor state of the 360s when they moved from GA and the difficult maintenance arrangements stung EMR from the word go; however EMR have managed the situation terribly and the 360s are arguably worse now than ever.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

How are the 170s with EMR, any better?

A few weeks ago I travelled in & out of Nottingham and both trips were on 170s on the Robin Hood line, perhaps I was lucky I found to be faultless and on time.

The interiors were fine & comfortable though unrefurbished, I arrived in a 170 in Scotrail colours and left in one with the old London Midland colours!

I am not from the East Midlands nor a regular user, some locals may give a better verdict than I can so would be interested to know.

It looks like EMR could be prioritising the most profitable routes such as intercity over the Connect services but again it has been recently discussed some 222s are also in a bad condition.

The DfT may not be bothered to strip EMR of the contract due to poor maintenance, but say if it gets taken over by the OLR so the same staff, who are being negligent, could be tuped over then this problem still would continue to persist.

 

[LowLevel]

The 360s will probably never come good with the daft maintenance regime that persists. I don't think anything like it happens anywhere else on the network except on a temporary basis such as when 317s were borrowed for Moorgate Thameslink services and tractored over to/from Hornsey by 319s. You just can't maintain them properly.

You literally can't just stick them in a heavy repair shed when needed because it's in Northampton which electric traction wise is effectively on the other side of the sea requiring a boat trip, and whilst Bedford is being somewhat expanded in capability it'll never be like a proper depot.

 

[43066]

Today 3 out of the 6 diagrams are now operating as 4-car units yet again. The services are full and standing, absolutely rammed solid.

9 serviceable units out of a fleet of 21 is an appalling level of performance.

Is it time for EMR to abandon all hope of using these units as intended? Are the promises of 12-car operation in the peak ever to be fulfilled?
Or is it the case that the fleet is quite simply not being satisfactorily maintained? And a thorough overhaul of the maintenance regime would resolve these repeated short formed services?

Is it time for EMR to replace 360s with 350s or more modern stock? Or is it not the stock but the poor fleet maintenance which is at fault?
9 serviceable units out of a fleet of 21 is atrocious performance.

however EMR have managed the situation terribly and the 360s are arguably worse now than ever.

The issues with maintenance have been explained several times. The units are now pretty reliable (didn’t EMR 360s just win a Silver Spanner for most improved fleet?). The issue is getting them in for exams/light maintenance at Bedford, and dragging them to Northampton for heavier maintenance. The age and type of stock really makes no difference.

To be fair EMR generally do a pretty good job on maintrnance. IIRC 170s have also won an award and meridians have bombproof reliability and have been golden spanner winners six years in a row for first gen new IC units.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Given that the 350s are pretty much identical to a 360 (bar the front-end gangway) and the 350s are very reliable trains, what do you think?

It's a shame that customers face TWO of the evils when it comes to passenger experience, and that is 1) Poor, tatty interior AND 2) Unreliability. One would be bad enough, but two is pretty awful. And indeed, the 350s are freshly refurbished and very reliable.

The 360s will probably never come good with the daft maintenance regime that persists. I don't think anything like it happens anywhere else on the network except on a temporary basis such as when 317s were borrowed for Moorgate Thameslink services and tractored over to/from Hornsey by 319s. You just can't maintain them properly.

You literally can't just stick them in a heavy repair shed when needed because it's in Northampton which electric traction wise is effectively on the other side of the sea requiring a boat trip, and whilst Bedford is being somewhat expanded in capability it'll never be like a proper depot.

Yes, it's really quite an unfortunately unique situation.

 

[spotify95]

Today 3 out of the 6 diagrams are now operating as 4-car units yet again. The services are full and standing, absolutely rammed solid.

9 serviceable units out of a fleet of 21 is an appalling level of performance.

Is it time for EMR to abandon all hope of using these units as intended? Are the promises of 12-car operation in the peak ever to be fulfilled?
Or is it the case that the fleet is quite simply not being satisfactorily maintained? And a thorough overhaul of the maintenance regime would resolve these repeated short formed services?

Is it time for EMR to replace 360s with 350s or more modern stock? Or is it not the stock but the poor fleet maintenance which is at fault?
9 serviceable units out of a fleet of 21 is atrocious performance. Something needs to be done. The repeated failures and insufficient standby units is seriously affecting the standard of service.

It wasn't even just "9 out of 21" that was the problem yesterday. The reliability of the 360s and EMR in general is so bad, they can't be trusted.

The service that pulls into Corby about 5pm (thereby forming the 17.11) started losing time north of Luton, got dragged into Platform 3 at Bedford running 10 minutes late, and was thereby terminated. Nothing at all for Wellingborough, Kettering or Corby, amd thereby no 17:11 at all. What the hell EMR?!

To make matters worse, the 6:17 due Corby at 7:30 is being terminated at Kettering today (about 20 minutes late) and canceled to Corby. That's no good when I work in Corby - I'm now going to have to use a different mode of transport altogether to make sure I get to work on time.

Thanks EMR and you're 360s, you really make a valid alternative to using the automobile... NOT!!!!!

 

[QSK19]

The issues with maintenance have been explained several times. The units are now pretty reliable (didn’t EMR 360s just win a Silver Spanner for most improved fleet?). The issue is getting them in for exams/light maintenance at Bedford, and dragging them to Northampton for heavier maintenance. The age and type of stock really makes no difference.

To be fair EMR generally do a pretty good job on maintrnance. IIRC 170s have also won an award and meridians have bombproof reliability and have been golden spanner winners six years in a row for first gen new IC units.

When I wrote “worse now than ever”, I didn’t mean just from the 360 maintenance side - I meant it from a general point of view, including other factors like the appalling interior condition of EMR’s stock.

The one thing that EMR does have going for it is that you can generally rely on them to get from A to B - we’ve seen the issues at, for example, Avanti and TPE. So even with 4-car short forms, at least the services are actually operating, I do acknowledge that.

Maintenance-wise, even with the best maintenance regime leading to Gold Spanners, the geography of the 360 maintenance set up is still a real pain in the backside. And the fact that they’re struggling to get 9 out of 21 units into service clearly highlights fundamental issues. As for the Silver Spanner award, the cynic in me would argue that because they were so bad in the first place, anything would a major improvement(!); but credit where credit is due.

I have sometimes wondered whether the ultimate plan is to wait until the 350s become available. For me, the lack of refurbishment progress (and rather plastic remark on it by Will Roger’s in Modern Railways) could be a sign that the 360s aren’t long term - no point investing time or money in something if it’s not hanging around. I also believe that they go off lease in only several years’ time (something like 2027?); but admittedly I am not sure on this. Admittedly, this is speculation and doesn’t belong in this thread.

 

[43066]

When I wrote “worse now than ever”, I didn’t mean just from the 360 maintenance side - I meant it from a general point of view, including other factors like the appalling interior condition of EMR’s stock.

The one thing that EMR does have going for it is that you can generally rely on them to get from A to B - we’ve seen the issues at, for example, Avanti and TPE. So even with 4-car short forms, at least the services are actually operating, I do acknowledge that.

Maintenance-wise, even with the best maintenance regime leading to Gold Spanners, the geography of the 360 maintenance set up is still a real pain in the backside. And the fact that they’re struggling to get 9 out of 21 units into service clearly highlights fundamental issues. As for the Silver Spanner award, the cynic in me would argue that because they were so bad in the first place, anything would a major improvement(!); but credit where credit is due.

Yep, can’t disagree with any of that! Internally the Meridians are worse than the 360s, in standard at least.

I have sometimes wondered whether the ultimate plan is to wait until the 350s become available. For me, the lack of refurbishment progress (and rather plastic remark on it by Will Roger’s in Modern Railways) could be a sign that the 360s aren’t long term - no point investing time or money in something if it’s not hanging around. I also believe that they go off lease in only several years’ time (something like 2027?); but admittedly I am not sure on this. Admittedly, this is speculation and doesn’t belong in this thread.

There is a refurbishment plan being signed off internally, so it should be a case of when rather than if. That also points towards intended longevity with the franchise.

 

[QSK19]

Yep, can’t disagree with any of that! Internally the Meridians are worse than the 360s, in standard at least.



There is a refurbishment plan being signed off internally, so it should be a case of when rather than if. That also points towards intended longevity with the franchise.

Ah great, that’s very reassuring to know. I’ve said a few times before that, provided the 360s get a good dose of TLC, they would be a super train for the Connect services. Hopefully this puts them one step closer to that.

 

[baz962]

Ah great, that’s very reassuring to know. I’ve said a few times before that, provided the 360s get a good dose of TLC, they would be a super train for the Connect services. Hopefully this puts them one step closer to that.

Pretty sure the union told us that we have them for seven years and that any rumours of getting other units were untrue.

 

[QSK19]

Pretty sure the union told us that we have them for seven years and that any rumours of getting other units were untrue.

Ah yes, now you say it, 2028 does ring a bell.

 

[43066]

Pretty sure the union told us that we have them for seven years and that any rumours of getting other units were untrue.

Isn’t that only because that’s when the franchise ends (it was put back to 2030 when the NRCs came in)?

They will likely continue beyond that as they’re only mid life and theoretically good for another 20+ years.

 

[Western Sunset]

If EMR can't even put the correct dilution of screenwash into their units (post #3202), I wonder what this says about their maintenance regime.

 

[Darandio]

If EMR can't even put the correct dilution of screenwash into their units (post #3202), I wonder what this says about their maintenance regime.

I'm not sure the post actually says that?

 

[43066]

If EMR can't even put the correct dilution of screenwash into their units (post #3202), I wonder what this says about their maintenance regime.

I'm not sure the post actually says that?

Unfortunately that is basically what happened. Something to do with the summer formulation not being replaced with the winter one early enough.

AIUI they’ve previously had issues with the more viscous winter formulation smudging/causing like blockages, hence changing it out.

 

[Bikeman78]

Unfortunately that is basically what happened. Something to do with the summer formulation not being replaced with the winter one early enough.

AIUI they’ve previously had issues with the more viscous winter formulation smudging/causing like blockages, hence changing it out.

Why does a 360 need different screenwash for different seasons? My car has the same all year round.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Why does a 360 need different screenwash for different seasons? My car has the same all year round.

As alluded to in the post you quoted, the "summer" formulation has a higher freezing point and therefore isn't much use in the depths of winter. The "winter" formulation will work at much lower temperatures, but tends to be sort of greasy and isn't ideal for use all year round. FYI you can also buy "winter" screenwash for your car, again with a much lower freezing point

 

[Kneedown]

The DfT may not be bothered to strip EMR of the contract due to poor maintenance, but say if it gets taken over by the OLR so the same staff, who are being negligent, could be tuped over then this problem still would continue to persist.

Where is the evidence that staff are being negligent?
Problems with the maintenence regime do not imply negligence, and the front line staff do their best with the resources and knowledge they have.

 

[QSK19]

The DfT may not be bothered to strip EMR of the contract.

I doubt that they would at all. The fact that they made the decision to award the franchise to the only bidder left in the running was disgraceful - and saying it was awarded following a competitive process was the icing on the cake!

The TOC has no incentive to do anything given that they’re safe in the knowledge that they’ll get their management fee come what may with no risk of being stripped of the contract. That’s not to say that EMR is not doing anything; but the point about being able to get away with doing nothing still applies.

Where is the evidence that staff are being negligent?
Problems with the maintenence regime do not imply negligence, and the front line staff do their best with the resources and knowledge they have.

Correct. They can’t help it if they’re given a bag of broken tools to work with in the first place!

 

[Mikey C]

Why does a 360 need different screenwash for different seasons? My car has the same all year round.

If you buy concentrated screenwash for your car, then the instructions say you should heavily dilute it for summer use, and much less for winter use, so that it's an effective antifreeze.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Correct. They can’t help it if they’re given a bag of broken tools to work with in the first place!

My contact on the engineering side of another TOC said that, recently, flooring and other details had to be replaced on units at the end of the lease to get them up to standard, even though they were going for scrap.

If it is indeed the case that the 360s were received in the state you suggest I wonder how how the previous lessees were allowed to return the 360s in that state? Or was the EMR lease at a reduced price to reflect that maintenance work was outstanding & to be done but EMR have just 'taken the money and run' - (or, not run).

 

[Trainbike46]

My contact on the engineering side of another TOC said that, recently, flooring and other details had to be replaced on units at the end of the lease to get them up to standard, even though they were going for scrap.

If it is indeed the case that the 360s were received in the state you suggest I wonder how how the previous lessees were allowed to return the 360s in that state? Or was the EMR lease at a reduced price to reflect that maintenance work was outstanding & to be done but EMR have just 'taken the money and run' - (or, not run).

The previous lessee was Greater Anglia, and therefore Abellio at that time. There was some back maintenance due to issues with maintenance facilities at GA at that time.
EMR was of course at the time also an Abellio TOC

 

[ChrisC]

The previous lessee was Greater Anglia, and therefore Abellio at that time. There was some back maintenance due to issues with maintenance facilities at GA at that time.
EMR was of course at the time also an Abellio TOC

The contrast between GA and EMR is unbelievable. I recently had a few days in Norwich and did trips out on lovely new, often lightly loaded 3 carriage trains, operating on very much rural branch lines to Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth, Sheringham and the East Suffolk Line. I do accept that some of these routes are very busy in the summer holiday season. What a contrast to the old 2 carriage EMR 158 units also departing from Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street, serving so many major cities. Whilst I travelled in comfort on lightly loaded GA trains there were crowds of people boarding the EMR Liverpool trains. The contrast with the EMR Class 360 trains and other routes out of London is somewhat similar.

 

[QSK19]

The contrast between GA and EMR is unbelievable. I recently had a few days in Norwich and did trips out on lovely new, often lightly loaded 3 carriage trains, operating on very much rural branch lines to Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth, Sheringham mad the East Suffolk Line. I do accept that some of these routes are very busy in the summer holiday season. What a contrast to the old 2 carriage EMR 158 units also departing from Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street, serving so many major cities. Whilst I travelled in comfort on lightly loaded GA trains there were crowds of people boarding the EMR Liverpool trains. The contrast with the EMR Class 360 trains and other routes out of London is somewhat similar.

My theory, which I’ve said before, is that GA and WMR (the latter also being ex-Abellio) got their train requirements in whilst quality was still a requirement. Funding enabled them to get new trains to a decent standard, particularly GA’s Stadlers.

EMR’s train requirements - in particular the non-IC operations - were a victim of very unfortunate timing in that DfT cost cutting (and then Covid) were severely limiting factors in terms of what EMR had available to them. The only options were mid-life, knackered cascaded stock badly in need of interior TLC.

Had EMR’s Electrics/Connect train requirements been submitted before DfT budget constraints, I can’t help but think that, whilst they may still have got the 360s, the internal refurbishment could well have been done to the quality as outlined in the franchise commitment and in a timely fashion. But here we are 2.5 years in and nothing tangible yet.

If it is indeed the case that the 360s were received in the state you suggest I wonder how how the previous lessees were allowed to return the 360s in that state? Or was the EMR lease at a reduced price to reflect that maintenance work was outstanding & to be done but EMR have just 'taken the money and run' - (or, not run).

I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if they got a cheaper lease rate for the 360s with the maintenance issues. The 379s could have been the other contenders, but it has been mentioned many times on here that their lease costs are high (and 30 units is too many for the Connect service). New build 745 derivatives could have done the job too, but again, financial outlay is the issue.

Whilst most of us won’t know for sure (because it’ll be commercially sensitive EMR/DfT information - those RF users privy to this wouldn’t be allowed to share anything with the rest of us), yes, a reduced leasing cost would have certainly been a factor.

 

[Merle Haggard]

M

Whilst most of us won’t know for sure (because it’ll be commercially sensitive EMR/DfT information - those RF users privy to this wouldn’t be allowed to share anything with the rest of us), yes, a reduced leasing cost would have certainly been a factor.

Indeed. The passenger who pays for some of the lease costs, the taxpayer who provide the balance, and the passenger, again, who uses them; none of these are allowed to know the details because of 'commercial sensitivity' even when the outcome is demonstrably poor. Am I the only one to think this is outrageous?

If

 

[QSK19]

Indeed. The passenger who pays for some of the lease costs, the taxpayer who provide the balance, and the passenger, again, who uses them; none of these are allowed to know the details because of 'commercial sensitivity' even when the outcome is demonstrably poor. Am I the only one to think this is outrageous?

If

No, not at all - I fully agree too. It annoys me when we see TOCs’ business plans and crucial information is withheld. For example, BPC 11 in EMR’s ‘National Rail Contract Business Plan Commitments 2022/23’ covers the Class 360 refurbishment and one of the parts of BPC 11 reads “…the Operator shall (a) by no later than [REDACTED] for the works required to provide the Class 360 Fleet Refurbishment.”

Again, I fully appreciate that some types of information must remain strictly confidential (I am an HR Manager; so I know all about maintaining confidentiality!); but the taxpayer is a key stakeholder in the railways and deserves to see more transparency.

 

[spotify95]

Bloody hell, what are EMR even doing nowadays?!

The 17:07 from Corby is a 4 car! How the hell do EMR not have 12 operational units out of 21?!

Good showing yet again...

 

[TheBigD]

LNER are bussing Corby-Grantham for a couple of weekends in January.

You'd like to think that there won't be any 4 car formations then, but I suspect there will be.

 

[Lewisham2221]

On related news, the 14.39 from Corby is a 4 car! Are you telling me that EMR don't have 12 serviceable 360s?!

11 in service from a fleet of 21, so why are 10 not available for service?

More short formations today! This time it is the 07.13 from WEL to COR.
How do they not have 12 out of 21 serviceable units... not a big ask! Methinks they should have also bought the 360/2s as well, rather than let them go to scrap!

4-car unit on the 20.15 from London St Pancras to Corby this evening. Completely full and standing with not a free seat until Bedford. Carpets are filthy but the disgrace is they can't keep at least 12 serviceable units from a fleet of 21. Shocking maintenance standards.

It's happening again! 07.13 from Wellingborough to Corby. Formed of 360116 only.

HOW THE HELL HAVE EMR NOT GOT 12 OUT OF 21 OPERATIONAL UNITS!!! Buy the 360/2s NOW I say, at least having a fleet of 24 means there's more likelihood of 12 operational units.

Today 3 out of the 6 diagrams are now operating as 4-car units yet again. The services are full and standing, absolutely rammed solid.

9 serviceable units out of a fleet of 21 is an appalling level of performance.
...
9 serviceable units out of a fleet of 21 is atrocious performance.

The 17:07 from Corby is a 4 car! How the hell do EMR not have 12 operational units out of 21?!

We get it. It's a sorry state of affairs. And if you're using the service regularly it's understandably and undoubtedly beyond frustrating. But do we really need the same comments every time a service is short formed? AFAIK nobody has tried to defend the poor performance, but some of the obstacles have been explained, as have the reasons why additional units wouldn't solve the problems.

 

[fgwrich]

We get it. It's a sorry state of affairs. And if you're using the service regularly it's understandably and undoubtedly beyond frustrating. But do we really need the same comments every time a service is short formed? AFAIK nobody has tried to defend the poor performance, but some of the obstacles have been explained, as have the reasons why additional units wouldn't solve the problems.

Sometimes this forum really needs a like button...