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End of Pennine in Skipton?

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Given that one of the factors in Pennine's demise was competition from Transdev on established Pennine routes to the south west of Skipton - and Transdev will benefit from the end of this competition - I feel that maybe Transdev ought to have some moral responsibility to provide alternatives to Pennine's other services. It surely wouldn't be too difficult to add a bus to the schedules of routes coming in from Burnley or Keighley to provide services to Settle, Malham and locally. It would get some local goodwill and they might find it even makes money!

I can follow your reasoning as regards the Skipton area into East Lancashire where TransDev were in direct competition with Pennine, but talk of TransDev running to Malham or Settle where they had no presence previously is not one that I can agree with your aspirations regarding this matter unfortunately.
 
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KendalKing

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This is very sad and has come at the wrong time as North Yorkshire clearly are not in the mood to provide a subsidised alternative to the previous commercial services. The 580 was a key service from Skipton up into the dales and the replacement 58 seems pretty derisory.

Given that one of the factors in Pennine's demise was competition from Transdev on established Pennine routes to the south west of Skipton - and Transdev will benefit from the end of this competition - I feel that maybe Transdev ought to have some moral responsibility to provide alternatives to Pennine's other services. It surely wouldn't be too difficult to add a bus to the schedules of routes coming in from Burnley or Keighley to provide services to Settle, Malham and locally. It would get some local goodwill and they might find it even makes money!

Keighley & District used to have an outstation at Settle between April 1994 and October 1995, unsure what services, if any were operated.

Also Keighley & District used to operate, an Summer Saturday express service (Service 200) between Bradford and Morecambe, calling at Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Ingleton, using Leyland Olympians.
 

Robertj21a

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This is very sad and has come at the wrong time as North Yorkshire clearly are not in the mood to provide a subsidised alternative to the previous commercial services. The 580 was a key service from Skipton up into the dales and the replacement 58 seems pretty derisory.

Given that one of the factors in Pennine's demise was competition from Transdev on established Pennine routes to the south west of Skipton - and Transdev will benefit from the end of this competition - I feel that maybe Transdev ought to have some moral responsibility to provide alternatives to Pennine's other services. It surely wouldn't be too difficult to add a bus to the schedules of routes coming in from Burnley or Keighley to provide services to Settle, Malham and locally. It would get some local goodwill and they might find it even makes money!


All very true, but Transdev is a business that has to make a profit so, nowadays, little or no chance of it/anybody following the moral approach to such issues.

Robert
 

Deerfold

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Keighley & District used to have an outstation at Settle between April 1994 and October 1995, unsure what services, if any were operated.

Also Keighley & District used to operate, an Summer Saturday express service (Service 200) between Bradford and Morecambe, calling at Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Ingleton, using Leyland Olympians.

Saturday and Sunday - though unfortunately I couldn't get from Ripponden to Keighley in time to use it on a Sunday, so only used it on a Saturday (and then only as far as Ripponden). I only recall it operating from Keighley - I'll see if I can find an old timetable...

This appears to have been a remnant of various services between Lancaster/Morecambe and points in West Yorkshire numbered 200 or X80.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Saturday and Sunday - though unfortunately I couldn't get from Ripponden to Keighley in time to use it on a Sunday, so only used it on a Saturday (and then only as far as Ripponden). I only recall it operating from Keighley - I'll see if I can find an old timetable...

This appears to have been a remnant of various services between Lancaster/Morecambe and points in West Yorkshire numbered 200 or X80.

I think this is the one to which you refer?
 

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Solent&Wessex

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Keighley & District used to have an outstation at Settle between April 1994 and October 1995, unsure what services, if any were operated.

Also Keighley & District used to operate, an Summer Saturday express service (Service 200) between Bradford and Morecambe, calling at Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Ingleton, using Leyland Olympians.

The outstation was Ingfield Northern Rose. They did NYCC tendered minibus work mainly, Settle - Horton, Settle town circular, and a schooldays only service from Malham to Settle.
 

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34D

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Saturday and Sunday - though unfortunately I couldn't get from Ripponden to Keighley in time to use it on a Sunday, so only used it on a Saturday (and then only as far as Ripponden). I only recall it operating from Keighley - I'll see if I can find an old timetable...

This appears to have been a remnant of various services between Lancaster/Morecambe and points in West Yorkshire numbered 200 or X80.

Didn't this call at Doncaster at some point? Doncaster to Lancaster rings a bell? Anyone?
 

Baxenden Bank

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Didn't this call at Doncaster at some point? Doncaster to Lancaster rings a bell? Anyone?

Ring the bell, once to stop normally, twice for an emergency stop! Should try that today with kids messing about. <D

In answer to your question, yes it did. Certainly in 1993/94. I have a copy of Lancashire timetable leaflet number 150, dated 23 August 1993 which confirms such.

Basically different times / routes according to the time of year and day of the week, for example;
Tuesdays (all year) a round trip from Morecambe to Doncaster (Ribble 200)
Saturdays (summer) a round trip Morecambe to Bradford but, in winter, extended to Doncaster.

On summer Saturdays there was also a round trip from Leeds to Middleton Towers operated by Keighley and District.

The origins of the route are the 'Ribble Express' services which, at one time, operated several times per day between Leeds and Ingleton, continuing to either Lancaster / Morecambe or Kendal / The Lake District. These were additional to the hourly joint Ribble / Pennine all stops service.

Other variations of service 200 operated to get students to / from Lancaster University on Fridays / Sundays.
 
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KendalKing

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Noticed today Ingleton Depot has a Sold sign on it

Thats interesting, when you consider this previous post.

Although related to Pennine Motor Services, this concerns mainly Stagecoach, but mods, feel free to duplicate this post in the Pennine thread.

Stagecoach Cumbrian and North Lancs have confirmed to me, via e-mail this morning, that their operation of Ingleton outstation, and route 80 from there to Lancaster, is unaffected by the decision by Pennine to close. In fact, the operations manager at Lancaster says that Pennine is ceasing to run buses, but the property side of the business is unaffected, and so the outstation will carry on as normal.
 
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Tetchytyke

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ivanhoe

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I think the age of the Pennine Buses give you a clue as why Pennine stopped. There was very little in it for them before any North Yorks cuts and we should all be grateful that Pennine survived because of the generosity of the family owner. I suspect that the North York cuts will be reversed in part after the elections last week, but much too late for Pennine.
 

Deerfold

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That is not really the same as "having a moral responsibility", which RELL6L seemed to suggest in his earlier posting.

Indeed, but it is why they run the service Arctic Troll pointed out.

As a user, they do seem to be a reasonable company; about 18 months ago they introduced 2 unsubsidised later services on the 25 past my house and seem to be sticking with them whilst usage slowly builds up. They doubled the daytime frequency of the 25, filling the paths formerly used by the NYCC-subsidised 78A between Airedale Hospital and Keighley.

When they won the contract to run between Skipton and Grassington on Sundays they took the initiative to run through services from Manchester.

They seem to have been criticised for extending their popular 28 and 29 services to Skipton but this is only one of several initiatives from the company.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I think the age of the Pennine Buses give you a clue as why Pennine stopped. There was very little in it for them before any North Yorks cuts and we should all be grateful that Pennine survived because of the generosity of the family owner. I suspect that the North York cuts will be reversed in part after the elections last week, but much too late for Pennine.

Whilst they had some older vehicles, many were 52 reg (or similar) low floor disabled access kneeling Darts, considerably newer than many of the buses Transdev use on the 28 / 29 and other services.
 

lyndhurst25

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I passed the Skipton depot today. Unlike Ingleton, Settle and Barnoldswick, this depot doesn't seem to be for sale at the moment. You have to wonder why such a small bus company needed to have four depots when the big firms have found it more economical to shut smaller out-stations and centralise everything. At Skipton they have installed security fencing but there was some activity going on. At least four Dennis Darts still present, one of which has been painted white, presumably for resale to another firm.
 

Deerfold

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Whilst they had some older vehicles, many were 52 reg (or similar) low floor disabled access kneeling Darts, considerably newer than many of the buses Transdev use on the 28 / 29 and other services.

Half the Mainline fleet is from 2009 ( http://www.lancashirebus.co.uk/Mainline.htm - I remember seeing the new buses from then ). I'm not sure how old the rest is but I'd estimate 2005-7. Generally all the Mainline buses interwork - it's been a long time since I've seen anything as old as a 52-reg on them.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Half the Mainline fleet is from 2009 ( http://www.lancashirebus.co.uk/Mainline.htm - I remember seeing the new buses from then ). I'm not sure how old the rest is but I'd estimate 2005-7. Generally all the Mainline buses interwork - it's been a long time since I've seen anything as old as a 52-reg on them.

The Mainline fleet is polarised. There are just over 30 Mainline vehicles of which just over half are 58 plate B7RLEs which are leased. Then there are slightly fewer Y reg B10BLEs; however, they are in exceptional condition, better than anything of similar age in Stagecoach or other larger fleets.
 

Deerfold

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The Mainline fleet is polarised. There are just over 30 Mainline vehicles of which just over half are 58 plate B7RLEs which are leased. Then there are slightly fewer Y reg B10BLEs; however, they are in exceptional condition, better than anything of similar age in Stagecoach or other larger fleets.

Hadn't realised they were that old. Not that much older than a 52-reg though.
 

Solent&Wessex

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The Mainline fleet is polarised. There are just over 30 Mainline vehicles of which just over half are 58 plate B7RLEs which are leased. Then there are slightly fewer Y reg B10BLEs; however, they are in exceptional condition, better than anything of similar age in Stagecoach or other larger fleets.

It was a Y reg I saw in Skipton the other day. And the Transdev service that runs past my house is almost exclusively in the hands of X and Y reg B10s.
 

Bovverboy

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I passed the Skipton depot today. Unlike Ingleton, Settle and Barnoldswick, this depot doesn't seem to be for sale at the moment.

There may not be any boards indicating the fact, but the Skipton depot is being advertised by estate agents as being to let, or, might sell.

http://www.westlakeandco.co.uk/pdfs/1400833508.pdf

You have to wonder why such a small bus company needed to have four depots

Of the four depots owned in recent years, only three have been operational. After the Ingleton/Lancaster service was cut back to Giggleswick, Ingleton depot was nowhere near any Pennine service routes. Instead of housing one operational Pennine vehicle it has been instead used to store a 'retained' withdrawn vehicle, latterly a Leyland National, and previously, it has been reported, the ex-Laycock Leopard which has more recently been stored at Barnoldswick.
The remaining three spaces inside the Ingleton depot have continued to be leased to Stagecoach, as they have been (to Stagecoach & predecessors) for decades.
Most of the Pennine depots may have been small, but they have always been spread over a fair geographical area, effectively made greater by the quality of the roads separating them.

when the big firms have found it more economical to shut smaller out-stations and centralise everything.

It couldn't be said that Pennine has made a point of expanding the small depot policy in recent decades - the only occasion when the number of depots actually increased was when Laycock's were taken over in 1972, bringing the Barnoldswick depot into the fold.
On the contrary, it could be said there was some centralisation when the Broughton Road premises were brought into use, since two existing depots (Gargrave and Skipton) were then closed.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Indeed, but it is why they run the service Arctic Troll pointed out.

As a user, they do seem to be a reasonable company; about 18 months ago they introduced 2 unsubsidised later services on the 25 past my house and seem to be sticking with them whilst usage slowly builds up. They doubled the daytime frequency of the 25, filling the paths formerly used by the NYCC-subsidised 78A between Airedale Hospital and Keighley.

When they won the contract to run between Skipton and Grassington on Sundays they took the initiative to run through services from Manchester.

They seem to have been criticised for extending their popular 28 and 29 services to Skipton but this is only one of several initiatives from the company.

But not reasonable enough to consider innovation?

Skipton to Burnley now has four buses per hour, all via Barnoldswick, some doubling back via Earby as well - the extra buses to Skipton simply being extensions of existing workings.

Why not be innovative and have a direct (and thus faster and more attractive) service? The existing route is tedious - I last did it on a Sunday when every route variant was served. I lost the will to live long before I arrived in Skipton! More recently I did Keighley to Burnley. So much running time the bus left Keighley a few minutes late, dawdled all the way and still had to wait for time en-route.

However, I can't see the current level of service lasting too long. Long enough for memories of the competition to fade then a gradual reduction back to 2 buses per hour. The historic frequency between Burnley and Skipton having been hourly on the Ribble service pre-deregulation.

I generally have high regard for Transdev services - quality vehicles well presented and excellent publicity, but I fear they are suffering from the 'crumbling edge of quality' as passneger volumes / ENCTS re-imbursement declines.

People have suggested Pennine ran old buses - my local First Group subsidiary (First Potteries) had the cheek a few weeks ago to launch (yet another) new livery - the best they could put on show was a tarted up 05 reg bus! Their newest buses locally are 06 reg deckers.
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I passed the Skipton depot today. Unlike Ingleton, Settle and Barnoldswick, this depot doesn't seem to be for sale at the moment. You have to wonder why such a small bus company needed to have four depots when the big firms have found it more economical to shut smaller out-stations and centralise everything. At Skipton they have installed security fencing but there was some activity going on. At least four Dennis Darts still present, one of which has been painted white, presumably for resale to another firm.

Settle and Ingleton are 'buildings to park buses in' rather than full depots and have been owned for many years, so I suppose there was no need to change things, especially with Ribble / Stagecoach paying rent on one of them.

Big companies close their small depots / out-stations, run the services from other depots for a while, then decide it is uneconomical to operate the route due to all the dead mileage involved. Grassington for example. Many National Bus Company subsidiaries had small depots / outstations because they worked (at that point in time when bus services were much busier) - buses ran full into town in the monring and back from town at night - no dead mileage. The accountants who now run the industry just don't understand such things. As mentioned up thread, Grassington was perhaps a little over the top, but a secure yard with a cabin does the job nicely.
 

Deerfold

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But not reasonable enough to consider innovation?

Skipton to Burnley now has four buses per hour, all via Barnoldswick, some doubling back via Earby as well - the extra buses to Skipton simply being extensions of existing workings.

Why not be innovative and have a direct (and thus faster and more attractive) service? The existing route is tedious - I last did it on a Sunday when every route variant was served. I lost the will to live long before I arrived in Skipton! More recently I did Keighley to Burnley. So much running time the bus left Keighley a few minutes late, dawdled all the way and still had to wait for time en-route.

However, I can't see the current level of service lasting too long. Long enough for memories of the competition to fade then a gradual reduction back to 2 buses per hour. The historic frequency between Burnley and Skipton having been hourly on the Ribble service pre-deregulation.

Well there were the innovations I mentioned they'd introduced. If you think a faster route might be worthwhile I'd recommend suggesting it to them - once the X43 extended to Skipton (and Keighley). I don't know the road network well enough there to know the best route - would this be similar to the Sunday 872 route which seems to chop half the time off Colne - Barnoldswick?

The Keighley - Burnley route suffers from large variations in traffic volumes - it's not uncommon for the 25 to arrive in Keighley too late to leave on time.
 

KendalKing

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Has anyone used NYCC's new 58 service yet or seen how things are going?

or any the other services, which NYCC have taken on.


I can't see the current level of service lasting too long. Long enough for memories of the competition to fade then a gradual reduction back to 2 buses per hour.

A lot would depend on how well used the services are.

Why not be innovative and have a direct (and thus faster and more attractive) service?

I am with Deerfold on this one.

If you think a faster route might be worthwhile I'd recommend suggesting it to them - once the X43 extended to Skipton.

If my memory serves me correctly the X43 use to run Manchester - Skipton in the 70's, sometime in the mid 80's it was cut back to run Manchester - Earby/Barnoldswick.
 
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