End of Yellow Front Ends?

[Marklund]

They might try even harder if you blindfolded them. :roll::roll::roll:

 

[Darandio]

If anything, not having yellow panels could encourage lookout staff to become more vigilant and alert, which isn't a bad thing at all.

Complete enthusiast speak, spoken only by someone that is only 'interested' in yellow panels because they want to see how a livery looks.

 

[Harbornite]

They might try even harder if you blindfolded them. :roll::roll::roll:

No one is recommending blindfolds. Bit of a silly comparison because it suggests that you have no vision whatsoever, which clearly wouldn't be the case. :roll:
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Complete enthusiast speak, spoken only by someone that is only 'interested' in yellow panels because they want to see how a livery looks.

Not really. I'm with the RSSB on this one, who I assume haven't consulted any enthusiasts on the matter.

What is it with the resistance to change on here?
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Has anyone on here been involved in an incident where a train was only spotted at the last second? If so, what happened and would a lack of yellow ends have meant that instead of only having a few seconds to get clear of the line, someone would have actually been hit?

No one seems to have bothered answering this. Says it all, really.

 

[trash80]

I guess the resistance is for something to change thats worked for a long time with no apparent reason why, its not like the yellow paint is any more toxic than any other shades.

 

[Harbornite]

Has anyone on here been involved in an incident where a train was only spotted at the last second? If so, what happened and would a lack of yellow ends have meant that instead of only having a few seconds to get clear of the line, someone would have actually been hit?

No one seems to have bothered answering this. Says it all, really.

 

[Trog]

We are resistant to change because decades of real life practical experience tells us that this is a very bad idea, and we don't like people who want to do things that may end up with us getting killed.

 

[Harbornite]

I guess the resistance is for something to change thats worked for a long time with no apparent reason why, its not like the yellow paint is any more toxic than any other shades.

No one is saying that yellow is toxic, and quite frankly I couldn't care what colour is used. I just don't understand the resistance to the change in legislation bought about by the RSSB.
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We are resistant to change because decades of real life practical experience tells us that this is a very bad idea, and we don't like people who want to do things that may end up in us getting killed.

How many incidents have there been in which the yellow panel has helped to save a life in recent years? You say you have had decades of experience, but you have probably become used to working with rolling stock with poor headlights. There are obviously other safeguards in place for p-way staff, and I'm sure that the RSSB will have considered these or else they wouldn't have allowed this change.

 

[trash80]

How many incidents have there been in which the yellow panel has helped to save a life?

I guess many but its much easier to prove a negative.

 

[najaB]

They might try even harder if you blindfolded them.

There is a certain logic behind Harbornite's post - there is a tendency for people to take more risks when things are perceived to have been made 'safer'.

A classic example of this is a comparison of accident rates for Cirrus small aircraft equipped with emergency parachutes as compared with those that are not. Fatalities are significantly lower thanks to the parachutes, but the frequency of incidents that would require deployment of the parachute is higher. Pilots take risks that they wouldn't otherwise take because they know they have the parachute as backup if their skill runs out.

I'm not saying this to say that yellow fronts should be removed, but rather to give context to Harbornite's post.

 

[RobShipway]

We are resistant to change because decades of real life practical experience tells us that this is a very bad idea, and we don't like people who want to do things that may end up with us getting killed.

For me I would agree if there is very conclusive evidence that a train with a yellow end saves lives because it is seen more easily, if it was not for the fact that I believe that per the number of population per country round Europe, we have no different amount of accidents from trains then any countries do?

Being someone that is having to go through change themselves with their job as I have recently been told that I am being made redundant, I can understand the reluctance to change. However, is there statistics either way that shows a train is not safe without a yellow end on the front or is it that safety systems on trains over the last 20 years or more have got better such that there is no need to have trains painted yellow at the front?

 

[Harbornite]

I guess many but its much easier to prove a negative.

I should have added to my other post that I'm referring to recent years. I accept that there was a genuine need for yellow in the early days of Electric and diesel stock because they were so quiet and their headlights were poor. As I've said elsewhere on here, I only think that a handful of rolling stock classes have headlights that are sufficiently bright enough.
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There is a certain logic behind Harbornite's post - there is a tendency for people to take more risks when things are perceived to have been made 'safer'.

A classic example of this is a comparison of accident rates for Cirrus small aircraft equipped with emergency parachutes as compared with those that are not. Fatalities are significantly lower thanks to the parachutes, but the frequency of incidents that would require deployment of the parachute is higher. Pilots take risks that they wouldn't otherwise take because they know they have the parachute as backup if their skill runs out.

I'm not saying this to say that yellow fronts should be removed, but rather to give context to Harbornite's post.

Thanks. I don't think I've put my point across as well as I've could have done. I accept the need for yellow panels with the majority of stock that is in service today, I am just doubting the need for this legislation in relation to the latest rolling stock types that have high density lights.

 

[Trog]

How many times....

There are situations where even the modern headlights do not work as well as normal, perhaps where due to a curve they are shining off into the fields. Or when bright sunshine causes heat shimmer and the beam from the light is bent, diffused, and just plain drowned out in the sunlight. In this case the same effects that distort the beam from the light, also distort the image of the front of the on coming train, with the yellow area changing shape and flashing in a very eye catching way. On an OHLE equipped railway the yellow end also flashes as the shadows of the OHL portals pass across it, which is again eye catching.

It is not broken, it costs almost nothing, so don't try and fix it.

 

[Marklund]

Thanks. I don't think I've put my point across as well as I've could have done. I accept the need for yellow panels with the majority of stock that is in service today, I am just doubting the need for this legislation in relation to the latest rolling stock types that have high density lights.

You've been told on numerous occasions that they're fine on the straight, but in a heat haze and on a curve, they're not. :roll:

 

[Harbornite]

You've been told on numerous occasions that they're fine on the straight, but in a heat haze and on a curve, they're not. :roll:

But in those instances, the trains probably had poor headlights and yellow panels were necessary. :roll:

 

[Marklund]

But in those instances, the trains probably had poor headlights and yellow panels were necessary. :roll:

What? Class 68's? :roll:
This is becoming tedious with you. You've been told from people who use the panels that they're still necessary.

 

[Harbornite]

There are situations where even the modern headlights do not work as well as normal, perhaps where due to a curve they are shining off into the fields. Or when bright sunshine causes heat shimmer and the beam from the light is bent, diffused, and just plain drowned out in the sunlight. In this case the same effects that distort the beam from the light, also distort the image of the front of the on coming train, with the yellow area changing shape and flashing in a very eye catching way. On an OHLE equipped railway the yellow end also flashes as the shadows of the OHL portals pass across it, which is again eye catching.

It is not broken, it costs almost nothing, so don't try and fix it.

There are some good points there, you would have thought that the RSSB would have considered such instances before going ahead with the changes? However, when you say modern, how old are we talking? I'd say that most stock from the 2000's and earlier are not suitable for having yellow panels removed, and I've not advocated this in any of my posts.

On another note, if there were concerns about visibility along long straights of track, then why not equip lookouts with binoculars?
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What? Class 68's? :roll:
This is becoming tedious with you. You've been told from people who use the panels that they're still necessary.

Well I'm getting bored of this. I don't expect to see a significant rise in trackworker deaths due to collisions as trains without yellow are introduced. I'm with the RDSB on this one, but what do they know?

New vehicles introduced on to the network may still use yellow front ends, even where they comply with the headlamp requirements in the TSI, as this could be the choice of the operator, or indeed a potential outcome of assessing the risk of the change as described in the standard.

However, it does mean that it is possible for a train with vehicles without a yellow front end to be considered suitable to run on Britain's rail network, as long as the organisation introducing the train has complied with all the requirements to assess and manage the risk and the change, and has carried out suitable consultation with any affected parties (such as track workers).

http://www.rssb.co.uk/hot-topics/leading-health-and-safety-on-britains-railway

 

[Trog]

There is one good thing about this discussion after weeks of guff from both sides we finally have something real on the impact (deliberate joke there) of the EU on our lives to consider as we try and decide which way to vote in the EU referendum.

 

[Harbornite]

There is one good thing about this discussion after weeks of guff from both sides we finally have something real on the impact (deliberate joke there) of the EU on our lives to consider as we try and decide which way to vote in the EU referendum.

Indeed, makes a change to the usual stuff about migrants, trade and "sovereignty".
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I thought I'd post a link to this discussion on the issue (some of you will already be familiar with it)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101715-the-end-of-the-yellow-panel/


Some good points are raised on both sides of the debate, but I still stand by my original view. I don't see anything wrong with having trials of trains without yellow panels. I'm not advocating the removal of panels from the rolling stock that is currently in service and there won't be a massive rise in death tolls as more train are introduced without yellow. Anyway, the sad reality is that trackworkers are still occasionally killed by trains with yellow fronts, and in any case, relying solely on what is and what isn't visible is flawed.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't see anything wrong with having trials of trains without yellow panels.

There shouldn't need to be any trials, the decision has been made, the new group standard came into effect in April this year. It is the standard for new rolling stock.

As is often the case on the railway the debate continues long after the responsible authority has already made its decision, following consultation.

IMHO if trackworkers believe the RSSB isn't a sufficiently representative body to make this decision, or has consulted the wrong people, or has basically just made a mistake, that should be addressed elsewhere.

 

[rebmcr]

It's worth noting that even though this is no longer a legal requirement, TOCs could choose to retain the panels regardless — the same way they carry out other safety activities that are not legally required.

It's also possible in the future, with the rollout of ERTMS, that track lookouts could have a handheld display unit with the precise proven locations of any trains in the area.

 

[IanXC]

There is one good thing about this discussion after weeks of guff from both sides we finally have something real on the impact (deliberate joke there) of the EU on our lives to consider as we try and decide which way to vote in the EU referendum.

I'm not sure I agree... the RSSB seems to have chosen to reduce the number of GB specific regulations. So in that typically British way we're describing how we have chosen to interpret EU regulations as an EU problem.

It's worth noting that even though this is no longer a legal requirement, TOCs could choose to retain the panels regardless — the same way they carry out other safety activities that are not legally required.

I wonder which TOC will be the first to take the plunge? Imagine the reputational risk if the lack of a yellow front end was later identified as a casusal factor in an incident....

 

[Ianigsy]

I was interested to see the comparison with Sweden, because one of SJ's standard liveries for electric locos is all over gloss black, and the X2000 high speed passenger sets are chrome and a kind of matt pearl grey which would vanish on an overcast day.

Looking at some photos of modern units earlier, I think one of the things that's changed is that improvements in materials technology has allowed cab windows to become bigger- this is a balanced trade off as it the reduction in the visible area for track workers is traded against the improvement in the driver's opportunity to see them in the first place. This does mean that on a lot of modern units, once you discount the cab windows and their mountings (which are presumably subject to warranty), plus any corridor connections, the amount that can actually be painted yellow is about the same as the 1960s half height panels.

The other thing that's improved beyond imagination since the mid 1960s is portable communications technology- I'd have thought that if we aren't already at the stage where a driver and a track crew can all be made aware automatically that they're in the same section and how close they are, we can't be far off.

 

[Trog]

IMHO if trackworkers believe the RSSB isn't a sufficiently representative body to make this decision, or has consulted the wrong people, or has basically just made a mistake, that should be addressed elsewhere.

I wonder who they did consult, certainly heard nothing myself although as a relative nobody that is perhaps not surprising. Presumably not any one who actually works on track, as those of us who stand in front of on coming trains for a living seem to be on the whole quite keen on its retention.

One thing is for sure, try and drive past me in a train with no yellow front and dodgy lights, and I am going to go straight into my French Army impression.

 

[Harbornite]

I wonder who they did consult, certainly heard nothing myself although as a relative nobody that is perhaps not surprising. Presumably not any one who actually works on track, as those of us who stand in front of on coming trains for a living seem to be on the whole quite keen on its retention.

One thing is for sure, try and drive past me in a train with no yellow front and dodgy lights, and I am going to go straight into my French Army impression.

Perhaps they will consult staff in the areas where the TOC is planning to introduce trains without yellow panels? It's just a thought but it makes sense to me, we can't guarantee that the TOC's will actually want to ditch the yellow on their new stock because it's up to them to decide.

 

[Domh245]

Perhaps they will consult staff in the areas where the TOC is planning to introduce trains without yellow panels? It's just a thought but it makes sense to me, we can't guarantee that the TOC's will actually want to ditch the yellow on their new stock because it's up to them to decide.

All of the TPE renders so far have had black fronted stock, so that'll be one of the first yellowless TOCs. Crossrail Elizabeth Line will be another, as will GTR's new Moorgate stock.

 

[Harbornite]

All of the TPE renders so far have had black fronted stock, so that'll be one of the first yellowless TOCs. Crossrail Elizabeth Line will be another, as will GTR's new Moorgate stock.

Aye, so I'd expect consultations to begin with staff there before the new stock is introduced.

 

[sciisfun]

Just to put my two pence in, standing on the sea wall at Dawlish this morning, I could see the lights on the HST pulling out of the station before I could see the yellow panel on the front, and that was with me knowing it was there and looking for it, and that is as close to where P-Way guys are going to be as I'm likely to get. I also could see the dark outline of the train much before either of these, maybe what we need is dark colours, with hi-vis reflective speed whiskers!

 

[superalbs]

This has appeared without yellow front ends, sure looks weird with those lights though.
http://www.brightonbelle.com/news

 

[trash80]

Just to put my two pence in, standing on the sea wall at Dawlish this morning, I could see the lights on the HST pulling out of the station before I could see the yellow panel on the front, and that was with me knowing it was there and looking for it, and that is as close to where P-Way guys are going to be as I'm likely to get. I also could see the dark outline of the train much before either of these, maybe what we need is dark colours, with hi-vis reflective speed whiskers!

Well i suppose we can all give anecdotes for or against, last year at Wootton Wawen on a very bright sunny day i noticed the yellow front end of the approaching 172 before the lights. On a dull day it might be the other way around.

 

[Goldfish62]

Chances are we wouldn't even be having this discussion had the UK adopted continental practice from the 1930s onwards of a triangular headlight arrangement. Instead we carried on for almost half a century without any form of illumination on the front of trains.