EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Senex]

I happen to value preservation of the parliamentary democracy I live in ....

You see it as a parliamentary democracy. As far as the lower house is concerned, I see it as the "elective dictatorship" it was once described as by a very senior active politician, and as an "elective democracy" that in no way represents me or my interests as I have always lived in safe seats held by a party that I cannot and do not support and where my vote could never have any significance. As for the upper house, by any modern international comparison of democratic standards, that is just a very sick joke. The Brussels set-up is very far from perfect, but it's every bit as good as Westminster.

 

[AlterEgo]

Who elects MEPs that represent us? We do.
Who selects European Commissioners that represent our country? The Government that we elect. And even then they have to be ratified by the European Parliament.
So that's surely as democratic as Westminster, where we elect MPs and they form a Government and select the Lords?

It’s not as democratic at all. The issue isn’t in just electing some person to go to some parliament, it’s also about the nature of that parliament. Its powers, its makeup, its actual relevance to the people it’s supposed to represent.

The UK parliament is comprised of English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish people and they make decisions affecting the UK. Most people in the UK can identify with and understand the agendas of the different players in that parliament. The same cannot be said of the EU, where the UK is of course a small minority, and the vast majority of players in the EU parliament come from countries and cultures the British electorate do not understand. It’s fundamentally less capable of achieving true democracy, or at least a sense of it, than any British parliament (even with all the flaws Westminster has).

 

[AlterEgo]

You've taken my right, and that of your beloved countrymen, of freedom of movement. How much clearer can I put it - you've taken away my right, my freedom. We take freedom away from those committing crimes. Apart from watching ITV 2 once, I've committed no crime, yet my freedom's been taken away from me. It's not scaremongering, it's not tosh, it's real, it's tangible. it's solid.
You
have
taken
away
my
freedom.
Although I wasn't around in Hitler's time, even HE failed to do what you did with one cross (well, 17 ruddy million of them). Thanks, bud.

Nobody has removed freedom of movement.

 

[NSEFAN]

Nobody has removed freedom of movement.

Not yet, but is removal of freedom of movement to/from the European mainland one of the reasons for Brexit?

 

[tspaul26]

Can one have democracy without a demos? I think this is the question that the EU attempts and struggles to answer.

 

[tspaul26]

It would be unthinkable for the queen to refuse to invite the largest party to form a government, for instance, while this would be perfectly possible legally.

I don't think that this is so unthinkable. I can easily envisage at least two circumstances in which the largest party would not be invited to form HM Government.

 

[Bromley boy]

So not the EU's fault, but something that you're blaming them for.

Ah, we've gone from milky coffee to fizzy wine.
For what it's worth, I think free movement is a great idea, and every handyman, builder, scaffolder, electrician and plumber that I've dealt with in the past ten years has been English. And that includes the eight years that I lived in the borough with the lowest percentage of white British residents in the UK.

Of course it’s the EU’s “fault” - although that’s a strange way of putting it - free movement is an EU concept. It’s not an “either/or” situation. I don’t agree with this country’s failure to adopt the transitional period, but that doesn’t mean I support the underlying idea of wholesale freedom of movement.

Can you honestly not understand that other people may have concerns over immigration based on their experiences beyond your own frame of reference?

It wasn’t a big factor for me either but that doesn’t mean I automatically dismiss other peoples’ concerns. I’ve spoken to many ex tradespeople who would disagree with you but I suppose you’ll write them all off as little England racists for daring to criticise freedom of movement.

 

[Bromley boy]

No, I can't see any problems.

I’m afraid this statement reveals you aren’t looking at the situation critically. I prefer the Westminster system but I can acknowledge there are shortcomings with it.

On the other hand you won’t acknowledge a single flaw with your preferred system, even when valid criticisms are presented to you.

There’s little point in debating this any further as it’s becoming increasingly clear that you believe U.K system = bad, EU = good. You will never criticise it or identify a single flaw - so your view is more of a religious fervour than an opinion.

 

[najaB]

There’s little point in debating this any further as it’s becoming increasingly clear that you believe U.K system = bad, EU = good. You will never criticise it or identify a single flaw - so your view is more of a religious fervour than an opinion.

To be fair, you asked if @EM2 could see a problem as compared to the UK system. If they have basically the same flaws then his answer would be appropriate.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't think that this is so unthinkable. I can easily envisage at least two circumstances in which the largest party would not be invited to form HM Government.

I should probably have said party with a clear majority rather than largest party to exclude the hung parliament/coalition type scenario.

My overall point was that the system works largely on the basis of convention rather than codified rules.

 

[Howardh]

Nobody has removed freedom of movement.

Not yet, but on March 30 2019 it's gone. That's one of the key points about brexit - stopping all the immigrants getting in; if not - then can we accept the Single Market and the Customs Union which will (a) solve Ireland and (b) allow us to carry on after Brexit just as we are today?

 

[Bromley boy]

To be fair, you asked if @EM2 could see a problem as compared to the UK system. If they have basically the same flaws then his answer would be appropriate.

So I did.

My point still stands, though, as I don’t believe I’ve seen any acknowledgement about the points made earlier about the commissioner/parliament set up in the EU and how this is demonstrably less democratic than an elected house that originates legislation (albeit accepting this system isn’t perfect either).

That’s even before you get onto the fact the U.K. parliament is at least comprised of British people (not necessarily British born, of course) with British interests at heart rather than EU commissioners who swear an oath to act in the best interests of the EU rather than the U.K.

 

[Bromley boy]

Not yet, but on March 30 2019 it's gone. That's one of the key points about brexit - stopping all the immigrants getting in; if not - then can we accept the Single Market and the Customs Union which will (a) solve Ireland and (b) allow us to carry on after Brexit just as we are today?

Rubbish, we don’t know that. There will most likely be transitional arrangements in place.

Can you not see how “controlling immigration ourselves” is a completely different concept to “stopping all the immigrants getting in”. I believe immigration is a good thing, managed properly, but I don’t agree with full freedom of movement.

In any case you forget it is the intransigence of the EU that has created uncertainty for its own citizens, and for Brits living in Europe, as they initially refused to negotiate further on this matter until after the triggering of article 50.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ritish-voters-backed-brexit-creating-anxiety/

Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk on Tuesday united to block Theresa May's attempt to fast-track a deal which would have created an amnesty for British ex-pats and EU migrants in the UK post-Brexit.

Mrs May had proposed that EU workers currently living in the UK be allowed to remain in exchange for an agreement which gives British expats in the European Union the same rights.

She had hoped to announce a deal within weeks but while more than 20 EU nations have signalled they are prepared to agree to a reciprocal arrangement, Mrs Merkel has rebuffed Mrs May's attempts to come to an agreement.

 

[SteveP29]

while the UK offers 52 weeks, which are in fact the highest in Europe.

Don't kid yourself it's that brilliant, it's not all paid leave

As an example, my employer follows government policy and pays:
1st 6 weeks at 90% of salary
20 weeks at 50% of salary plus SMP
13 weeks @ SMP
13 weeks of NIL pay

 

[najaB]

That’s even before you get onto the fact the U.K. parliament is at least comprised of British people (not necessarily British born, of course) with British interests at heart rather than EU commissioners who swear an oath to act in the best interests of the EU rather than the U.K.

And the French Parliament will be full of French politicians, the Bundestag will be full of Germans,... And every one of the other 27 members will have exactly the same setup - a national parliament of some description and an EU commissioner in Brussels. There's nothing unique to be seen here.

 

[Bromley boy]

And the French Parliament will be full of French politicians, the Bundestag will be full of Germans,... And every one of the other 27 members will have exactly the same setup - a national parliament of some description and an EU commissioner in Brussels. There's nothing unique to be seen here.

Yes and each of those parliaments has surrendered vast swathes of sovereignty to the EU over a great many matters. The parliament will (or should) be acting in their national interest. The commissioners, however, will be acting in the interests of the EU.

That is not a system I wish the UK to be a part of.

 

[Howardh]

Rubbish, we don’t know that. There will most likely be transitional arrangements in place.

Oh g-r-e-a-t. We get a possible extra two years. Two years. Thanks a bunch. It would be a lot better for everyone, you included, if we simply abandoned this farce.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Yes and each of those parliaments has surrendered vast swathes of sovereignty to the EU over a great many matters. The parliament will (or should) be acting in their national interest. The commissioners, however, will be acting in the interests of the EU.

That is not a system I wish the UK to be a part of.

What really is a 'national interest'? Do you think I in Yorkshire on a minimum wage job, have the same interests as a city banker in London, or a farmer in Cornwall, or a Fisherman in Aberdeen. I live closer to the Netherlands and Belgium than to some parts of the UK.

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh g-r-e-a-t. We get a possible extra two years. Two years. Thanks a bunch. It would be a lot better for everyone, you included, if we simply abandoned this farce.

Well quite. Two years too many.

Thanks to my vote, and 17.4 million or so others, we are abandoning this farce.

 

[Bromley boy]

What really is a 'national interest'? Do you think I in Yorkshire on a minimum wage job, have the same interests as a city banker in London, or a farmer in Cornwall, or a Fisherman in Aberdeen. I live closer to the Netherlands and Belgium than to some parts of the UK.

You probably don't have the same interests.

But expanding that question, if you think the UK government struggles to balance your interests against an investment banker in London, why do you suppose the EU will be able to do a better job of balancing them against those of a financier working in Germany, a Spanish fisherman, a French champagne producer or a Greek shipping magnate?

I don't suppose those amongst the 17% and 20% unemployed in Spain and Greece respectively are too happy with the EU.

 

[DarloRich]

I thought leaving the EU wasn't going to cost us a penny.....................................

 

[najaB]

You probably don't have the same interests.

But expanding that question, if you think the UK government struggles to balance your interests against an investment banker in London, why do you suppose the EU will be able to do a better job of balancing them against those of a financier working in Germany, a Spanish fisherman, a French champagne producer or a Greek shipping magnate?

Taking that argument to the extreme - why would the UN be any good at balancing the needs of the Human Race any more than Dundee Council can balance the needs of someone from Broughty Ferry with the needs of someone from Menzieshill? We should just abolish all forms of government just look out for #1 all the time.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Taking that argument to the extreme - why would the UN be any good at balancing the needs of the Human Race any more than Dundee Council can balance the needs of someone from Broughty Ferry with the needs of someone from Menzieshill? We should just abolish all forms of government just look out for #1 all the time.

If the UN thinks that Saudi Arabia deserves a spot on the human rights council despite it’s horrible track record, as well the World Health Organisation (an agency of the UN) thinking Robert Mugabe could be a goodwill ambassador, I think it’s safe to say that it’s absolutely rubbish at that very thing.

 

[Bromley boy]

Taking that argument to the extreme - why would the UN be any good at balancing the needs of the Human Race? We should just abolish all forms of government just look out for #1 all the time.

I wasn't aware the UN was any good at balancing the needs of the Human Race.

We could abandon all forms of government, or perhaps we could stick to existing democratic, accountable, national systems without creating enormous, bloated, treaty-based vanity projects.

 

[najaB]

We could abandon all forms of government, or perhaps we could stick to existing democratic, accountable, national systems without creating enormous, bloated, treaty-based vanity projects.

Let me know when you find one.

 

[Howardh]

I thought leaving the EU wasn't going to cost us a penny.....................................

£40bn is something along the lines of £2000-2500 for every Brexit vote, however I'm not sure what a £billion is - £1,000,000,000?? But it's money that could be spent on the NHS instead - it would interesting if May came back to the public and said "do you really want us to send this money to Brussels, or shall we spend it on the NHS? and see which they choose - and if they choose the NHS that means we stay in the EU. Anyhow, there's only one magic money tree and all that money went to Northern Ireland, so the rest has to be found somewhere, and it's to be spent first before we get the *benefit* of not funding the EU (and getting some of it back) which will take years. And we still don't know whether we will be paying for "access".

Hands in your pockets, everyone

 

[Tim R-T-C]

You probably don't have the same interests.

But expanding that question, if you think the UK government struggles to balance your interests against an investment banker in London, why do you suppose the EU will be able to do a better job of balancing them against those of a financier working in Germany, a Spanish fisherman, a French champagne producer or a Greek shipping magnate?

I don't suppose those amongst the 17% and 20% unemployed in Spain and Greece respectively are too happy with the EU.

Thats my point, all government is compromise. So the idea of leaving the EU purely because a "national" parliament being at the top of the pile is more representative than a Europe-wide one, does not make any sense.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

We could abandon all forms of government, or perhaps we could stick to existing democratic, accountable, national systems without creating enormous, bloated, treaty-based vanity projects.

Accountable?

Our national parliament is certainly not that any more. Question the Prime Minister and get branded a traitor, mutineer and receive death threats...

 

[Howardh]

Accountable?

Our national parliament is certainly not that any more. Question the Prime Minister and get branded a traitor, mutineer and receive death threats...

And that's only her husband...

 

[Bromley boy]

Thats my point, all government is compromise. So the idea of leaving the EU purely because a "national" parliament being at the top of the pile is more representative than a Europe-wide one, does not make any sense.

So you contention is that the U.K. parliament is not representative enough, and your solution is to replace it with a “government” presiding over an entire continent of almost thirty politically, economically and culturally different member states and almost 700 million people?

Huh?