EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

That’s even before you get onto the fact the U.K. parliament is at least comprised of British people (not necessarily British born, of course) with British interests at heart rather than EU commissioners who swear an oath to act in the best interests of the EU rather than the U.K.

We're talking about the systems that each Parliament use. I believe that both systems work as well as each other, and serve their respective electorates equally well.
Your issue with the EU system is that it's not always for the UK's benefit, and that may be true, but that doesn't make it a bad system for ALL of those that it meant to represent.

 

[Bromley boy]

And that's only her husband...

No doubt you’d prefer us to be exclusively governed by Juncker the drunker...

 

[EM2]

Can you honestly not understand that other people may have concerns over immigration based on their experiences beyond your own frame of reference?

It wasn’t a big factor for me either but that doesn’t mean I automatically dismiss other peoples’ concerns. I’ve spoken to many ex tradespeople who would disagree with you but I suppose you’ll write them all off as little England racists for daring to criticise freedom of movement.

Of course some people have concerns. I have concerns about other things many people frankly would not give a second's thought to.
But it's telling that mostly, the areas that have seen the highest immigration voted to Remain.

 

[Bromley boy]

We're talking about the systems that each Parliament use. I believe that both systems work as well as each other, and serve their respective electorates equally well.
Your issue with the EU system is that it's not always for the UK's benefit, and that may be true, but that doesn't make it a bad system for ALL of those that it meant to represent.

Fair enough, I believe it doesn’t for the reasons outlined above.

I want the government of the U.K. to be solely concerned with the benefit of the U.K - a task that is difficult enough to achieve in itself.

I don’t want to be governed by a supra-National system of government that tries to balance the U.K.’s interests against those of “the EU”.

To be clear the democratic deficit is only one of many reasons I am deeply suspicious of the EU.

It’s interesting that, for all the criticism of the U.K. government on this thread, nobody has said a word about the problems facing Southern Europe and the impact of the EU’s disastrous economic policies on these countries... Of course, in your eyes the EU can do no wrong, can it?!

 

[najaB]

So you contention is that the U.K. parliament is not representative enough, and your solution is to replace it...

Who has proposed replacing the UK parliament? I must have missed that one.

 

[najaB]

It’s interesting that, for all the criticism of the U.K. government on this thread, nobody has said a word about the problems facing Southern Europe and the impact of the EU’s disastrous economic policies on these countries... Of course, in your eyes the EU can do no wrong, can it?!

I can only speak for Spain (having had many a long discussion with several Spanish nationals), but most of Spain's problems are due to domestic political infighting and rampant corruption.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I can only speak for Spain (having had many a long discussion with several Spanish nationals), but most of Spain's problems are due to domestic political infighting and rampant corruption.

I think he actually refers to the economic issues that came about when the Eurozone crisis began. Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal (and possibly Ireland) have had a bad time since handing control of their economy to the European Central Bank.

Though I believe the single currency is a seperate issue, it does relate back to the politics of the EU. It was a part of bringing an ever closer union, but the economic aide of things wasn’t thought through very well. Not every county shares the same economic strength and stability, so it was almost doomed to fail unless a new federal sovereign state was established.

In fairness, I think Greece lied about its goals to meet the economic criteria, but I still think the Eurozone has just been a disaster, and it only benefits a few of the participants while being problematic with others. It only takes one country to mess things up as well.

 

[najaB]

I think he actually refers to the economic issues that came about when the Eurozone crisis began. Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal (and possibly Ireland) have had a bad time since handing control of their economy to the European Central Bank.

Again, largely due (in the case of Spain at least) to domestic factors. In the case of Greece, if paying taxes wasn't optional their government finances would be a lot better off than they are.

 

[Bromley boy]

Again, largely due (in the case of Spain at least) to domestic factors. In the case of Greece, if paying taxes wasn't optional their government finances would be a lot better off than they are.

And I suppose you think the Euro has done Greece and Spain a power of good?

You really are arguing black is white here, I’m afraid.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Again, largely due (in the case of Spain at least) to domestic factors. In the case of Greece, if paying taxes wasn't optional their government finances would be a lot better off than they are.

Unfortunately, Spain now doesn’t have the power to control things such as the interest rates and will be affected by the inflation of the Euro, which may not suit their economic needs. I won’t deny that the domestic factors may have been a problem, but any new government will have a much harder time trying to fix it because of the fact they don’t control their economy completely. The UK may have had a slump in the pound, but the Bank of England will be able to change the interest rates by increasing or decreasing them to try and ease the consequences. Dare I say in fact that Mark Carney was the only one with a plan in case of a leave vote.

 

[najaB]

And I suppose you think the Euro has done Greece and Spain a power of good?

You really are arguing black is white here, I’m afraid.

Oh, it's not helped, but they aren't known for a history of strong, competent economic management.

 

[tspaul26]

£40bn is something along the lines of £2000-2500 for every Brexit vote, however I'm not sure what a £billion is - £1,000,000,000?? But it's money that could be spent on the NHS instead - it would interesting if May came back to the public and said "do you really want us to send this money to Brussels, or shall we spend it on the NHS? and see which they choose - and if they choose the NHS that means we stay in the EU. Anyhow, there's only one magic money tree and all that money went to Northern Ireland, so the rest has to be found somewhere, and it's to be spent first before we get the *benefit* of not funding the EU (and getting some of it back) which will take years. And we still don't know whether we will be paying for "access".

Hands in your pockets, everyone

I believe you are presenting a false dichotomy. This money would not be available to spend if the United Kingdom remained a member of the EU.

The basic starting point is that we are not obliged to make a financial contribution to the EU after 'Brexit day'.

Therefore, these negotiations are about whether it would be better for the UK to retain any net funds that are released or to agree to make some sort of continuing contribution to the EU in return for something that furthers our interest (i.e. do a deal).

 

[Tetchytyke]

It may be archaic but it takes a pretty tortuous logic to describe the UK system as undemocratic, and I simply don't see how the current UK system can reasonably be described as equivalent or less democratic than the EU system which relies on appointed commissioners from various European countries making decisions that are then critiqued by a "parliament" which itself cannot even originate legislation.

The UK Parliament has no effective ability to originate legislation. UK legislation is originated by an appointed Cabinet, hand-selected by an appointed PM.

Could you explain how this is in any way, shape or form different to the EU?

This isn't about "failing to criticise the EU". The EU Commission is designed the way it is precisely in order to maintain national governmental control. Brexit people want to keep national governmental control.

The consequence of more direct democracy in Europe is less national control. The consequence of more national control is less direct democracy. Choose one position.

 

[tspaul26]

And I suppose you think the Euro has done Greece and Spain a power of good?

You really are arguing black is white here, I’m afraid.

I think it is fair to say that the Euro did enable many good things to happen. Spain and Greece were able to borrow money cheaply in order to improve infrastructure and so forth. This represented a massive opportunity.

However, the governments of both countries were irresponsible, spent too much and borrowed too much (to say nothing of corruption). Their economies are also highly regulated and inflexible.

The problem was that the limitations of a common currency meant that options were severely restricted when crisis hit. Had national governments borrowed and spent more prudently then things might not have been so bad.

To summarise: I do not think the issue is clear cut at all. The Euro has strengths and weaknesses, as we have seen over the past 20 years.

 

[EM2]

Of course, in your eyes the EU can do no wrong, can it?!

Pretty sure that I've never said that.
Edit - the post above pretty much sums up my thoughts on the economics of southern European countries that you mentioned.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Again I don't think you're appreciating the difference between a puppet EU "parliament" that doesn't originate its own legislation and what we have in the uk.

That's because there isn't any difference.

Backbencher MPs- the equivalent of MEPs- effectively and in practice cannot originate legislation.

Calling it "the mother of all Parliaments" is great PR. But the truth is that our Parliament is also little more than a rubber-stamp for the Executive. The odd Private Member's Bill is great theatre, but has no meaningful effect unless the Executive want the Bill to pass.

 

[Tetchytyke]

nobody has said a word about the problems facing Southern Europe and the impact of the EU’s disastrous economic policies on these countries.

Southern Europe has been inflated with EU cash for years. Spain's infrastructure has pretty much all been built with EU money.

The issue is where that money has been spent. Which is a national decision. The EU provided the cash to develop Spain, the fact the Spanish wazzed it up the wall on rubbish like Ciudad Real is a different issue entirely.

I don't think the Euro has particularly helped them, but Spain and Greece were basket cases long before the Euro or even the ERM (and being tied to basket cases is why I'm not devastated we didn't join the Euro).

 

[Tetchytyke]

That’s even before you get onto the fact the U.K. parliament is at least comprised of British people (not necessarily British born, of course) with British interests at heart

And now, at long last, we're on to the real issue for you.

As for the swearing of oaths, remind me how that's working for the people of Northern Ireland...

 

[Howardh]

No doubt you’d prefer us to be exclusively governed by Juncker the drunker...

Prefer the Chuckle Brothers to May...and I don't mean Boris and Gove!

Meanwhile the Daily Politics again was dominated by the Irish border issue. If the £40bn was a welcome turning point as in getting things moving, Ireland simply moves us back to square one.

I hope for that £40bn we get some kind of trade arrangement meaning we can keep the CTA in place; and that also should mean ease of travel into the whole of the EU/Schengen as they can hardly allow us free access to one part of the EU and not the rest - that would be bizarre.

Maybe we will end up in an AEU arrangement....associate member of the EU or something. Not read the papers yet, but has this money been offered and what doe the likes of Fox and Smugg make of it??

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I'd like to ask two questions to those who voted Remain in the referendum, and do not worry it isn't me picking holes in your arguments or asking how much you hate Britain. No, the question are...

1. Even though you voted remain, are you necessarily for or against the idea of a single currency, both with the Euro and the very concept of it?
2. Do you also believe that the single currency could be a separate issue from the European Union to warrant it's own discussions? (not going to start a thread on it)

I look forward to your answers and reasoning. It might back up my claim that those in favour of remaining weren't necessarily in favour of the single currency, or to my surprise it might prove me badly wrong.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I think the UK, as an island, had less to gain from a single currency. Certainly for the average citizen, one of the biggest benefits has been seamless travel across the EU and boosts to borderland regions. As a UK citizen, travelling to the rest of the EU (except RoI) required a passport and flight, special train or ferry ride, so taking a separate currency was no extra burden.

Obviously entering the Euro would acquiesce control of our interest rates, but for the last few years they have been very similar, so it is hard to say if it would have made any difference.

One of the biggest arguments against merging interest rates with Europe is that the UK traditionally had more homeowners and less renters, so lower and middle classes are more susceptible to rate changes than in Europe where renting is more common - however into the 21st Century, renting is becoming more common in the UK too, so the differences are less pronounced.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42064743

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar "should know better" than to "play around" with Northern Ireland over Brexit, the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party says.

So the leader of an ex-Unionist terrorist affiliated political party is now openly making threats, this is all going to end well...

 

[Domh245]

I want the government of London to be solely concerned with the benefit of London - a task that is difficult enough to achieve in itself.

I don’t want to be governed by a National system of government that tries to balance London’s interests against those of “the U.K.”.

It's all about compromise and what you are happy to accept. I was quite happy with the arrangements beforehand

Backbencher MPs- the equivalent of MEPs- effectively and in practice cannot originate legislation.

Calling it "the mother of all Parliaments" is great PR. But the truth is that our Parliament is also little more than a rubber-stamp for the Executive. The odd Private Member's Bill is great theatre, but has no meaningful effect unless the Executive want the Bill to pass.

Agreed. Listening to Today in Parliament the amount of times that you hear "The bill passed by *clear majority* but without government support, it is unlikely to become law" makes that clear enough.

I'd like to ask two questions to those who voted Remain in the referendum, and do not worry it isn't me picking holes in your arguments or asking how much you hate Britain. No, the question are...

1. Even though you voted remain, are you necessarily for or against the idea of a single currency, both with the Euro and the very concept of it?
2. Do you also believe that the single currency could be a separate issue from the European Union to warrant it's own discussions? (not going to start a thread on it)

I look forward to your answers and reasoning. It might back up my claim that those in favour of remaining weren't necessarily in favour of the single currency, or to my surprise it might prove me badly wrong.

I was quite happy with the situation as it was pre-referendum. I'm not too bothered about the concept of a single currency, but I'm glad that we aren't in it and had the ability to choose to remain out. I'm by no means a europhile, but I thought that the UK would do better as a member of the EU than leaving it (especially given the apparent lack of talent in the current political scene who are having to try and carry it out)

Saw this earlier, and it reminded me that for every @Bromley boy that comes out and argues their corner, there are plenty that come out with rubbish like this

(from Paul Masterson MP's twitter)

17.5 MILLION
52% VOTED LEAVE
PACK YOUR SUITCASE AND LEAVE THE UK. AND DONT RETURN EVER. YOU:- TRAITOR
TO JUDAS
Happy BREXIT Christmas

 

[Tim R-T-C]

And that is the thing that is going to sink us. Any attempt to have a reasonable debate about how Brexit should be implemented, is being hijacked by these absurd 'hard brexiteers' who think that any attempt by an MP to use our "mother of all parliaments" to discuss what is the best way to negotiate and organise the procedure is "treachery".

If this is the case, surely every opposition vote in the history of Parliament should be considered treachery as they are voting against the party that got the majority vote?

Instead, the government have decided to give in to these wild brexiteers and go for the fastest, hardest Brexit they can think of, even if it sinks the country.

Surely even the most ardent, non-lunatic Brexit supporter, should realise that a careful negotiating process, without artificial time limits, is the best way to get what is best for Britain and that our democratically elected Parliament should be what agrees to what happens, rather than the tiny Number 10 cartel.

 

[Tetchytyke]

• Even though you voted remain, are you necessarily for or against the idea of a single currency, both with the Euro and the very concept of it?

• Do you also believe that the single currency could be a separate issue from the European Union to warrant it's own discussions? (not going to start a thread on it

I don't think the single currency would work for us. But we're not in it. So I don't understand why it is an issue. It's the Germans' problem, not ours.

 

[najaB]

I look forward to your answers and reasoning. It might back up my claim that those in favour of remaining weren't necessarily in favour of the single currency, or to my surprise it might prove me badly wrong.

I don't think we had anything to benefit at the present from joining the single currency. That's not to say that things might not have changed in the future.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Saw this earlier, and it reminded me that for every @Bromley boy that comes out and argues their corner, there are plenty that come out with rubbish like this

(from Paul Masterson MP's twitter)

In defence of Bromley boy, he’s a nice guy and I don’t think he’d go so far. From what I know of him of course, maybe there’s something I’m not seeing .

Regardless, such intolerance on that persons behalf. They’re only making it harder on themselves because they’re reinforcing the stereotype that leave voters were intolerant and bigoted scum.

This is why it’s hard being someone who originally voted leave. Not only did I share ground with people like that, but apparently I was being represented by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove in the campaigns, and still am apparently.

I’d rather have been represented by actual sceptics like Dennis Skinner and not that opportunistic blonde-haired oaf who’d stab his friends in the back just to further his own goals. He’s done it twice now even!

(By the way, I wasn’t angry when the high court said that the vote must go to Parliament to trigger article 50. When the key issue for me was the sovereignty of the UK, I can’t complain about a vote since Parliament IS sovereign in this country. It’s what we wanted after all)

Sorry the long rant, and thanks for the response to my original question.

 

[Howardh]

Single currency? For the traveller and businessman it would make life easier, but I'm not fussed either way. Certainly not joining the Euro while the Stirling rates are so low, they would have to recover to 1.30/£ minimum before the Euro remotely got my vote.
Much prefer us to be part of the Schengen zone rather than in the Euro which would mean we travel to those countries as domestics. Still have to go through security at airports before getting on the plane though...and that will happen Brexit, Schengen, Euro, EFTA.....nowt we can do about that

 

[EM2]

I'd like to ask two questions to those who voted Remain in the referendum, and do not worry it isn't me picking holes in your arguments or asking how much you hate Britain. No, the question are...

1. Even though you voted remain, are you necessarily for or against the idea of a single currency, both with the Euro and the very concept of it?
2. Do you also believe that the single currency could be a separate issue from the European Union to warrant it's own discussions? (not going to start a thread on it)

I look forward to your answers and reasoning. It might back up my claim that those in favour of remaining weren't necessarily in favour of the single currency, or to my surprise it might prove me badly wrong.

I've never really thought about it much.
I don't really mind if I'm spending pounds, Euros, or (to quote Del Trotter) pesetas, roubles or Hungarian luncheon vouchers, as long as what I buy costs the same percentage of what I earn.
Let's say I take home £1800 and my rent is £900. As long as my rent stayed as 50% of my take-home pay, I'm fine with it.

 

[Steveman]

Although I wasn't around in Hitler's time, even HE failed to do what you did with one cross (well, 17 ruddy million of them). Thanks, bud.

Even for you comparing leave voters to a well known Nazi is rather poor.