EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

Not Maggie; I was referring to May's contender for PM and leader of the Tories.

And who might that be?

What the Tory party needs is someone with the cojones to crack on and get things done.

Not a popular viewpoint on this forum, I’m sure, but Maggie Thatcher had balls in spades.

 

[hexagon789]

And who might that be?

What the Tory party needs is someone with the cojones to crack on and get things done.

Not a popular viewpoint on this forum, I’m sure, but Maggie Thatcher had balls in spades.

Oh I quite agree, there has never really been a Conservative party leader of quite the same calibre as Margaret Thatcher.

What I had meant was that the Conservative party had the choice between electing remainer Theresa May and leaver Andrea Leadsom, the latter of which ultimately dropped out of the race. I was trying to point out that it wasn't a given a remainer would be the next PM initially.

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh I quite agree, there has never really been a Conservative party leader of quite the same calibre as Margaret Thatcher.

Indeed.

She lit a fire beneath the Tory party, that’s for sure. A truly bad-ass, ball-breaking, thermonuclear-weapons-grade leader with the personality and the guts to carry it through.

What I had meant was that the Conservative party had the choice between electing remainer Theresa May and leaver Andrea Leadsom, the latter of which ultimately dropped out of the race. I was trying to point out that it wasn't a given a remainer would be the next PM initially.

Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom (and Amber Rudd) pale in comparison.

Who are we left with?

 

[hexagon789]

Who are we left with?

Mogg?

 

[Bromley boy]

Mogg?

Christ on a bike. Is that who we are down to? It probably is.

A bright guy, I’ll grant you, but with the looks of an accountant, the personality of a lettuce leaf, and all the charisma of a bacterium, he won’t cut the mustard in today’s personality focused political world.

No. Just no.

 

[hexagon789]

Christ on a bike. Is that who we are down to? It probably is.

A bright guy, I’ll grant you, but with the looks of an accountant, the personality of a lettuce leaf, and all the charisma of a bacterium, he won’t cut the mustard in today’s personality focused political world.

No. Just no.

Who then? Who would you have guide Britain through Brexit in an uncompromising way?

(I struggle to think of many with the necessary conviction and guts to do the job properly.)

 

[Bromley boy]

Who then? Who would you have guide Britain through Brexit in an uncompromising way?

(I struggle to think of many with the necessary conviction and guts to do the job properly.)

Preferably Margaret Thatcher or Winston Churchill. Both long since dead and gone.

I agree with you - I genuinely struggle to identify anyone in the current Tory party who I would back to do it.

Bring David Cameron back?! John Major for that matter (oops no, they were both remainers).

I honestly despair!

 

[hexagon789]

Preferably Margaret Thatcher or Winston Churchill. Both long since dead and gone.

I agree with you - I genuinely struggle to identify anyone in the current Tory party who I would back to do it.

Bring David Cameron back?! John Major for that matter (oops no, they were both remainers).

I honestly despair!

It is difficult to see who is in the best position to suceed May, because she has to go, it's simply a matter of when.

Once a new leader is installed then hopefully the exit process can be properly managed and dealt with.

 

[Bromley boy]

It is difficult to see who is in the best position to suceed May, because she has to go, it's simply a matter of when.

Once a new leader is installed then hopefully the exit process can be properly managed and dealt with.

Soon we will have the glorious bearded lunatic Jezza for PM and his excellency Comrade McDonnel for chancellor.

And then, God help us all.

Sell your property, buy a little red book, jump onto the first boat/aeroplane bound for North Korea.

That’s my plan.

 

[muddythefish]

Soon we will have the glorious bearded lunatic Jezza for PM and his excellency Comrade McDonnel for chancellor.

And then, God help us all.

Sell your property, buy a little red book, jump onto the first boat/aeroplane bound for North Korea.

That’s my plan.

Silly

 

[EM2]

Riddle me that... and maybe then I’ll vote Labour.

I don’t see why I should convince you to vote Labour, when I don't even vote for them.
The point is that the Conservatives knew that they were going to have to negotiate a Leave deal, but didn't have the confidence in any of them that actually supported it.
If Corbyn had been PM, at least you'd have a Leaver doing the Leaving.

 

[nlogax]

The only thing I'm getting from this entire damned thread is that neither the Tories nor Labour possess the imagination or the talent to plan for Brexit in any coherent way in the wake of the referendum result. I'd have more faith in an ITV3 evening line-up than either main parties to get this **** finally sorted.

 

[pemma]

Substitute “EU” for “China” and there are enormous similarities.

Works both ways. EU could blow up, as could post-Brexit Britain.

Isn't that what Cameron tried to do BEFORE the referendum. That went well didn't it.

Are you trying to imply if a proper plan for leaving the EU had been put forward, that leave wouldn't have done so well in the referendum, so in the circumstances it was best they didn't attempt one?

Well they did, but she dropped out of the race.

Leadsome didn't have the support of most of her party and would have struggled even more than May at winning over the public. For most people there's a lot of issues more important than Brexit.

 

[furnessvale]

Are you trying to imply if a proper plan for leaving the EU had been put forward, that leave wouldn't have done so well in the referendum, so in the circumstances it was best they didn't attempt one?

No. I am suggesting that a more reasonable response by the EU to the pathetic negotiating attempt by Cameron could well have swung the vote.

The blame for a leave vote by UK voters sits squarely on the shoulders of arrogant EU officials.

 

[hexagon789]

Soon we will have the glorious bearded lunatic Jezza for PM and his excellency Comrade McDonnel for chancellor.

It might not come to that.

Leadsome didn't have the support of most of her party and would have struggled even more than May at winning over the public.

I never meant that she was going to become PM rather that there was a pro-Brexit choice.

 

[EM2]

The blame for a leave vote by UK voters sits squarely on the shoulders of arrogant EU officials.

Oh please.
Cameron's announcement that the referendum would take place was after the negotiations with the EU, so everyone already knew what the new arrangements would be.

 

[NSEFAN]

The blame for a leave vote by UK voters sits squarely on the shoulders of arrogant EU officials.

I do wonder, if we're such a valueable asset and net contributor to the EU, why we did not just do what we wanted regardless of what they said we could or couldn't do. After all, that's what France and Germany do all the time and they don't get in trouble for it.

 

[furnessvale]

Oh please.
Cameron's announcement that the referendum would take place was after the negotiations with the EU, so everyone already knew what the new arrangements would be.

Which is why a majority (of those who voted) chose Leave.

 

[EM2]

Which is why a majority (of those who voted) chose Leave.

Is it? Or is it because of things like untruths stuck on buses (even the director of Vote Leave has admitted it)?
How can it be the EU's fault when it was Cameron who decided the date of the referendum? He had formed his Government less than a year before, so he still had FOUR YEARS to persuade the electorate and announce the date, before he could be accused of breaking a manifesto pledge.

 

[fowler9]

Lots to unpack in the above statement.

Don’t assume all leave voters are the same. I’m sorry to say I know quite a few remain voters who are racist in the truest, white supremacist, sense. They voted remain because they were frightened of house prices dropping.

And also, please don’t conflate racism with criticism of a very patriarchal and backward religion. I’m not sure women wearing veils is the way this country should be going.

Mate she talked about black people, not just Muslims. She had a go at Gurkhas on the same day. I would never say all leavers are racist but personally I have never come across a remainer who is. You obviously have. Fair play. Everything I said was anecdotal.

 

[Bromley boy]

Mate she talked about black people, not just Muslims. She had a go at Gurkhas on the same day. I would never say all leavers are racist but personally I have never come across a remainer who is. You obviously have. Fair play. Everything I said was anecdotal.

Fair enough.

She certainly sounds like she’s pretty ignorant. Those are certainly not views I share, for the record, but I suspect you’re right that quite a few leave voters will have voted as they did due to concerns about immigration. That’s a fair viewpoint and having concerns around open door “free movement” immigration isn’t the same as racism. But yes, some leave voters will be “racist” in the truest sense.

I admit I'm also not a great fan of women wearing veils as it represents conservative religious/cultural practices I don’t agree with and I don’t believe are compatible with the culture of the UK.

 

[bramling]

And who might that be?

What the Tory party needs is someone with the cojones to crack on and get things done.

Not a popular viewpoint on this forum, I’m sure, but Maggie Thatcher had balls in spades.

Won’t disagree with that. She’s certainly the best PM in my lifetime.

I have a *slight* admiration for Tony Blair’s ability to understand the political landscape, even though I don’t in any way align to his politics. Unfortunately Blair was rather less adept at implementation - many of today’s issues with this country seem to date back to his tenure.

Cameron is a bit of an unknown as we never saw him complete his full majority term. I did have a certain respect for him until he walked off in a huff after the referendum.

May is very much a repeat of John Major - a “none of the above” candidate who’s there by default and by swooping in at the right moment. As for Gordon Brown, I think the footage of the radio show with his head in his hand after the Rochdale incident sums up his brief premiership.

Regarding who should take over now, I honestly have no idea. Both parties have a serious talent vacuum at the moment. It’s rather worrying for the future. I wish Portillo was still in the game.

 

[WelshBluebird]

They did. A leave vote = a clean break from the EU.

That position was made abundantly clear by the remain camp. Leaving = leaving the EU and it’s major institutions, including the common market and the customs union.

So that’s precisely what the public voted for.

Well except it wasn't made clear at all. There was lots of talk before the vote from leave supporters about "no one is talking about leaving the single market".

The PM wasn't 'appointed'. She won a leadership contest.

I'd hardly say she won it. She only "won" it by default cos everyone else dropped out.

 

[nlogax]

Well except it wasn't made clear at all. There was lots of talk before the vote from leave supporters about "no one is talking about leaving the single market".

Quite.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Well except it wasn't made clear at all. There was lots of talk before the vote from leave supporters about "no one is talking about leaving the single market

Quite.

Funnily enough, there were some people talking about how leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market and would be an inevitable result of voting to leave. But wait, these were those on the Remain side though, and now they're saying that just because we are leaving does not mean we leave the single market and that we didn't actually vote to leave it.

Both campaign figures had a quick reverse position when they realised none of their agendas were going to be met and are trying to desperately to get their own way through other means. Remain is just as guilty of lying as Leave was.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Funnily enough, there were some people talking about how leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market and would be an inevitable result of voting to leave. But wait, these were those on the Remain side though, and now they're saying that just because we are leaving does not mean we leave the single market and that we didn't actually vote to leave it.

Both campaign figures had a quick reverse position when they realised none of their agendas were going to be met and are trying to desperately to get their own way through other means. Remain is just as guilty of lying as Leave was.

Talk about a defensive reply.
I am not claiming, and never have claimed, that the remain campaign was any better or worse.
My comment was specifically in reply the idea that everyone knew the leave vote was a vote to leave the single market. Which clearly, was not clear, made obvious by the fact leave supporters themselves were even saying it would not necessarily be a vote to leave the single market. Thus it was not clear, and any attempt to try to claim it was is simply a lie.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Talk about a defensive reply.
I am not claiming, and never have claimed, that the remain campaign was any better or worse.
My comment was specifically in reply the idea that everyone knew the leave vote was a vote to leave the single market. Which clearly, was not clear, made obvious by the fact leave supporters themselves were even saying it would not necessarily be a vote to leave the single market. Thus it was not clear, and any attempt to try to claim it was is simply a lie.

Forgive me if I may have sounded a bit defensive but I think the point needed to be made regardless so future discussions have access to the lies told in video. You were right, not everyone really knew the vote was to leave the single market, and at one point not even I knew. It's all just one big mess piling up day after day to the point where I'm starting to think some of us would be better off just out of Britain as well as the EU and living on a private island with no politics. It would make my life lot more easier for one thing.

 

[Howardh]

living on a private island with no politics.

That'll be Belgium then! Aside form not being an island (small point...) they went several months without a government. Think Germany did also -and they're both still here!!

There IS something I'd go for; and something similar's been raised by Guy Verhofstadt so it's not totally a fantasy suggestion; let Brexit do it's own thing, but allow those of us that wish to keep our EU citizenship to pay to do just that; for an one-off price we get an E-passport on top of our ordinary one which allows us to keep the four freedoms (meaning we breeze through the EU channel at airports rather than have to queue and have Visa's checked etc) including IHIC entitlement and even the use of EU embassies outside the EU should ours not be available; and the biggest plus is we retain the absolute right to work/live in the EU.

If something like that ever DID occur it may have to be written into EU law so that all countries wishing to leave would have to allow it's citizens EU membership afterwards should they wish - If I got to keep my EU citizenship then you can have your Rees-Mogg Brexit. Go ahead...

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

If something like that ever DID occur it may have to be written into EU law so that all countries wishing to leave would have to allow it's citizens EU membership afterwards should they wish - If I got to keep my EU citizenship then you can have your Rees-Mogg Brexit. Go ahead...

If I'm honest with you, it seems unlikely I'll be getting the kind of deal that I originally hoped for when I voted. If we're going to stay in the single market or customs union, then we might as well stay. There is just no point at all in going for a deal when nothing leave voters cared about will be dealt with. Free movement will be there, we'll still have to follow some EU laws, and all without any representation through MEPs. So what's the point in leaving really? If you can ever get your EU citizenship, I advise you to get it urgently. Not only will it please and allow you to get away from the more intolerant group of leavers (ie. ultranationalist groups) but you can still do what you always wanted.

 

[EM2]

https://news.sky.com/story/carney-sees-a-900-brexit-cost-to-household-incomes-11381658
Brexit has cost each UK household £900, Bank of England governor Mark Carney says

Mark Carney has claimed the Brexit vote has left households £900 worse off, describing the sum as "a lot of money."

The governor of the Bank of England made his remarks while giving evidence of a committee of MPs, stating his belief that the effects of the EU referendum in June 2016 had lowered the UK's GDP by 2%.

Mr Carney has previously spoken of the damage inflicted on the economy by the referendum result, which saw prices surge on the back of a plunge in the value of the pound and business investment slow amid uncertainty on the path ahead.

The central bank chief, who was criticised by Brexiteers ahead of the vote when he claimed there was a possibility of recession if Leave won, argued the current UK slowdown was in stark contrast to its main competitors.

In the session with members of the treasury select committee, the governor was also forced to defend the Bank's decision not to raise interest rates this month as it had previously guided it could.

Committee chair, Nicky Morgan MP, asked if the hint of a "somewhat earlier-than-expected" rate hike was "rather confusing" for households and businesses.

The Bank's monetary policy committee (MPC) vote of 7-2 was driven, in his case Mr Carney said, by the economy failing to meet forecasts in the first quarter of the year.

He explained: "We give guidance. The guidance is conditional on the economic outlook.
"Inflation came in lower, economic momentum - a number signs - were lower, and then ultimately the hard data came in lower as well and we as a committee sat back, looked back at that data and took our own assessments."

Market forecasts currently see a 40% chance of a rate rise at August's meeting.

Mr Carney told the committee he did not believe the economy was as weak as the 0.1% estimate of first quarter growth suggested and the country should still expect to see a "gentle" rise in interest rates over the coming years.

The ONS is due to give updated figures for the January-March period on Friday.

Remain supporters seized on the governor's Brexit figures.

Leader of the Liberal Democrats, Vince Cable, said: "At the time of the Brexit vote the fact that the economy didn't immediately collapse was argued as proof that leaving the EU was painless.

"We now know that it wasn't painless, to the extent that households are already £900 a year worse off, and Brexit has not even happened as yet.

"Inflation caused by a weak pound and stuttering economic growth are cutting into people's everyday lives. But we can stop this, because Brexit is not inevitable - people must be allowed a say on the final deal."