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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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EM2

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Is "TV studies" even a thing or did you make that up to suit your agenda? With your logic, everyone should be involved in manual trades and no one should do anything else. Yeah, that's gonna work out just fine!
It is a thing, although it's often Film & Television Studies.
But I think GarethJohn has a point. I don't see why it's important for everyone to have a degree. After all, if everyone does, what value does it have?
How many jobs actually *need* a degree? I haven't got one, I've been continuously employed for nearly thirty years (except for a brief three month period), and have had supervisory and management positions.
A schoolfriend of mine is a Vice-President of IT for a multi-national bank. He doesn't have a degree.
Another schoolfriend does have a degree in Graphics. He works at Sainsbury's in the warehouse.
 
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Mutant Lemming

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But I would say that Windermere and Bowness have suffered mass immigration too, and they're for Remain! It's just that the immigrants are southerners, not foreigners.

the Southern Immigrants have trickled in over years and not just turned up overnight.
I am not saying it is right or wrong I am saying it how I saw it on my travels the weeks leading up to the Leave vote - from Llanelli to Boston, Chesterfield to Accrington.

If the Remain camp are successful and either block or cause a re-run it will be the ultimate proof of why many voted Leave in the first place.
 

Harbornite

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It is a thing, although it's often Film & Television Studies.
But I think GarethJohn has a point. I don't see why it's important for everyone to have a degree. After all, if everyone does, what value does it have?
How many jobs actually *need* a degree? I haven't got one, I've been continuously employed for nearly thirty years (except for a brief three month period), and have had supervisory and management positions.
A schoolfriend of mine is a Vice-President of IT for a multi-national bank. He doesn't have a degree.
Another schoolfriend does have a degree in Graphics. He works at Sainsbury's in the warehouse.

I believe that for a healthy economy, we need a mixture of pax with and without degrees. Not everyone needs a degree, it goes without saying that some people are suited to degrees and others are not and this is no problem. Horses for courses.
 

lejog

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It's not as pathetic as constantly asking questions that you know cannot be answered on a forum like this, it doesn't matter what I think. I don't have a say in it:roll:

Of course the questions can be asked on a forum like this. We have a choice of either:

Applying for single market membership, in which case we keep all the free trade agreements, the City Of London keeps its passport (so it can continue to export services to the EU), but we accept free movement of labour and continue to pay (probably increased) EU contributions.

or:

We don't do this,we trash our services and manufacturing industries causing any almighty recession, disproportionately hitting the C2DE demograph that voted for Brexit, although we are free to "control our borders" and of our EU contributions (tiny as they are compared with the economic damage caused by these options).

So do you agree with the views of Tory Brexiteer Daniel Hannan, who obviously strongly favours the first option and expects EU migration to continue unchanged? From noises eminating from the Vote.Leave group this may well be their preferred option.

Or the second option, undoubtably favoured by UKIP ("we're going to have a recession in a couple of years anyway" Farage?)

In my opinion the lack of a plan before the vote before the vote just showed up the paucity of the arguments of the Leave camp. To say you have no preferred plan now you've won beggars belief.
 

TheKnightWho

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I believe that for a healthy economy, we need a mixture of pax with and without degrees. Not everyone needs a degree, it goes without saying that some people are suited to degrees and others are not and this is no problem. Horses for courses.

I think this is right to an extent, but I'd love to see everyone do something educational up to 18 or higher, with vocational courses and apprenticeships getting a lot more funding.

A better educated population is always a good thing.
 

cjp

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As much as I have followed the thread it seems to boil down to no one really knows what might happen next. You have wishes and opinions but no knowledge - and neither have I.

We, the UK voters, have decided to leave the EU- fact.

No time scale was ever set or established - people have wishes or opinions but there is not date set - fact.

Some political heads have or are about to roll - fact.

What I would like now is for there to be general election with factions setting out their positions so that we can vote and express our opinions based on those positions.
And not have politicians driven by the lobbying big businesses motivated by greed rather than the good of the country as a whole.

I imagine as politician like to cling to power and money this will not happen any time soon since Democracy in this country is does not work like that - shame.

Utopia is but a dream.

I have a dream
 

Mutant Lemming

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Please look at the statistics, and I did say "for the most part". Given the general pattern of places that have little migration being the most pro-brexit, and vice versa, perhaps the vote in Lincolnshire was not actually about migration. Or perhaps Lincolnshire is exceptional in some way. Otherwise, how do you explain the pattern?

I'm posting a reference again so readers can check for themselves: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...migration-fears-were-paradoxical-but-decisive

I was in Boston and Spalding the week before the referendum and for the locals it was ALL about immigration and how it has changed their town. Similarly in Accrington. the vote in Boston was 75% leave and for Spalding (South Holland) 73.6%. Accrington 66% leave.

Keep on goimg through and check on what I actually said - small towns + recent mass immigration = high leave vote or did the BBC just 'make those figures up ?.........
Rotherham 67/9%....... Kettering 61%, Wellingborough 62%...
Before calling something a lie it might have been an idea to check the figures
 

anme

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I was in Boston and Spalding the week before the referendum and for the locals it was ALL about immigration and how it has changed their town. Similarly in Accrington. the vote in Boston was 75% leave and for Spalding (South Holland) 73.6%. Accrington 66% leave.

Keep on goimg through and check on what I actually said - small towns + recent mass immigration = high leave vote or did the BBC just 'make those figures up ?.........
Rotherham 67/9%....... Kettering 61%, Wellingborough 62%...
Before calling something a lie it might have been an idea to check the figures

I said "for the most part". I didn't say for every town. I said there was general pattern of places that have little migration being the most pro-brexit, and vice versa. That is true.

Before calling something a lie it might have been an idea to check the figures.
 

jon0844

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For avoidance of doubt, here is a photo of the bus

rsz_cikhd7axaaiklxc.jpg




So whilst it doesn't explicitly say, vote leave and we'll spend £350 million a week extra on the NHS, it is certainly implied.
I hear the bus will soon be repainted to advertise thetrainline.com
 

GarethJohn

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Is "TV studies" even a thing or did you make that up to suit your agenda? With your logic, everyone should be involved in manual trades and no one should do anything else. Yeah, that's gonna work out just fine!

I see you answered one easy bit. and Yes!! they exist, By the way it's the arrogant way of talking down that people like you who believe you are intellectually superior do that lost the Vote. You automatically think you are superior to Brexiters your posts on here are evident of that. The Establishment and Middle Classes, Guardian readers have had two fingers stuck up to them by the ignored majority.
The real world needs trades the Blair Labour Government told us we should go to Uni & do Art degrees.
The EU migrants & Wages of Plumbers have proved how much so.

We then imported them when Construction firms needed labour, the labourers need houses, it's made it harder for locals to get a Council House. Most Brexiters who used to back Labour do not live in a World of Mortgages & pension investments they live day to day. If they need money they cannot get a Job on a local site and see Polish migrants there it creates resentment. They don't look at property prices when looking for a roof over their head when kicked out at Sixteen, they see immigrants in Bedsits and wonder ''why did they get one instead of me''
This is what People see in Labours heartland. Tory Blair ignored them, They got sneered at by arrogant Politicians & Forum warriors. The BNP & UKIP listened and said
''You wanna stick it too them then Vote Leave''. they did and Corbyn was not the reason it was the Blarite Back-stabbing-Benchers & Cabinet.
 

Mutant Lemming

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I said "for the most part". I didn't say for every town. I said there was general pattern of places that have little migration being the most pro-brexit, and vice versa. That is true.

Before calling something a lie it might have been an idea to check the figures.

Nuneaton 66%, Tamworth 67%, Bolsover 70%......


how many more do you want


Newcastle-under-Lyme 63%....

Bolsover, Boston, Rotherham and Peterborough (60.9%) were all featured in reports over the problems of mass migration prior to the referendum. When you visit a lot of these smaller towns you will find it is their main issue. You could say small town, small minds if you really want to but whatever you say it is where Remain lost it. They offered no solutions and in a yes/no vote you can't go on consistently losing two thirds of the vote.
 
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EM2

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Keep on goimg through and check on what I actually said - small towns + recent mass immigration = high leave vote
But also, small town + almost no immigration = high leave vote, e.g. Ebbw Vale: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...s-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale
Compare this map showing levels of immigration to this map showing the overall result (green is Leave on this one).
There are very few areas of high immigration that voted to Leave.
 

Mvann

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EEA. Can someone confirm something for me. If we join the EEA, do the EU Trade agreements with non EU countries still have to be adhered to?
 

radamfi

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How many people here intend to leave the UK now, while we still can?

If I didn't have personal circumstances preventing me from leaving, I would certainly be in the Netherlands by now and be applying for citizenship as soon as possible. I would then renounce my UK citizenship as I don't really want anything to do with England now.

I'm cheering for Iceland tomorrow!
 

Muttley

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So you think misleading people has nothing to do with people saying it? If you made a claim like that in court, and claimed you weren't technically lying, you would be held in contempt of court. What on earth do you think "instead" refers to in that claim? It is literally and outright claiming that the £350m would be spent on the NHS instead.

This kind of pedantic rubbish is the very reason why the Leave campaign has been filled with lies and half-truths, and it's exactly why we have just left the EU under false pretences. Pathetic defences like yours do not absolve the campaign of anything, and only further fuel the fire of people feeling like this whole thing has been a sham. You should feel ashamed of yourself.

You, sir, are a hypocritical liar.
I proved you were lying on the other thread, and your comeback was that it was just my interpretation.
 

Gutfright

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Unsurprisingly, Leicester - one of the most multi-cultural cities in the country - voted Remain yesterday, and it is clearly because of that acceptance of difference.

If anything Leicester is an outlier. The city voted remain by a narrow margin.

Scotland and Northern Ireland, both whiter than mayonaisse on Wonder Bread, voted to remain.

Guess which way multi-cultural towns and cities like Bradford, Coventry and Luton voted? Remain? Guess again.

Anecdotal evidence and all that, but I know plenty of black and Asian people in Leicester who voted Leave. I've also lost count of the number of times I've heard Asian people complaining that Narborough Road and Evington Road used to be 'their' areas but they're being pushed out by the Polish and Slovaks respectively.

If you were to draw a conclusion, it would be that cities which haven't had to deal with mass EU immigration were more likely to vote remain. Having said that London does shoot a rather large hole in that theory too.
 

TheKnightWho

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You, sir, are a hypocritical liar.
I proved you were lying on the other thread, and your comeback was that it was just my interpretation.

No you didn't. You just kept refusing to answer my questions, and accused me of thinking you were a politician.

You're a joke, and you're deluded. Nothing more.
 

EM2

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Nuneaton 66% 90% English born in the 2010 census.
Tamworth 67% 94% English born
Bolsover 70%...... 95.5% English born
how many more do you want
Newcastle-under-Lyme 63%.... 92.8% English born
All taken from http://localstats.co.uk/census-demographics/england/
By how much have these figures changed in six years?

EDIT - I have specifically used 'English born' to start from the lowest base. If you add in Welsh, Scottish and Irish, then the totals are higher.
 
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anme

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Nuneaton 66%, Tamworth 67%, Bolsover 70%......


how many more do you want


Newcastle-under-Lyme 63%....

Hmm. Those are not very clever numbers for you to post. Let's check a few.

The proportion of the UK's population born abroad is 11.9% (2011).

Nuneaton's percentage of people born abroad is 6.6% (2014). Barely half the average.
Tamworth's foreign born population is 3.3%. Barely a quarter of the average.
Bolsover's foreign born population is 3%. Barely a quarter of the average.
Newcastle under Lyme's foreign born population is 6%. Barely half the average.

The areas you reference have experienced much less migration than average for the UK. People in those places might say they voted leave because of migration, but it's *not* migration into their town. Because there hasn't been much net migration into their town. Do you understand that point?

Refs:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...re-the-immigrants-This-map-will-tell-you.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
EEA. Can someone confirm something for me. If we join the EEA, do the EU Trade agreements with non EU countries still have to be adhered to?

Yes. And yes (second time because the post is otherwise too short).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But also, small town + almost no immigration = high leave vote, e.g. Ebbw Vale: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...s-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale
Compare this map showing levels of immigration to this map showing the overall result (green is Leave on this one).
There are very few areas of high immigration that voted to Leave.

So yet more lies.
Are there any numbers used by the brexiters that are actually accurate? Any examples are welcome! Come on guys, you must have one number you didn't make up.
 
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radamfi

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I would actually expect many places with low immigration levels to be particularly xenophobic precisely because white British people have moved there in the first place to avoid foreigners. Notably parts of Essex.
 

chorleyjeff

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Looks like things have taken an interesting turn..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Labour-MP-calls-Commons-overturn-result.html

Apparently the referendum is not legally binding. It seems to be a fight between Baby Boomers and the younger generation who feel 'screwed over' by the result. :roll:

Europe seem keen enough to kick us out. I just don't want that buffoon Johnson running the show. :|

Could someone please explain how the younger generation feels screwed over by
the result? I don't recall that anything much changed when wejoined the common Market when Iwas a youngish chap. What effect will there be on their day to day life ? And don't tell me it is travel opportunities because I travelled around Western Europe with the greatest of ease inthe 1960s. Actually I don't see that youngsters have much appetite for travel except to go to holiday resorts - indeed the thought of travelling 25 miles to Manchester for work gives some youngsters a nose bleed !
 

radamfi

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And don't tell me it is travel opportunities because I travelled around Western Europe with the greatest of ease inthe 1960s. Actually I don't see that youngsters have much appetite for travel except to go to holiday resorts - indeed the thought of travelling 25 miles to Manchester for work gives some youngsters a nose bleed !

Travelling - no problem.
Living and working - possibly major issues depending on whether EEA membership is retained.
 

anme

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Could someone please explain how the younger generation feels screwed over by
the result?

Is it not obvious? Have you seen the voting numbers by age?

I don't recall that anything much changed when wejoined the common Market when Iwas a youngish chap. What effect will there be on their day to day life ? And don't tell me it is travel opportunities because I travelled around Western Europe with the greatest of ease inthe 1960s. Actually I don't see that youngsters have much appetite for travel except to go to holiday resorts - indeed the thought of travelling 25 miles to Manchester for work gives some youngsters a nose bleed !

It's about the right to live and work abroad, without needing visas and work permits. That's different to travel going on holiday.

Travelling - probably OK, but nothing is guaranteed and everything is subject to negotiation. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

The good news is that freedom of trade and freedom of movement should be preserved if we join the EEA (the Norwegian model). Leave supporters seem to be generally supporting this option now (at least, the politicians), so there's a still a good chance we can rescue something from this colossal mistake.
 

richw

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I've woken up to see people laughing about how stupid the remainers are for talking doom and gloom about the economy because today a pound still releases a trolley at Tesco.

I get the joke - that a pound is still a pound, but feel so down that so many other leave voters clearly don't understand the bigger picture.

And I can't even understand how someone can think we'll be able to close our borders and still have free trade and that the EU would go for that.

They will want to negotiate and will want a deal but they're not that desperate - they have the fear of encouraging everyone else to want a deal otherwise.

And given the politicians, bar Nigel, don't want out entirely the EEA option seems like what we'll get. Then we can claim a victory by not being ruled by the EU (even though we'll accept most of the laws) and carry on as before.

It's a shame there isn't a yougov style poll that shows the academic level of voters.

I don't know whether it's coincidence but of my Facebook contacts, those who were calling for leave are shall I say the less academic, and the majority are minimum wage workers.
On the other hand those who were calling to remain all seem to be contacts I know to be academics, and/or successful business people.
I wonder if there is a correlation between academic/business/unskilled people and their votes.
 

WestCoast

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Could someone please explain how the younger generation feels screwed over by
the result? I don't recall that anything much changed when wejoined the common Market when Iwas a youngish chap. What effect will there be on their day to day life ? And don't tell me it is travel opportunities because I travelled around Western Europe with the greatest of ease inthe 1960s. Actually I don't see that youngsters have much appetite for travel except to go to holiday resorts - indeed the thought of travelling 25 miles to Manchester for work gives some youngsters a nose bleed !

A younger generation that also feels European as well as British? If many people voted to leave on the basis of an emotion, then some have also voted to remain based on the same emotion. Although not a huge number, 20,000+ UK students are studying at EU universities with financial support under the Erasmus exchange programme. It's opportunities like this that I would be very keen to preserve for the next generation.
 

phoenixcronin

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I wonder if some leavers will actually realise what a terrible deal we'd actually end up with if we adopted an EEA type thing, as it seems we may. Yes, we'd still have access to the single market but free movement would continue, and more importantly we would no longer have a say in the EU, so we wont be able to use our influence to our advantage. So not only will immigration not fall but we'll also get a more rotten deal than we have now.

But hey, at least we'll have "taken back control"
 

anme

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It's a shame there isn't a yougov style poll that shows the academic level of voters.

I don't know whether it's coincidence but of my Facebook contacts, those who were calling for leave are shall I say the less academic, and the majority are minimum wage workers.
On the other hand those who were calling to remain all seem to be contacts I know to be academics, and/or successful business people.
I wonder if there is a correlation between academic/business/unskilled people and their votes.

Yes, there was a *very strong* correlation between education level and voting intention - see here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...type-of-person-wants-to-leave-and-who-will-b/ (scroll about half way down the page)
University graduates were 70-30 in favour of remain.
People with only GCSEs (or equivalents) were approx 68-32 in favour of leave.
 

Gutfright

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I wonder if some leavers will actually realise what a terrible deal we'd actually end up with if we adopted an EEA type thing, as it seems we may. Yes, we'd still have access to the single market but free movement would continue, and more importantly we would no longer have a say in the EU, so we wont be able to use our influence to our advantage. So not only will immigration not fall but we'll also get a more rotten deal than we have now.

But hey, at least we'll have "taken back control"

If you can point me to a single leave voter who favours adopting an EEA type thing, that would be great.
 
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