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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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TheKnightWho

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Probably because all of our problems were not, to the best of my knowledge, anything to do with the EU.

Not entirely. A number of people committed reluctantly to Remain in the end on here who I didn't expect to. The only disagreements between Remain voters now that the results have come out have all been matters of degree.
 
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DarloRich

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But lets be fair about this, racist filth has been spewed in this country, and most others, all others?, since people first discovered their skin or their language was different from another, it is totally unfair to paint everyone in the same manner as the morons who are showing their finely honed sense of stupidity at this moment, give them a week or two and they'll be back to hunting a mammoth for dinner

that is the hope - i believe it should be recognised that the quality ( or lack thereof) of discourse over the referendum has emboldened those with more extreme views.
 

anme

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You just carry on scaremongering!

Welcome back!

We are still waiting for you to say what you think should happen next. EEA membership seems best, right, with free movement of goods and services preserved? Lots of other people have said what they think, so let's have none of the nonsense about the question "not making sense" today. :)
 
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radamfi

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Should there be some kind of organised campaign to lobby for the EEA? Or, like "Stronger In", would it do more harm than good?
 

anme

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Should there be some kind of organised campaign to lobby for the EEA? Or, like "Stronger In", would it do more harm than good?

It will be needed at the appropriate time. It should start organising now, so that it's ready.

It's very hard to predict how British politics will look in 3-4 months - we will have a new prime minister, probably a new leader of the opposition, quite possibly a general election campaign, and in the mean time probably economic turmoil, protests, demands from Scotland to leave, increase in social tension due to increased racism, etc.

The EEA membership issue will divide the Conservative party again, possibly in the very serious way. One would expect Labour to back the EEA, but they are not in a good position and are possibly unpredictable.

The idea of EEA membership needs to be pushed hard at the right moment - that will be soon, but maybe not quite yet.
 
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Senex

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Well I've been away from the forum for a couple of days so this is really my first opportunity to share my thoughts on there about the verdict.

To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement. To my mind this will go down as one of the biggest examples national self-harm in history.

The media cries with shouts of "Britain has decided" but this is a rather simplistic analysis of the situation. The result reveals a heavily divided society in which around half of it voted to leave and the other half voted to remain. The margin of majority (less than four percentage points) is incredibly slight. The Ashcroft poll revealed the day after the vote sheds some light of the key faultlines of this divided society for anyone that is interested in informed and factual analysis rather than baseless speculation.

The will of the majority, however, it is. On a personal level I struggle with this - not the verdict itself, which I respect (calls for parliament to ignore the result, second referendums, and so on are pointless given the decision has been made), but what it means for my own identity and what it means for the politics of this country. If this slight majority verdict is a reflection on what it means to be British - insular, isolated, xenophobic, lacking vision and prosperity - then this calls into question my own identity of something that I was hitherto proud to call myself.

Many of Vote Leave's key campaign promises are quickly unravelling. £350m per week extra for the NHS: a lie. Control over immigration: a lie. Reduced levels of migration: a lie. No economic impact: a lie. Control over our destiny: a lie. The fact key advocates of Leave now distance themselves from these statements demonstrates their wilful and malicious intent to mislead the British public. Much of the referendum campaign was about a mistrust in our politics - unfortunately undeliverable promises which will never be realized will only increase this sense of mistrust. Indeed, Boris's 'manifesto' in the Telegraph today for our post-Brexit relationship with the EU (i.e. access to the single market, free movement of people - looks like the Norway model) might be better summarized simply as "membership of the European Union", albeit without the ability to shape the laws and policy which will inevitably continue to affect us - which does beg two questions. How does this represent Take Back Control? And what was the whole point of this sorry affair? Unless there were some sort of personal gains for the political elite ... hmmm.

The fact the media has been almost exclusively focused on the fallout in Westminster confirms for me this referendum was nothing about the EU, and everything about our domestic politics. When the referendum was first called I posted on here that it was evidence of a crisis in political leadership and would decrease the quality of our democracy as it would allow political leaders to simply absolve themselves of the responsibility for the negative consequences of a decision made by the masses. I stand by this assertion, and the stunning lack of leadership being displayed in Westminster at present illustrates this nicely. The fact key leavers are now freely and openly admitting their wilful deceit of the British public and not facing stronger scrutiny confirms that this has not been an exercise in democracy, but in absolving our political elite of accountability.

I would associate myself strongly with pretty well everything you say here.

You talk about British identity ("If this slight majority verdict is a reflection on what it means to be British - insular, isolated, xenophobic, lacking vision and prosperity - then this calls into question my own identity of something that I was hitherto proud to call myself."), which is something I never claim for myself, but I feel what you say applies even more strongly to my sense of English identity, since that is where the strongest Out vote came from. My only consolation is that all the places I have been most closely involved with voted to Remain!

It is interesting but not surprising that "the media has been almost exclusively focused on the fallout in Westminster", which "confirms for [us] this referendum was nothing about the EU, and everything about our domestic politics".
 

miami

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Would that not be founded in the Historical relationship between these countries? England conquered Wales (to become England and Wales) whilst Scotland remained an independent country until joining Union.

Didn't Scotland conquer England+Wales when their King took the throne?
 

Harbornite

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Didn't Scotland conquer England+Wales when their King took the throne?

Not at all, that's like saying we were conquered by the Dutch when William of Orange became king, or that we were conquered by Spain when King Philip married Mary.
 

Howardh

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This is the situation as I see it now.

Brexit have won the vote and we're leaving. That's their part of the deal done...they can now go away, they should be out of the equation.

Boris (or whoever) has now got to work to keep the 48% on side, and Queen Nicola. That means getting the best trade deals possible, anything else will be seen as failure (?) and to do that, he's likely gonna have to give in over EU border controls, AND he's still to find handouts to Cornwall, Wales, Scotland to cover the EU losses - although personally those areas who voted out shouldn't get a penny.

If he can find a way of not losing the benefits of the EU to the 49% AND getting the best trade deals, that would probably settle the country down and we can get back to our normal bickering. Oh, and being in the EEA would probably save Gibraltar.

The Brexiters might not be happy about not having border controls as *promised* - but I wonder will we see them all marching to Trafalgar Square in protest at the pots of money *promised* to the NHS not appearing?
 

YorkshireBear

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There is a facebook group called worrying signs been set up on facebook for those who have it. Can't link from work unfortunately. It is documenting tweets and posts about racially motivated attacks since the Brexit. Including against non EU communities.

If only 1% of what is being reported turns out to be true then it is still an incredibly large amount of incidents to have taken place. I am not at all suggesting all leave voters think this way. But to think that people see the Vote Leave result as a justification for this and supporting them in what they are doing makes me very nervous indeed. No room for this sort of behaviour in society.

Notable examples (minus the expletives and racist words) including a romanian school girl whose name was graffitied in the toilets telling her to go home.

A german driving her german car being tailgated and shouted at as overtaken to go home.

A romanian wedding photographer who pays taxes in this country with her own business being approached at a wedding fair and being told, once realised she was foreign, "we voted leave so you better get out of this country and never come back" by a couple looking around.

And we have seen the signs about Polish people from Huntingdon being delivered.

I really want to encourage voters from both sides to stand up if you see this sort of behaviour (if safe...), on public transport especially. We are better than this. We all bleed red.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Welcome back!

We are still waiting for you to say what you think should happen next. EEA membership seems best, right, with free movement of goods and services preserved? Lots of other people have said what they think, so let's have none of the nonsense about the question "not making sense" today. :)

I agree, the EEA is the only sensible option now. It's still "out", it shoves two fingers up to the racists, and we don't lose absolutely every single benefit the EU gives us.
 

Domh245

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Cameron delivering a speech to the commons about the referendum at the moment.

edit: He is saying that everyone is to be consulted, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Scotland, Wales, Greater London Authority. They're also going to try and figure out a solution to the Northern Ireland Problem

edit: Corbyn on now asking for Cameron about guarantees to maintain funding to EU funded areas.
 
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Domh245

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Up to that point I thought your post was serious ...........

To quote (as best as I can remember)

"I am going to meet with the leaders with of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to discuss the solution we will implement with regards to the open border"

edit: And now Angus Robertson is questioning Cameron. Will be interesting
Quotes: "No intention of Scotland leaving the EU" "Second independence referendum" "Project Farce"
 
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ExRes

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It isn't a problem then? What is it with Brexiters just denying that something is problem until it hits us all in the face?

Give it a rest, the Northern Ireland problem has been a problem for the whole of my life, I know people who live there and I know people who served there, anyone who thinks that they can solve it because of an EU referendum is hopeful in the extreme
 

Harbornite

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There is a facebook group called worrying signs been set up on facebook for those who have it. Can't link from work unfortunately. It is documenting tweets and posts about racially motivated attacks since the Brexit. Including against non EU communities.

If only 1% of what is being reported turns out to be true then it is still an incredibly large amount of incidents to have taken place. I am not at all suggesting all leave voters think this way. But to think that people see the Vote Leave result as a justification for this and supporting them in what they are doing makes me very nervous indeed. No room for this sort of behaviour in society.

Notable examples (minus the expletives and racist words) including a romanian school girl whose name was graffitied in the toilets telling her to go home.

A german driving her german car being tailgated and shouted at as overtaken to go home.

A romanian wedding photographer who pays taxes in this country with her own business being approached at a wedding fair and being told, once realised she was foreign, "we voted leave so you better get out of this country and never come back" by a couple looking around.

And we have seen the signs about Polish people from Huntingdon being delivered.

I really want to encourage voters from both sides to stand up if you see this sort of behaviour (if safe...), on public transport especially. We are better than this. We all bleed red.

This is the calibre of just some of the brexiters. What wonderful people they are and I'm glad they live in our country :roll:
 

TheKnightWho

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Give it a rest, the Northern Ireland problem has been a problem for the whole of my life, I know people who live there and I know people who served there, anyone who thinks that they can solve it because of an EU referendum is hopeful in the extreme

So you don't mind if the Troubles to start up again, do you?
 

TheKnightWho

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Please tell me when 'the troubles' ever ended

Considering things are much better now than the 80s, this seems to be another case of pedantically trying to argue that Brexit won't cause problems by saying that they would have happened anyway/never went away.
 

chorleyjeff

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This is the situation as I see it now.

Brexit have won the vote and we're leaving. That's their part of the deal done...they can now go away, they should be out of the equation.

Boris (or whoever) has now got to work to keep the 48% on side, and Queen Nicola. That means getting the best trade deals possible, anything else will be seen as failure (?) and to do that, he's likely gonna have to give in over EU border controls, AND he's still to find handouts to Cornwall, Wales, Scotland to cover the EU losses - although personally those areas who voted out shouldn't get a penny.

In other words London gets the goodies again.
Is the concept of a United Kingdom to be abandond for partisan distribution of Govt. money?
 

Domh245

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Clegg now asking about a General Election. Cameron saying that it'll be up to next PM to decide if they want to call an early election.
 

ExRes

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Considering things are much better now than the 80s, this seems to be another case of pedantically trying to argue that Brexit won't cause problems by saying that they would have happened anyway/never went away.

You are the one being pedantic and you are the one trying to put words into peoples mouths, I'm not arguing Brexit in the least, I'm arguing that the problems in Northen Ireland have never ceased and won't be settled by the referendum vote, not even if it had been for Remain

You have no need to compare Northern Ireland in the 80s with now to me, I'm far more aware of the effects it had on people than you are or ever will be
 

TheKnightWho

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You are the one being pedantic and you are the one trying to put words into peoples mouths, I'm not arguing Brexit in the least, I'm arguing that the problems in Northen Ireland have never ceased and won't be settled by the referendum vote, not even if it had been for Remain

You have no need to compare Northern Ireland in the 80s with now to me, I'm far more aware of the effects it had on people than you are or ever will be

So you think Brexit will cause no change, regardless of the border issue?
 

miami

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Clegg now asking about a General Election. Cameron saying that it'll be up to next PM to decide if they want to call an early election.

No. No it won't. The next PM can't decide.

Parliament can if they vote for a motion of no confidence in the government and stick with it for 14 days, or if 66% of parliament agrees. There's no guarantees of either of those.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You are the one being pedantic and you are the one trying to put words into peoples mouths, I'm not arguing Brexit in the least, I'm arguing that the problems in Northen Ireland have never ceased and won't be settled by the referendum vote, not even if it had been for Remain

You have no need to compare Northern Ireland in the 80s with now to me, I'm far more aware of the effects it had on people than you are or ever will be

You're right, NI is a very delicate balance, and has been for the best part of 20 years. However any change to the relationship one way or another has the potential to slip off that edge. I don't see how a leave vote has the ability to improve the situation.
 

ExRes

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So you think Brexit will cause no change, regardless of the border issue?

If Northern Ireland and the Republic were to join together it would, hopefully, solve some of the problems, although I can't see how. EU or no EU there will still be Catholics and Protestants and there will still be centuries old hatred between them, if you or anyone else could bring a lasting and truthful peace then they will be entitled to a pocketful of Nobel awards, if you can come up with the answer I'll personally put you forward for one most happily

In my opinion neither side wish to find a peace and will always find ways of avoiding one, the border issue is one which will not bring an end to hatred or religious mistrust within Ireland
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't see how a leave vote has the ability to improve the situation.

Agreed, nor do I see how a remain vote would have the ability to improve the situation
 
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