EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[anme]

I apologise if I didn't make myself clear as I was short of time when posting

My point was that I believe some people are calling for an election assuming that the winners could then overturn the result of a democratically held referendum

No. People are calling for an election because the UK now faces the biggest decision it's made in the last fifty years (at least). Much bigger than the referendum we have just had. And none of the parties' manifestos dealt with this at the last election. We have to decide what comes next. We have to decide whether we want to remain in the single market, which will mean we have to accept full freedom of movement of people - and there's no certainly we will even be offered this option. Or we have to choose isolation and starting our trading relationships from scratch. Or some other option (please post suggestions )

This is a massive choice, and it needs to be made democratically.

 

[ExRes]

Are you aware of the concept of free speech?

Another 'free speech' comment, were you and the other Remain supporters on this forum aware of that concept during the lead up to the vote?

All I ever seemed to see on here were shouts of 'racist' and 'little englander' whenever someone made comments supporting Leave, I assume you want it both ways?

 

[krus_aragon]

What hurts is those, and I read there are big enough numbers who would alter the result, are more than upset that they have found out what they voted for is an illusion, and had they known...
Now that WOULD be truly democratic, allowing a re-run now the truth is out.

I haven't come across this, and am not going to try sloshing through Facebook and the like looking for it. Could you perhaps illustrate for me what "truth" has come to light? What revelations have changed people's minds (other than seeing that Leave got 52% of the vote)?

 

[anme]

Another 'free speech' comment, were you and the other Remain supporters on this forum aware of that concept during the lead up to the vote?

All I ever seemed to see on here were shouts of 'racist' and 'little englander' whenever someone made comments supporting Leave, I assume you want it both ways?

Calling someone a "racist" or a "little Englander" is also free speech. And also quite justified when that person is a racist or a little Englander.

Anyway, time for you to answer a question. What do you think should happen now? Do we try to stay in the single market, accepting freedom of trade *and* free movement of people (they will come together - both or neither) - or do we go for isolation and starting from scratch? Or something else?

 

[Senex]

Please note - I accept the result of the referendum however moronic it is, but it's interesting to think how this will pan out.

Though I do wonder about the validity of an outcome based on a campaign whose own principals now admit to have been based on lies.

 

[ExRes]

I haven't come across this, and am not going to try sloshing through Facebook and the like looking for it. Could you perhaps illustrate for me what "truth" has come to light? What revelations have changed people's minds (other than seeing that Leave got 52% of the vote)?

I wonder just how many of those people helped to make up the shameful 28%

 

[DelayRepay]

All I ever seemed to see on here were shouts of 'racist' and 'little englander' whenever someone made comments supporting Leave, I assume you want it both ways?

On the one hand, I think I saw comments from Remain pointing out the impact on the economy, jobs and our place in the world. Those predictions, so far, have not been proven untrue.

On the other hand, from the Leave campaign I saw sensible comments about the benefits of having more control over our migration policy and laws. Whilst I disagreed with the majority of these views that did not make them any less valid than my opinions.

However, some elements of the leave campaign have made comments which were untrue, some were xenophobic and some, I'm afraid to say were downright racist.

But the debate has been had and Leave won. Even though I voted Remain I will try to stay positive and look forward to our bright new future.

So I ask again, please tell me what this bright new future actually looks like. I did not vote for it but you did, so you must know.

 

[anme]

It's debatable whether a few people on here have anything productive to say

You have refused to say what *you think* should happen next, on the grounds that it's a "ridiculous question" that "cannot be answered".

I'm going to ask you again. What do *you think* should happen next? EEA membership, with free movement of goods *and* people (it will be both or neither)? Isolation? Something else?

 

[Dave1987]

It's debatable whether a few people on here have anything productive to say

Enough of all the snidy remarks. Vote Leave won, well done etc etc. Why have Johnson and Gove been so quiet since the result was announced? Why haven't they detailed how they are going to actually implement the Brexit they wanted? Or did they expect Cameron to do their dirty work for them? Why have they now said Article 50 shouldn't be enacted immediately? All genuine questions.

 

[anme]

If I was to call you a loser would that be 'free speech' as well?

Yes.

Obviously.

It would even be accurate, on the grounds that I was and am a remain supporter. I am indeed a loser.

Do you understand what free speech is?

 

[Railops]

Though I do wonder about the validity of an outcome based on a campaign whose own principals now admit to have been based on lies.

It might shock you to find out that lies are a normal part of every election from all sides. It's part and parcel of politics unfortunately.

 

[Antman]

Enough of all the snidy remarks. Vote Leave won, well done etc etc. Why have Johnson and Gove been so quiet since the result was announced? Why haven't they detailed how they are going to actually implement the Brexit they wanted? Or did they expect Cameron to do their dirty work for them? Why have they now said Article 50 shouldn't be enacted immediately? All genuine questions.

Thank you, I'm afraid I can't answer your question about Messrs. Johnson and Gove.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It might shock you to find out that lies are a normal part of every election from all sides. It's part and parcel of politics unfortunately.

You've hit the nail on the head!

 

[DaleCooper]

I voted "Remain" and I confess more for idealistic reasons than practical ones so I can sympathise, if not agree, with those who voted "Leave" for similar reasons. I would not expect those voters to know in detail what comes next, they presumably trust politicians to do something approximating to the right thing, as I did when I voted in the first "EC" referendum. I'm disappointed at the result but accept it although that doesn't stop me from wondering just what will happen but I'm not to going waste ink discussing it on here..

 

[Dave1987]

Thank you, I'm afraid I can't answer your question about Messrs. Johnson and Gove.

I don't believe Johnson or Gove ever actually thought they would win. And now they have won they have no idea what to do and just hope the problem will just go away, which it won't.

 

[ExRes]

Yes.

Obviously.

It would even be accurate, on the grounds that I was and am a remain supporter. I am indeed a loser.

Do you understand what free speech is?

Excellent, thank you, and yes, I'm fully aware of what free speech is, although it's meaning tends to get very blurred on this forum, mainly depending on whose keyboard it emanates from

 

[Howardh]

No. People are calling for an election because the UK now faces the biggest decision it's made in the last fifty years (at least). Much bigger than the referendum we have just had. And none of the parties' manifestos dealt with this at the last election. We have to decide what comes next. We have to decide whether we want to remain in the single market, which will mean we have to accept full freedom of movement of people - and there's no certainly we will even be offered this option. Or we have to choose isolation and starting our trading relationships from scratch. Or some other option (please post suggestions )

This is a massive choice, and it needs to be made democratically.

Yes, and we need the right representatives to work on our behalf. As there were no "other options" on the referendum, it's up to Parliament to come up with the best solution for the UK, and to appease most on both sides.
Once some kind of exit has been decided, do we put that to the vote though?

 

[Railops]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-result-latest-david-lammy-mp-eu-referendum-result-parliament-twitter-statement-stop-this-a7102931.html

David Lammy MP urges Parliament to ignore EU referendum result: 'We can stop this madness'

'The referendum was was an advisory, non-binding referendum'
Labour MP David Lammy has called on Parliament to "stop this madness" and to vote against the referendum decision to leave the EU.

In a statement on his Twitter feed, the MP for Tottenham and former Higher Education and Skills Minister said: "Wake up. We do not have to do this.

"We can stop this madness and bring this nightmare to an end through a vote in Parliament. Our sovereign Parliament needs to now vote on whether we should exit the EU.

A great advert for the labour party advocating to ignore the will of the people.

 

[anme]

Excellent, thank you, and yes, I'm fully aware of what free speech is, although it's meaning tends to get very blurred on this forum, mainly depending on whose keyboard it emanates from

No it doesn't. The meaning of free speech is very clear. There is no blurring of its meaning.

Anyway, time for you to answer a question. What do *you think* should happen next? EEA membership, with free movement of goods *and* people (it will be both or neither)? Isolation? Something else?

You got us into this situation. I want to know how you're going to fix it.

 

[krus_aragon]

BREAKING NEWS

Johnson, Gove and Farage have declined an invitation to appear on BBC's "A Question Of Sport" in order to avoid the "What Happens Next?" round.

Oh, how I laughed. You, sir, deserve a cookie.

 

[bb21]

I don't believe Johnson or Gove ever actually thought they would win. And now they have won they have no idea what to do and just hope the problem will just go away, which it won't.

That, I think, is one of the main reasons why now the Leave campaign have won they have no idea what happens next.

I don't believe for a second BoJo is a Euro-sceptic. It is just a tool he could use to deliver a blow to Cameron, like an attempt at a coup, while pretending on the face of it that he had "absolutely no ambition in that direction".

Now that he has achieved more than he bargained for at the beginning, he found himself in an unenviable position of potentially having to lead the country into the messy negotiations, and possibly more, bet he didn't see that coming.

 

[Antman]

Excellent, thank you, and yes, I'm fully aware of what free speech is, although it's meaning tends to get very blurred on this forum, mainly depending on whose keyboard it emanates from

That's a bit of a low blow

I think you make a valid point though.

 

[DaleCooper]

You got us into this situation. I want to know how you're going to fix it.

I can understand your frustration, as I said above I voted "Remain", however you really can't expect Antman to be able to answer that question; there's no reason to suppose he or any other member of this forum has that kind of expertise.

 

[bb21]

Excellent, thank you, and yes, I'm fully aware of what free speech is, although it's meaning tends to get very blurred on this forum, mainly depending on whose keyboard it emanates from

Depends on where "free speech" stands in relation to the rules forum members signed up to at registration stage.

 

[anme]

That, I think, is one of the main reasons why now the Leave campaign have won they have no idea what happens next.

I don't believe for a second BoJo is a Euro-sceptic. It is just a tool he could use to deliver a blow to Cameron, like an attempt at a coup, while pretending on the face of it that he had "absolutely no ambition in that direction".

Now that he has achieved more than he bargained for at the beginning, he found himself in an unenviable position of potentially having to lead the country into the messy negotiations, and possibly more, bet he didn't see that coming.

Agree. This is an interesting article - https://www.facebook.com/tom.short.351/posts/10155134392909152 - not sure I agree with its conclusion (that the UK won't ever actually invoke article 50), but it contains some very interesting ideas. The next prime minister will not have an easy or pleasant job, and risks being seen as the most disastrous in history.

 

[EM2]

I don't believe for a second BoJo is a Euro-sceptic. It is just a tool he could use to deliver a blow to Cameron, like an attempt at a coup, while pretending on the face of it that he had "absolutely no ambition in that direction".

Johnson just wants to remind Cameron that he was made Head Boy at Eton while Cameron was a mere prefect.

 

[Harbornite]

"It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe."

Boris Johnson, before he jumped on the Brexit bandwagon.

 

[anme]

I can understand your frustration, as I said above I voted "Remain", however you really can't expect Antman to be able to answer that question; there's no reason to suppose he or any other member of this forum has that kind of expertise.

I *do* expect leave voters to have thought about this.

Even if they haven't thought about it, I can very quickly explain. In fact I have done so many times on this forum. At a high level, the question is very simple. There are two obvious paths.

One is to try to emulate Norway, and remain in the EEA - this means accepting free movement of goods and people (both or neither), while having little say over the rules. There's not guarantee, by the way, that the EEA would accept the UK remaining in this, or may impose unfavourable conditions such as removing Britain's opt outs to certain conditions.

The other is to leave entirely, with our relationship with the EU and EEA being on the same level as every other country, and to be negotiated from scratch (the EU has 52 trade deals, so this is not easy).

Maybe there are other options - please post if you see them.

The clock is ticking. Uncertainty is bad for the economy, and bad for people's lives.

What do we do?

 

[Busaholic]

Farage, a former Stockbroker from Surrey .

I'd love to say he's from Surrey, but, unfortunately, he's from my neck of the woods. A true Kentishman, but careful how you pronounce the vowels.

 

[Howardh]

I *do* expect leave voters to have thought about this.

Even if they haven't thought about it, I can very quickly explain. In fact I have done so many times on this forum. At a high level, the question is very simple. There are two obvious paths.

One is to try to emulate Norway, and remain in the EEA - this means accepting free movement of goods and people (both or neither), while having little say over the rules. There's not guarantee, by the way, that the EEA would accept the UK remaining in this, or may impose unfavourable conditions such as removing Britain's opt outs to certain conditions.

The other is to leave entirely, with our relationship with the EU and EEA being on the same level as every other country, and to be negotiated from scratch (the EU has 52 trade deals, so this is not easy).

Maybe there are other options - please post if you see them.

The clock is ticking. Uncertainty is bad for the economy, and bad for people's lives.

What do we do?

Serious question, who do we negotiate with r/e the EU? Individual countries or the EU as a whole?

 

[EM2]

Serious question, who do we negotiate with r/e the EU? Individual countries or the EU as a whole?

The EU as a whole.
This article explains it pretty well: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/