EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bletchleyite]

You realise that freedom of movement applies to you as well, right? And to all other UK citizens? For the time being, anyway.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, and have made use of it on a few occasions.

No one on this thread has ever said that freedom of movement within the EU (and EEA) is an amazing right and privilege for us to have.
Apart from one person.

Indeed it is, though I would prefer to see it available to a wider range of people than just EU citizens, at least to some extent.
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We so need a *like* button.

Quite. FWIW the forum software can do that, I use another forum that has one (they call it "thanks") and uses the same software.

 

[anme]

Yes, I'm well aware of that, and have made use of it on a few occasions.

Indeed it is, though I would prefer to see it available to a wider range of people than just EU citizens, at least to some extent.

I'd have no problem with that, but it would need be reciprocated. That's the critical point - it has to be a reciprocal arrangement, applying equally to citizens of all countries concerned.

BTW, the UK could unilaterally extend the right to live and work there to anyone it chooses, without consulting the EU. The UK controls its own borders, whatever lies we may have heard elsewhere.

And BTW again, to be clear I'm talking about the right to *live and work* anywhere in the EU and EEA with basically the same rights as a local. Not just to visit for the weekend on Easyjet. (not having a go at Mr Williams, just clarifying the point)
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I don't agree but I would defend somebodys right to express such an opinion.

So to be clear, you wouldn't criticise a newsreader or a politician who didn't wear a poppy in early November?

 

[radamfi]

No one on this thread has ever said that freedom of movement within the EU (and EEA) is an amazing right and privilege for us to have.
Apart from one person.

I can't remember if that one person is me, but I certainly would agree with that statement.

The main reason I want freedom of movement is selfish. I want to use it myself in the future. But I believe in general that people should not be physically stuck in one place just because they were born there. My one reservation about EU freedom of movement is that it makes it harder for non-Europeans, and so I can see where Neil is coming from. In an ideal world there would be no countries so people could go wherever they want. That's probably an impossible dream, but we should at least make the zone of freedom as big as we can.

 

[Mvann]

As stated earlier, I have no problem with free movement, but at times there may need to be restrictions. If this country had an epidemic of Spanish flu, you would want to impose restrictions (and yes this is an extreme case). Same if the infrastructure can't cope. Having had a little experience with schengan via South African friends, there are bits of it I can see the point to. If a South African comes to this country to work, I can't see why a tourist visa for the whole of Europe can't be issued. Same if they went to Germany and have the tourist bit. I can also see the point with the new bit of paperwork for repeat visitors. If someone from America has to come here for meetings 4 or 5 times a year why wouldn't you want to get the paperwork once and be valid for other visits during the year.

 

[Howardh]

As stated earlier, I have no problem with free movement, but at times there may need to be restrictions. If this country had an epidemic of Spanish flu, you would want to impose restrictions (and yes this is an extreme case). Same if the infrastructure can't cope. Having had a little experience with schengan via South African friends, there are bits of it I can see the point to. If a South African comes to this country to work, I can't see why a tourist visa for the whole of Europe can't be issued. Same if they went to Germany and have the tourist bit. I can also see the point with the new bit of paperwork for repeat visitors. If someone from America has to come here for meetings 4 or 5 times a year why wouldn't you want to get the paperwork once and be valid for other visits during the year.

There is a tourist visa which covers the EU for non-europeans. I doubt UK citizens will ever be required to have one...think of the costs of administration which would be put on to the visa, which could put people off travelling (especially spur-of-the-moment) both ways, which would hit our, and the EU's, tourist income.
Add the open Irish border so people with said visa wouldn't need to show it to enter the UK, so it wouldn't really have any more clout than an ordinary passport.
Think, even under extreme Brexit, EU countries may simply request an in-date 10 year UK passport. I flipping well hope so anyway.

 

[Mvann]

I didn't know for sure wether it covered all EU countries and my point was as an add on to a non EU work permit. My dealings were a number of years ago when that wasn't the case.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

As stated earlier, I have no problem with free movement, but at times there may need to be restrictions. If this country had an epidemic of Spanish flu, you would want to impose restrictions (and yes this is an extreme case). Same if the infrastructure can't cope.

That would be my view too. Free movement is a great ideal, and I think it's something we should be striving for - because allowing people freedom to live their lives as they wish - including choosing where they live - is a great thing. Too often free movement has been presented as a bad thing by Brexiters who don't acknowledge its benefits - including the benefits to British citizens.

I do think though it's regrettable that EU freedom of movement doesn't include some provision for countries to require that people learn the local language, law, and customs etc. in order to live in that country. And similarly, there ought to be provision for individual countries to temporarily restrict inward free movement in some way if immigration levels become high enough to cause infrastructure issues, or in emergencies (such as your epidemic example).

The sad thing is that if we'd remained in the EU and had been willing to take a full part in the EU, we perhaps could have advocated that kind of reform - I imagine at least a few other countries would have been sympathetic to it. But if we're out of the EU, we have no chance of doing that. Most likely, it's either EEA and full freedom of movement, or nothing.

 

[Groningen]

If a South African comes to this country to work, I can't see why a tourist visa for the whole of Europe can't be issued.

So a South African and East european should be treated the same. Hey; why not add Australia and New Zealand. Do you know what happens if you work on a tourist visa in Australia and get caught. Yes; they deport you and may not enter Australia for 3 years.

What does tourist visa let me do?
If you are granted with tourist visa:
You can stay in Australia up to one year (12 months) - note that the period of stay granted will depend on the purpose of the visit and your personal circumstances,
You can study up to 3 months
You cannot work in Australia
This visa will allow you either a single or multiple entries to Australia

If this country had an epidemic of Spanish flu, you would want to impose restrictions

How much did you drink this evening?

By the way: guess what country praises the Brexit? yes; Iran. Must make Boris Johnson proud. Washington Post as source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/28/why-iran-was-so-quick-to-praise-brexit/

 

[RichmondCommu]

Interesting that the police officers in the background don't seem to be overly concerned about the t shirt, yes it's a bit stupid but hardly a big deal.

I wouldn't feel sad if he was hit by a bus. I'd feel sorry for the driver and their passengers but not him.

 

[cjmillsnun]

You realise that freedom of movement applies to you as well, right? And to all other UK citizens? For the time being, anyway.

No one on this thread has ever said that freedom of movement within the EU (and EEA) is an amazing right and privilege for us to have.
Apart from one person.

I agree it is. Freedom of movement for all EU citizens was one of the reasons I voted remain.

 

[radamfi]

My idea about getting another member state to give us citizenship wasn't that far fetched:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36653599

Italian prime minister Matteo Renzi has suggested that UK students wanting to study in Europe could receive passports from other European Union countries.

He was responding to concerns that UK students might find it more difficult to study at European universities after the referendum vote.

Mr Renzi said he wanted to find a way for UK students to gain passports while they studied for degree courses.

 

[TheKnightWho]

And are you equally concerned about those who burn poppies and suggest that British soldiers should burn in hell or is that somehow different?

Always diverting attention from the problems at home, you are.

 

[Abpj17]

As stated earlier, I have no problem with free movement, but at times there may need to be restrictions. If this country had an epidemic of Spanish flu, you would want to impose restrictions (and yes this is an extreme case). Same if the infrastructure can't cope. Having had a little experience with schengan via South African friends, there are bits of it I can see the point to. If a South African comes to this country to work, I can't see why a tourist visa for the whole of Europe can't be issued. Same if they went to Germany and have the tourist bit. I can also see the point with the new bit of paperwork for repeat visitors. If someone from America has to come here for meetings 4 or 5 times a year why wouldn't you want to get the paperwork once and be valid for other visits during the year.

Epidemics aren't a good reason - it's naive at best if that motivated anyone's voting - it feels like clutching at straws. Restrictions on travel can be put in place at any time (and are) for 'crisis' reasons. That's completely different to immigration/migration.

Four or five times a year is not freedom of movement.

 

[Darren R]

What utter nonsense and it's quite sad that some people clearly voted remain purely on the basis that they didn't like Nigel Farage.

Au contraire mon frere! I decided to vote leave based solely on the prospect of seeing the odious Mr Farage's face when he finds himself escorted from the Espace Leopold, having lost his extremely lucrative job as an MEP. He'll find the pay, perks and exes at Westminster much less generous!


Then I thought for a moment, and decided that leaving the EU wasn't actually a price worth paying.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why has The Commonwealth not been mentioned on this thread. Is it too anachronistic an organisation in the year 2016 and mainly a ceremonial reminder of the "Days of Empire" with the British monarch at the head of the organisation.

 

[Rich McLean]

Why has The Commonwealth not been mentioned on this thread. Is it too anachronistic an organisation in the year 2016 and mainly a ceremonial reminder of the "Days of Empire" with the British monarch at the head of the organisation.

It doesn't exist any more (in all but name), and setting up trade deals with the Commonwealth would be treated the same as setting up trade deals elsewhere. Also shipping costs in this day and age would be massive for large scale trade

 

[WestCoast]

I do think though it's regrettable that EU freedom of movement doesn't include some provision for countries to require that people learn the local language, law, and customs etc. in order to live in that country. And similarly, there ought to be provision for individual countries to temporarily restrict inward free movement in some way if immigration levels become high enough to cause infrastructure issues, or in emergencies (such as your epidemic example).

I totally agree, but it's probably unworkable in reality. I also think that other European countries view the issue differently, in that they actually don't expect "expats" from places like the UK to speak their languages or join their communities. Luxembourg always amazes me as a country; the natives tend to speak four languages but many of the (migrant) workers just one or two. No one bats an eyelid. They tend to live in different communities but everyone gets on very well, probably as the living standard is high.

The job market usually filters out unsuitable labour market participants. Good luck getting any sort of customer facing work in say, Germany, if you don't speak the local language. Only those with highly specialised skills or wishing to work in low skilled positions can usually bypass these requirements.

The "problem" for the UK is of course that most of Europe's younger workers speak English to some degree, and tend to have some knowledge about the UK. While an Italian waiter can adapt to life in the UK fairly easily, a person from the UK is going to have difficulty finding similar work in Italy. The key exceptions being the British "enclaves" on the Spanish costas, but I find a lot of Spanish locals work there too.

 

[Howardh]

My idea about getting another member state to give us citizenship wasn't that far fetched:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36653599

It's along those lines. Maybe the EU could look favourably to the retired who, when they retire, obviously pump money into their *new* country and an EU passport could give them F.O.M + access to local medical services.

But I hope whatever happens, the EU and UK allow anyone in the UK to obtain a "free pass" - even if we have to pay for it above the UK passport, and we can continue as before. It wouldn't affect UK immigration in the slightest; but would be a bit more income to the issuing country and we maintain our rights.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can't remember if that one person is me, but I certainly would agree with that statement. The main reason I want freedom of movement is selfish. I want to use it myself in the future. But I believe in general that people should not be physically stuck in one place just because they were born there.

Over the millennia, people have made movements away from their homeland, some by enslavement unfortunately.

 

[muz379]

Quote from Boris Johnson: People of Britain can always work in the EU: reside, study, buy houses and life. There will always be free trade and access to the internal market. Only thing that changes are dumping of the EU laws.

The same Boris who talked in that very same article about the EU law enacted by the courts . I really hate to break it to Mr Johnson in such a way but courts do not enact legislation . Perhaps we really ought to stop listening to Mr Johnson until such time as he has sought expert advice on EU law .

I do think though it's regrettable that EU freedom of movement doesn't include some provision for countries to require that people learn the local language, law, and customs etc. in order to live in that country. And similarly, there ought to be provision for individual countries to temporarily restrict inward free movement in some way if immigration levels become high enough to cause infrastructure issues, or in emergencies (such as your epidemic example).

There are provisions in EU law for derogation from the four freedoms for various reasons and public health is one of them so there is actually a possibility for limiting freedom of movement when necessary . Unfortunately as many leave voters seem not to be learned in EU law (Boris included) this point was probably lost on them .

 

[Mvann]

So a South African and East european should be treated the same. Hey; why not add Australia and New Zealand. Do you know what happens if you work on a tourist visa in Australia and get caught. Yes; they deport you and may not enter Australia for 3 years.

What does tourist visa let me do?
If you are granted with tourist visa:
You can stay in Australia up to one year (12 months) - note that the period of stay granted will depend on the purpose of the visit and your personal circumstances,
You can study up to 3 months
You cannot work in Australia
This visa will allow you either a single or multiple entries to Australia


How much did you drink this evening?

By the way: guess what country praises the Brexit? yes; Iran. Must make Boris Johnson proud. Washington Post as source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/28/why-iran-was-so-quick-to-praise-brexit/

You have completley missed the point. An Eastern European from an EU country has free movement. A South African doesnt. He has to apply for a work permit otherwise he cannot work in this country. As said South African may want to travel around Europe as a tourist, I cant see a problem with adding a Touristvisa to the work permit, rather than having to apply for two different types of visa

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Strong rumours that Article 50 has been activated...

Here we go then, boys and girls, strap in for the crazy train

 

[Rich McLean]

Strong rumours that Article 50 has been activated...

Here we go then, boys and girls, strap in for the crazy train

Nothing on the news yet, and Cameron said nothing of the sort at a press conference in the EU Council last night. In fact he said that there was no rush, and senior EU official have said that it doesn't have to be invoked straight away, just that no negotiations will take place until it has been invoked

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Nothing on the news yet, and Cameron said nothing of the sort at a press conference in the EU Council last night

One of the videos on twitter had the head guy at the EU clearly say, and I quote "The divorce has now begun... Now we work out details"

To me, that suggests Article 50 has been activated

 

[Springs Branch]

Why has The Commonwealth not been mentioned on this thread. Is it too anachronistic an organisation in the year 2016 and mainly a ceremonial reminder of the "Days of Empire" with the British monarch at the head of the organisation.

It's been a ceremonial & cultural institution for years.
I now live in Australia, and never hear about or think about the Commonwealth of Nations from one month to the next.

Its main values to my mind are:-

• Heads of State of minor countries and assorted tropical islands get to sit together and have a photo with the Queen once every few years at a Commonweath conference.
• For Aussies there's the four-yearly Commonwealth Games, when Australia can still go and take the lion's share of Gold Medals without having to compete against pesky Russians, Americans and Chinese (and their highly-developed pharmaceutical industries).

I wonder what the future holds for the Commonwealth when Charles III is the figurehead.

Australia's most important trading partners are China, Japan, USA and South Korea - none of these in the Commonwealth of course.
The UK is in 7th place, just above Malaysia & Thailand (which are not in the Commonwealth either), and I doubt Brexit will alter this sequence.

 

[Rich McLean]

One of the videos on twitter had the head guy at the EU clearly say, and I quote "The divorce has now begun... Now we work out details"

To me, that suggests Article 50 has been activated

By that, the EU, without Britain present, will discuss how they go about it before Article 50 is invoked. Discussions between the two will only take place after that point, and not before it. However that doesn't stop discussions within the EU itself (without UK representation) and discussion within our own Parliment

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Farage has contributed nothing of value to the debate and his outrageous behaviour at the European Parliament earlier was crass, classless and does the reputation of Brits abroad even less favour than the England football supporters.

Beware, the Antichrist is amongst us and to quote from 2 Corinthians 11:14...
"...and no wonder for Satan transforms himself into an Angel of Light"

 

[anme]

Why has The Commonwealth not been mentioned on this thread. Is it too anachronistic an organisation in the year 2016 and mainly a ceremonial reminder of the "Days of Empire" with the British monarch at the head of the organisation.

Yes. It is.
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You have completley missed the point. An Eastern European from an EU country has free movement. A South African doesnt. He has to apply for a work permit otherwise he cannot work in this country. As said South African may want to travel around Europe as a tourist, I cant see a problem with adding a Touristvisa to the work permit, rather than having to apply for two different types of visa

The UK doesn't have the power to issue visas of any kind for the Schengen area, as we are not part of the Schengen area.

 

[Senex]

It's been a ceremonial & cultural institution for years.
I now live in Australia, and never hear about or think about the Commonwealth of Nations from one month to the next.

Its main values to my mind are:-

• Heads of State of minor countries and assorted tropical islands get to sit together and have a photo with the Queen once every few years at a Commonweath conference.
• For Aussies there's the four-yearly Commonwealth Games, when Australia can still go and take the lion's share of Gold Medals without having to compete against pesky Russians, Americans and Chinese (and their highly-developed pharmaceutical industries).

I wonder what the future holds for the Commonwealth when Charles III is the figurehead.

Australia's most important trading partners are China, Japan, USA and South Korea - none of these in the Commonwealth of course.
The UK is in 7th place, just above Malaysia & Thailand (which are not in the Commonwealth either), and I doubt Brexit will alter this sequence.

A useful reminder of how little the idea of the Commonwealth means these days either to people in the more important Commonwealth countries or to people here in the British Isles -- except for many of an older generation and the young fogeys of the Farage variety.

 

[DarloRich]

One of the videos on twitter had the head guy at the EU clearly say, and I quote "The divorce has now begun... Now we work out details"

To me, that suggests Article 50 has been activated

I don't think it has been - i think you are reading too much into statements. The divorce has begun, but we are still at the stage of solicitors writing letters and deciding which ground to use.