Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Class455]

Now that the Azuma's are nearly in service and Mark 4's are going to be released in the coming weeks, do we know any more details about the three MK4 rakes that Transport for Wales are due to receive from LNER, such as which sets they'll be receiving and when they'll enter service by?

 

[PHILIPE]

Now that the Azuma's are nearly in service and Mark 4's are going to be released in the coming weeks, do we know any more details about the three MK4 rakes that Transport for Wales are due to receive from LNER, such as which sets they'll be receiving and when they'll enter service by?

I doubt any sets have even been selected yet but hopefully in service for TFW in December 2019

 

[59CosG95]

I doubt any sets have even been selected yet but hopefully in service for TFW in December 2019

They won't need much in the way of modification by that time, just rewiring from TDM (Time-Division Multiplexing) to the AAR (American Association of Railroads) system used on the existing 67-compatible DVTs (i.e. the 82/3s); they're already PRM-compliant (i.e. accessible, with door-sounders and retention tanks) and all the livery needs is a strip-off of the old VTEC vinyls and/or LNER branding, with red vinyls over the doors instead. The final livery design for the DVT will be interesting though...

(Edited for explanation of PRM-compliant, AAR & TDM)

 

[Jozhua]

Seen the existing MK3 sets run through Manchester before. Will be a treat if we see the new MK4s every so often as well!

 

[sprinterguy]

Seen the existing MK3 sets run through Manchester before. Will be a treat if we see the new MK4s every so often as well!

They won't be running through Manchester in normal service. Two sets will cover three trips each way on the Holyhead - Cardiff route.

 

[cactustwirly]

They won't need much in the way of modification by that time, just rewiring from TDM to the AAR system used on the existing 67-compatible DVTs (i.e. the 82/3s); they're already PRM-compliant and all the livery needs is a strip-off of the old VTEC vinyls and/or LNER branding, with red vinyls over the doors instead. The final livery design for the DVT will be interesting though...

They're not quite RVAR* compliant, they'll need a PIS (passenger information system) fitting

*http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/432/schedule/1/made

 

[Ianno87]

They won't be running through Manchester in normal service. Two sets will cover three trips each way on the Holyhead - Cardiff route.

The stepping distance on Piccadilly Platform 13 would be....interesting!

 

[craigybagel]

I suspect a bigger time issue will be getting staff trained up rather then the necessary modifications to make them suitable for TfW....

 

[fireftrm]

And they will need work internally as TfW say 19 first class seats so I assume Coach H will be amended to make the seating area 1st and the buffet closed with trolley only in standard, or turned so that it is at the standard end

 

[hexagon789]

And they will need work internally as TfW say 19 first class seats so I assume Coach H will be amended to make the seating area 1st and the buffet closed with trolley only in standard, or turned so that it is at the standard end

I'd guess turned so the SV (Service Vehicle) is back the original way, seeing as it's reverting to First Class. Then the buffet could be in service as well as separating First and Standard.

 

[ainsworth74]

And they will need work internally as TfW say 19 first class seats so I assume Coach H will be amended to make the seating area 1st and the buffet closed with trolley only in standard, or turned so that it is at the standard end

Oh where's that come from? I've been wondering about it for a while as a full coach of 1st class has always felt a bit like overkill but equally would they want the faff of swapping what is currently coach H back to it's original configuration?! So it's good to know they've made a decision. I wonder if they'll take seats from existing Mk4 TFs or if they'll go for something new seeing as there aren't any 1st class seats in those vehicles right now of course! Also wonder if they'll fit power sockets?

 

[hexagon789]

Oh where's that come from? I've been wondering about it for a while as a full coach of 1st class has always felt a bit like overkill but equally would they want the faff of swapping what is currently coach H back to it's original configuration?! So it's good to know they've made a decision. I wonder if they'll take seats from existing Mk4 TFs or if they'll go for something new seeing as there aren't any 1st class seats in those vehicles right now of course! Also wonder if they'll fit power sockets?

Reconfiguring an SV (Service Vehicle), is what I always expected them to do, the only other option is can see would've been altering a PO (Pullman Open) into some kind of composite.

I'd think power sockets are a must, even in Standard surely?

 

[ainsworth74]

Reconfiguring an SV, is what I always expected them to do, the only other option is can see would've been altering a PO into some kind of composite.

Yes that was my other thought (I never really entertained that they'd have a full size first class carriage!).

I'd think power sockets are a must, even in Standard surely?

All other Mk4 vehicles already have power sockets it's just the SVs that don't.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes that was my other thought (I never really entertained that they'd have a full size first class carriage!).

I didn't think that either, though I wonder if 19 seats will be sufficient.

All other Mk4 vehicles already have power sockets it's just the SVs that don't

I wasn't aware of that. For some reason I thought they didn't, but of course they do.

 

[ainsworth74]

I didn't think that either, though I wonder if 19 seats will be sufficient.

I think that's about the same as now on the WAG ex (TfW Business Class service)? Maybe even a seat or two more?

 

[hexagon789]

I think that's about the same as now on the WAG ex? Maybe even a seat or two more?

I had to look it up.

The usual RFM (Restaurant First Modular) is 10249 which seats 18 First. Spare 10259 seats 23 First, and has a toilet and wheelchair space.

So 19 would be an increase of 1 on the norm, probably sufficient then.

 

[ainsworth74]

I had to look it up.

The usual RFM is 10249 which seats 18 First. Spare 10259 seats 23 First, and has a toilet and wheelchair space.

So 19 would be an increase of 1 on the norm, probably sufficient then.

Aha thanks!

Plus with more services offering the full first class experience perhaps that will help to also spread a bit of the demand. Though equally it could drive additional demand!! It'll be interesting to see how this develops to be honest.

 

[hexagon789]

Aha thanks!

Plus with more services offering the full first class experience perhaps that will help to also spread a bit of the demand. Though equally it could drive additional demand!! It'll be interesting to see how this develops to be honest.

I was pleasantly surprised when I first heard they were going to offer First on all the workings. I assumed they would be mirroring the present set-up.

I agree, it will be interesting to see how it goes and indeed, if the upgrade fee will be the same on all services or not, now that there will be 3 across the day rather than an out-and-back peak service.

 

[Class455]

Also wonder if they'll fit power sockets?

They already have power sockets onboard but only for the window seat

 

[ainsworth74]

They already have power sockets onboard but only for the window seat

A Mk4 SV (buffet vehicle) does not have sockets.

 

[Class455]

A Mk4 SV (buffet vehicle) does not have sockets.

Interesting as I thought that they'd have them throughout. I thought they would have them in the standard class seating at least, but I've only ever sat in coaches B or C whenever I've travelled on one

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Too much power draw apparently. The MK3 buffets don't have them either.

When a MK4 is Thunderbird hauled, only limited catering can be provided as otherwise the Electrical Train Heating (ETH) power draw from the buffet would be too much for the Class 67 locomotive

 

[leedstraindude]

Too much power draw apparently. The MK3 buffets don't have them either.

When a MK4 is TB hauled the SV can only provide limited catering as the ETH power draw is too much for the 67

LNER MK3 buffets have plug sockets.

 

[Phil from Mon]

I think that's about the same as now on the WAG ex? Maybe even a seat or two more?

I’ve been coming back up from Cardiff on the WAG quite a bit recently and it has always been pretty full in first - staff even said they have had to turn people away. Can’t see there would be much of a capacity issue morning or lunchtime, but evening might struggle unless they remove the ability to upgrade on the train.

 

[ainsworth74]

I’ve been coming back up from Cardiff on the WAG quite a bit recently and it has always been pretty full in first - staff even said they have had to turn people away. Can’t see there would be much of a capacity issue morning or lunchtime, but evening might struggle unless they remove the ability to upgrade on the train.

Interesting! I wonder if some recent publicity and knowledge of the very reasonable price has started to have an effect? I know that Geoff Marshall did a video not so long ago, I think it was in Modern Railways at some point recently as well and I think I've seen it appear on Twitter from time to time. Plus there's always word of mouth (I did my bit when buying an upgrade from Darlington ticket office and after explain what it was the ticket clerk said they go to Cardiff regularly so would check it out )!

 

[Phil from Mon]

Interesting! I wonder if some recent publicity and knowledge of the very reasonable price has started to have an effect? I know that Geoff Marshall did a video not so long ago, I think it was in Modern Railways at some point recently as well and I think I've seen it appear on Twitter from time to time. Plus there's always word of mouth (I did my bit when buying an upgrade from Darlington ticket office and after explain what it was the ticket clerk said they go to Cardiff regularly so would check it out )!

With a bit of afterthought my comment about banning on-train upgrades would solve nothing as it would just lead to empty seats! It’s just that at the moment it does feel like a bit of a lottery sometimes as to whether you will get a seat or not. And of course, when you can upgrade on-train for £16.50 (with railcard) for Bangor - Cardiff and vice versa and get a full 3-course meal thrown in it is a bit of a no-brainer.

 

[craigybagel]

To be fair the evening WAG has been busy for a long time. I was hoping they'd be able to squeeze a few more 1st Class seats in then they can get into the MKIIIs but without a major redesign of the buffet car that's never going to happen.

 

[hexagon789]

To be fair the evening WAG has been busy for a long time. I was hoping they'd be able to squeeze a few more 1st Class seats in then they can get into the MKIIIs but without a major redesign of the buffet car that's never going to happen.

The Mk4 SVs originally seated 20 First, so there's likely not much that could be done to them either to increase First Class provision. The only way I can see it being done would be by converting a PO to a Composite and keeping the SV as Standard, but then the kitchen wouldn't be next to First Class, which could cause more issues.

 

[craigybagel]

The Mk4 SVs originally seated 20 First, so there's likely not much that could be done to them either to increase First Class provision. The only way I can see it being done would be by converting a PO to a Composite and keeping the SV as Standard, but then the kitchen wouldn't be next to First Class, which could cause more issues.

Especially as the service is usually standing room only as far as Cwmbran in standard class.

No, I think the best thing would be too do it the same as it is now with the MKIIIs, with a view to adding a 5th composite car in the future if passenger loads increase.

It'll be interesting to see how popular the 1st class in the CAF sets are as well - running on the same route but presumably without the food.

 

[ainsworth74]

Please see this thread for further discussion of the new CAF Civitys for TfW as this is the Mk4s for TfW thread.

Thanks!