Examples of crew “looking down” on other crew

[ExRes]

I do find this a worry, having this sort of thing revealed in the 21st Century working environment, I thought these things went out with the ark. Perhaps you should try sitting at the wrong table in a supermarket rest room, a school, a hospital or a university - or practically any office - it just would not be tolerated. People have to work this this environment ? Jeez..... Toxic...

Rather amusing that you would mention a hospital, I know a number of NHS staff, mainly nurses but not just that grade, working in different facilities who all talk about the vicious, back stabbing, nasty environment that can operate within the NHS, but do all NHS facilities behave in that fashion? of course not and not on the railway either

 

[12LDA28C]

I think that’s a bit of a generalisation, and of course the physiological reality is that people tend to need less sleep as they get older. I wouldn’t particularly want to feel I had to do more extreme early/lates just based on my age. The fairest system is one link which is effectively what we have, and obviously people are free to arrange swaps etc. to suit.

Literally every driver I've ever spoken to says that the shift patterns get harder to deal with as you get older, if that's not your experience then I would say you are in the minority. Conversely, I haven't heard of any junior drivers moaning that they have to do more extreme shifts based on their lower position in the seniority list. They're just glad to have a job, particularly those who have joined the railway from other industries and have gone through a rigorous selection and interview process to get a driver's position.

As regards having one link, that is not a realistic proposition for any drivers' depot that employs a sizeable number of drivers that work various traction types over a variety of routes, as all drivers within that link would have to sign all routes and traction and be rostered enough work over all those routes to maintain competence. For example, at a depot like Exeter (GWR) I believe new drivers work DMUs on local branch lines and work their way up through link progression to the High Speed work to Penzance and Paddington. I'm not sure how that could be viewed as 'unfair'.

 

[the sniper]

I do find this a worry, having this sort of thing revealed in the 21st Century working environment, I thought these things went out with the ark. Perhaps you should try sitting at the wrong table in a supermarket rest room, a school, a hospital or a university - or practically any office - it just would not be tolerated. People have to work this this environment ? Jeez..... Toxic...

I don't know how care free my life would have to be before I'd worry about where people regularly sit on their break in an place/industry I don't work in.

 

[railman3031]

I know many people would never admit to it that they were guilty but I’m after anecdotes and stories of crew from one TOC or depot being snobby about another.

At my old TOC there was definitely this air of superiority that metro drivers were scruffy and never turned up in uniform, and that the guards never ever came out a middle cab.

There was also animosity towards GTR Southern (not the crews fault I guess) as they would constantly be given priority at junctions even if they were 10 - 20 minutes late!

As a railway member of staff myself I believe that all staff no matter what TOC you work for, what passes you carry, wether you ask for a lift from me with an OTOC pass, every single one of us is a family. And after speaking with family who are ex BR, sadly the mentantality of the "Railway Family" has been lost! I am starting to see that more and more by the "new dog's" and its not right, although that is only my opinion

 

[Runningaround]

This is quite a depressing thread to read as a mere rail user. Friendly banter and friendly rivalry between different areas of the business are healthy. Some of what I've read here is really pretty toxic. There is no reason - historically or otherwise - for anyone to be treated with disrespect at work. To me, it makes the rail industry look dated at best, in its attitudes to basic human decency.

And it feels some hold a similar attitude to passengers as well and you wonder how on earth they got passed their application form and interview.

 

[43066]

Literally every driver I've ever spoken to says that the shift patterns get harder to deal with as you get older, if that's not your experience then I would say you are in the minority. Conversely, I haven't heard of any junior drivers moaning that they have to do more extreme shifts based on their lower position in the seniority list. They're just glad to have a job, particularly those who have joined the railway from other industries and have gone through a rigorous selection and interview process to get a driver's position.

Well, if you don’t mind, I’d rather not be discriminated against on the basis of my age, thanks . I find the shifts heavy going enough, and ours aren’t as extreme as some. One link is the fairest way of doing it, that way everyone does their fair share of the rubbish. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

As for the “be glad you have a job”, only up to a point. People have earned their place to be there, it hasn’t been handed to them on a plate and there shouldn’t be any problem with acknowledging the (very big) downsides of the job.

 

[Edsmith]

I do find this a worry, having this sort of thing revealed in the 21st Century working environment, I thought these things went out with the ark. Perhaps you should try sitting at the wrong table in a supermarket rest room, a school, a hospital or a university - or practically any office - it just would not be tolerated. People have to work this this environment ? Jeez..... Toxic...

Really? I know of workplaces where such practices do exist, it's not just confined to the railway industry. There are sometimes good reasons for it though, limited seating in mess rooms etc.

 

[Runningaround]

Rather amusing that you would mention a hospital, I know a number of NHS staff, mainly nurses but not just that grade, working in different facilities who all talk about the vicious, back stabbing, nasty environment that can operate within the NHS, but do all NHS facilities behave in that fashion? of course not and not on the railway either

There is a very good reason why NHS facilities have separate break rooms and that's infection control, you don't want clinical staff in uniform sitting with staff who work in reception among day patients or staff emptying the bins or who spend a lot of time outside, even with them removing their PPE it's still preferred they mix as little as possible.

And there is a culture within certain managers in departments of the NHS that deters staff that care about their job and work hard to improve the job and that is to protect themselves. If the facilities management at my hospital were employed in the hotel industry (many have a background in it) they'd be out the door due to their incompetence at managing a budget efficiently and the way they treat staff below them, those that are workshy are kept on as they are of little threat, those who are hardworking leave usually due to tremendous frustration and rubbish pay. You are left with a workforce that is shockingly incompetent.

 

[ComUtoR]

As regards having one link, that is not a realistic proposition for any drivers' depot that employs a sizeable number of drivers that work various traction types over a variety of routes, as all drivers within that link would have to sign all routes and traction and be rostered enough work over all those routes to maintain competence.

My depot has multiple routes and traction. 70+ drivers. One main link.

 

[bramling]

Really? I know of workplaces where such practices do exist, it's not just confined to the railway industry. There are sometimes good reasons for it though, limited seating in mess rooms etc.

One of the problems with the rail industry is it’s quite difficult to get rid of problem people.

In the case of drivers, whilst there’s the saying “hardest job to get, easiest job to lose” this only really applies if someone makes an operational screw-up or gets busted on D&A. Otherwise, companies don’t like getting rid of people because it will take 18 months to recruit and train up a replacement, along with all the associated costs. So there is a reluctance to upset the apple cart in respect of what might be seen as relatively trivial issues. The problem with this is that these trivial issues add up and fester over time, leading to a rather toxic atmosphere in places. That isn’t the full story though, as things are worse in some places than others, which can probably be put down to good and bad management.

 

[Runningaround]

Is it still that ''off the street'' staff by-passing the entry grade jobs are seen as outsiders but those without a long line of relatives aren't seen as part of the railway family either.

 

[Tomnick]

My depot has multiple routes and traction. 70+ drivers. One main link.

170+ drivers at ours. Two routes well over 100 miles, three others well over 50 miles, all with an hourly service and all bar one shared with other depots. If you put everyone in one link, you'd struggle to get over each route frequently enough to maintain competency.

 

[the sniper]

My depot has multiple routes and traction. 70+ drivers. One main link.

I know a depot where there's 70+ drivers in one link, with multiple routes and traction. But the majority of that depot's complement aren't in it, they're in the higher links that sign further additional routes, TMD/sidings and traction...

 

[greyman42]

Literally every driver I've ever spoken to says that the shift patterns get harder to deal with as you get older, if that's not your experience then I would say you are in the minority.

I would say that shifts are harder to deal with as you get older regardless of which industry you work in.

 

[theageofthetra]

I regularly visit friends in Scotland and it still shocks me how much the Catholic/Protestant issues still permeate everyday life. Is this still an issue in say the Glasgow depots, messroom politics, or how does it affect things at say NIR?

On a recent party rail tour run out of Belfast I met quite a few Transkink ink staff, and to an outsider it came a cross as very much a friendly place to work with a 'railway family' feel.

I'd hope that in 2022 it's not an issue but just curious.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I think staff looking down on each other is prominent in every sector no matter the career.

It’s the same in aviation as I once caught another cabin crew from a French airline look me up and down (in a horrible, snarky way).

Crew from the same airlines acknowledge each other, but different airlines don’t bother.

 

[scotraildriver]

I regularly visit friends in Scotland and it still shocks me how much the Catholic/Protestant issues still permeate everyday life. Is this still an issue in say the Glasgow depots, messroom politics, or how does it affect things at say NIR?

On a recent party rail tour run out of Belfast I met quite a few Transkink ink staff, and to an outsider it came a cross as very much a friendly place to work with a 'railway family' feel.

I'd hope that in 2022 it's not an issue but just curious.

There is still Rangers/Celtic "banter" but people are much more careful about what they say these days. Certainly no downright sectarianism.

 

[AVK17]

I regularly visit friends in Scotland and it still shocks me how much the Catholic/Protestant issues still permeate everyday life. Is this still an issue in say the Glasgow depots, messroom politics, or how does it affect things at say NIR?

Generally in Scottish society it’s a west coast thing, you won’t find much if any of it in the east and north.

It’s a lot better now than it used to be but I have witnessed football ‘banter’ tip into proper sectarianism a few times in Network Rail, even quite recently. In Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire the departments are still quite divided between mainly protestants (S&T) and mainly catholics (p-way).

 

[James185]

Is it still that ''off the street'' staff by-passing the entry grade jobs are seen as outsiders but those without a long line of relatives aren't seen as part of the railway family either.

As a new Conductor (just over a year) it amazes me just how many of my colleagues had family or friends on the railway prior to starting. I can't say I feel I'm treated any differently for not having relatives in the company though.

 

[Falcon1200]

I regularly visit friends in Scotland and it still shocks me how much the Catholic/Protestant issues still permeate everyday life.

It’s a lot better now than it used to be

Before I moved (working for BR) to Scotland in 1984 I was aware of the Rangers/Celtic issue, but had no idea how deeply the sectarian divide ran. New starts in my office were very quickly asked what school they had attended, although as I was educated in England it was somewhat irrelevant in my case! But pretty much everyone was on one side of the fence or the other, there were very few neutrals. I would agree that things are much better now, and while there is still banter it is almost always light-hearted and no offence is meant or taken. But we do suffer from the absurd education system up here, where from the age of 5 children attend separate schools, both primary and secondary, depending on their parents' religious affiliation.

Note regarding schools; In the West of Scotland at least a school with a religious name, eg St Lukes, is invariably a Catholic establishment. I attended St Nicholas Primary School in Oxford, which is however Church of England, causing some confusion.....

 

[Dai Corner]

Before I moved (working for BR) to Scotland in 1984 I was aware of the Rangers/Celtic issue, but had no idea how deeply the sectarian divide ran. New starts in my office were very quickly asked what school they had attended, although as I was educated in England it was somewhat irrelevant in my case! But pretty much everyone was on one side of the fence or the other, there were very few neutrals. I would agree that things are much better now, and while there is still banter it is almost always light-hearted and no offence is meant or taken. But we do suffer from the absurd education system up here, where from the age of 5 children attend separate schools, both primary and secondary, depending on their parents' religious affiliation.

Note regarding schools; In the West of Scotland at least a school with a religious name, eg St Lukes, is invariably a Catholic establishment. I attended St Nicholas Primary School in Oxford, which is however Church of England, causing some confusion.....

England and Wales have separate schools for Catholics and non-Catholics too, but very few people outside the Catholic community care, or even ask, which you went to. As a non-Catholic I applied for and got a job in a Catholic school and it wasn't even mentioned in the interview. Senior posts were reserved for practising Catholics though.

 

[12LDA28C]

Well, if you don’t mind, I’d rather not be discriminated against on the basis of my age, thanks . I find the shifts heavy going enough, and ours aren’t as extreme as some. One link is the fairest way of doing it, that way everyone does their fair share of the rubbish. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

As for the “be glad you have a job”, only up to a point. People have earned their place to be there, it hasn’t been handed to them on a plate and there shouldn’t be any problem with acknowledging the (very big) downsides of the job.

You're not 'discriminated against on the basis of your age' at all, it's a case of allocating work to those who have different tolerances and capabilities as regards shiftwork.

And I'll say again, it's often not possible to have every driver in one link at larger depots as the variety of routes and traction signed would make retaining competence difficult. I'm sure whoever you work for has drivers' depots with more than one link for exactly that reason.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I have noticed mainline drivers at one TOC that I use really look down on passengers whilst those at another TOC are very friendly towards them

 

[12LDA28C]

I have noticed mainline drivers at one TOC that I use really look down on passengers whilst those at another TOC are very friendly towards them

I think that's rather outside the scope of this thread and may be worthy of its own debate

 

[GodAtum]

Don't intercity drivers always look down on suburban drivers?

Or if you drive a nice new train like the class 700 you look down on someone driving a pacer?

 

[Edsmith]

I have noticed mainline drivers at one TOC that I use really look down on passengers whilst those at another TOC are very friendly towards them

Drivers don't generally have much interaction with passengers.

You're not 'discriminated against on the basis of your age' at all, it's a case of allocating work to those who have different tolerances and capabilities as regards shiftwork.

And I'll say again, it's often not possible to have every driver in one link at larger depots as the variety of routes and traction signed would make retaining competence difficult. I'm sure whoever you work for has drivers' depots with more than one link for exactly that reason.

Many bus garages are like that, it's not really practical for every driver to do every route and there will be certain routes that only long serving drivers normally do.

 

[route101]

Generally in Scottish society it’s a west coast thing, you won’t find much if any of it in the east and north.

It’s a lot better now than it used to be but I have witnessed football ‘banter’ tip into proper sectarianism a few times in Network Rail, even quite recently. In Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire the departments are still quite divided between mainly protestants (S&T) and mainly catholics (p-way).

There is also a bit of a Edinburgh/Glasgow thing too. With football its better not to sit on the fence!

 

[43066]

You're not 'discriminated against on the basis of your age' at all, it's a case of allocating work to those who have different tolerances and capabilities as regards shiftwork.

But you’re assuming the tolerances and capabilities to deal with shifts vary with age, which is a rather lazy generalisation. A cushy link just for more experienced drivers does indirectly discriminate on the basis of age, yes. This kind of thing is generally being moved away from by employers these days due to potential Equality Act issues.

Different links for different routes makes sense at some locations, of course, but that can generally be achieved without making some links far worse than others.

As I’ve already pointed out, it isn’t an issue at my depot where it’s essentially one link (strictly speaking two, one legacy Sundays outside link, one with Sundays inside, but the work for each is equivalent).

I have noticed mainline drivers at one TOC that I use really look down on passengers whilst those at another TOC are very friendly towards them

How could you possibly know that unless you go and speak to the drivers? As a train driver it is weeks since I last spoke to a passenger. It isn’t about “looking down” on anyone, it’s just not really part of the job.

 

[Need2]

Or if you drive a nice new train like the class 700 you look down on someone driving a pacer?

I don’t and don’t know anyone else that does.
I have however, seen drivers (only a few I might add) from another toc who treat passengers like a hinderance!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How could you possibly know that unless you go and speak to the drivers? As a train driver it is weeks since I last spoke to a passenger. It isn’t about “looking down” on anyone, it’s just not really part of the job.

How could I possibly know !? That's a bit condescending

I know after many years of taking notice of behaviours, demeanours and first-hand exchanges....

In case you didn't know, I have been travelling on and photographing the railway for over 40 years and interacted with most grades of staff, including drivers with, and without a camera on my person. Many drivers walk past me with an air of superiority and don't bat an eyelid whilst others are very engaging...

I am not a complete moron thank you very much ....