Extra carriages for high demand?

[andykn]

At the same time, they need to do everything possible to keep costs under control - there's no point having a railway that is moving empty carriages most of the time.

Which is why I'm surprised that inflexibility in train length has been designed into the system.

 

[NSEFAN]

Which is why I'm surprised that inflexibility in train length has been designed into the system.

A railway vehicle is still considered to be a cost when it's sitting around in sidings not being used. This is probably why we have moved towards fixed formations and maximisation of rolling stock usage. Long gone are the days of relief trains.

 

[jopsuk]

the cost of running around longer trains is offset against the cost of stabling and the costs involved in shunting & reforming all day long

 

[AM9]

the cost of running around longer trains is offset against the cost of stabling and the costs involved in shunting & reforming all day long

Which includes the operational implications of shuffling part trains around.

 

[Mark62]

If this is such an important match with many fans travelling by rail, why didn't the club charter a special train? In years gone by, football specials were commonplace. When Sheffield Wednesday played Brighton in the FACUP semi at Highbury way back in 83, there were well over 20 specials running from Sheffield to Finsbury Park down the ECML via Retford and Nottingham/ Grantham. Fans just queued up for trains and when one train left, another came straight in. Simple and effective. We took over 25000 fans to London that day. When Derby were at Wembley last year they took over 30000 fans and EMT put on an HST rather than a DMU I believe. A sign of the times as most fans had no choice but to go by road.

 

[455driver]

In 1983 there were rakes of coaches sat in sidings and freight locos sat in the depots at weekends, sadly that isn't the case now and don't get me started on 'spare' crews with the required route and traction knowledge.

The railways are a much different environment today than they were 30 years ago!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The comment was prompted by an incident in East Anglia. A primary school decided to take 50 children on a walk to the next village, and then catch the train back. Unfortunately the train was a 153, already 70% full, and they gave no advance notice.

From experience, though, even if you do arrange in advance there is usually no extra capacity provided.

In this case, though, 50 would be a perfect number for a hired coach. If I was shifting that many, that'd be the option I'd take - my main experience with group travel is groups of around 15 or thereabouts, where because the driver is a significant part of the cost coach hire is often a very expensive choice per head.

 

[andykn]

If this is such an important match with many fans travelling by rail, why didn't the club charter a special train? In years gone by, football specials were commonplace. When Sheffield Wednesday played Brighton in the FACUP semi at Highbury way back in 83, there were well over 20 specials running from Sheffield to Finsbury Park down the ECML via Retford and Nottingham/ Grantham. Fans just queued up for trains and when one train left, another came straight in. Simple and effective. We took over 25000 fans to London that day. When Derby were at Wembley last year they took over 30000 fans and EMT put on an HST rather than a DMU I believe. A sign of the times as most fans had no choice but to go by road.

They did a few years ago. It went from Southend to Cardiff via Birmingham and on the return journey threatened to terminate at Birmingham after the last trains to London had left that evening IIRC.

Most fans would be reluctant to repeat the experience and, being a bank holiday weekend, might like, like me, the flexibility of returning when it suits us.

And the number of extra fans travelling by train enough to make it full and standing for most of the journey won't necessarily fill a charter train even without the previous disastrous experience.

 

[MCR247]

Which is fair enough.

But, to an outsider, it seems a bit strange to have a system with inflexibility designed in when you should be able to predict demand from advance booking rates.

It probably seems strange at first, but when you think about it, it really isn't.

If virgin need 11 car trains on a day to day basis, why is the govt going to fork out to buy an extra 30 odd coaches to sit in sidings except when this 'extra demand' appears. If they did, cue newspaper headlines 'railways wasting money as brand new trains bought that aren't needed except for odd occasions'.

 

[yorksrob]

Although to be fair, in the past, practice has been to keep a rake or two of older stock for additional demand and excursions. Might be tricky on a line with Pendolino speeds though!

 

[andykn]

It probably seems strange at first, but when you think about it, it really isn't.

If virgin need 11 car trains on a day to day basis, why is the govt going to fork out to buy an extra 30 odd coaches to sit in sidings except when this 'extra demand' appears. If they did, cue newspaper headlines 'railways wasting money as brand new trains bought that aren't needed except for odd occasions'.

Not sure you'd need 30 odd coaches, a couple would do but it looks like flexibility has been deliberately designed out of the system.

 

[MCR247]

Not sure you'd need 30 odd coaches, a couple would do but it looks like flexibility has been deliberately designed out of the system.

Ok maybe not. But flexibility costs money. Do you not believe that if the government had spent money on extra carriages that had no definite purpose the media would be in uproar?

 

[najaB]

Ok maybe not. But flexibility costs money. Do you not believe that if the government had spent money on extra carriages that had no definite purpose the media would be in uproar?

Especially since there's every likelihood that the extra carriages would be in the wrong place at the wrong time: "Carriages sit empty in the north while southern commuters get left behind at stations." (Feel free to swap 'north' and 'south' for your chosen geographic designators - e.g. Scotland and England, etc.)

 

[MCR247]

Especially since there's every likelihood that the extra carriages would be in the wrong place at the wrong time: "Carriages sit empty in the north while southern commuters get left behind at stations." (Feel free to swap 'north' and 'south' for your chosen geographic designators - e.g. Scotland and England, etc.)

Its also possible that someone could tweet a picture of the 'extra' carriage with only 2 people in it (on an inbound working for the busy train) which could be used to show how money is wasted on maintaining extra carriages which are never busy and so are never needed.

Whilst it may seem like we are just being awkward for the sake of it andykn the point is that whilst on the surface it looks like being flexible is the obvious option with no downsides, sadly the reality is different and when costs need to be kept to a minimum, flexibility isn't always affordable

 

[andykn]

Ok maybe not. But flexibility costs money. Do you not believe that if the government had spent money on extra carriages that had no definite purpose the media would be in uproar?

No. Spares for breakdowns and spikes in demand is a reasonable thing to do.

What happens now if one carriage in a train has a fault?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Especially since there's every likelihood that the extra carriages would be in the wrong place at the wrong time: "Carriages sit empty in the north while southern commuters get left behind at stations." (Feel free to swap 'north' and 'south' for your chosen geographic designators - e.g. Scotland and England, etc.)

On this particular occasion the demand should have been obvious to Virgin from the ticket buying pattern.

Or is it usual for all reservable seats to be sold out in advance and trains to be full and standing for hours?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its also possible that someone could tweet a picture of the 'extra' carriage with only 2 people in it (on an inbound working for the busy train) which could be used to show how money is wasted on maintaining extra carriages which are never busy and so are never needed.

Whilst it may seem like we are just being awkward for the sake of it andykn the point is that whilst on the surface it looks like being flexible is the obvious option with no downsides, sadly the reality is different and when costs need to be kept to a minimum, flexibility isn't always affordable

I don't think passengers usually distribute themselves away from carriages that are "extra", if there's only two passengers per carriage on a train with one extra carriage I'll leave you to do the maths on how many passengers per carriage there would be with one fewer carriage.

Did anyone tweet any pictures of the near empty East Coast trains coming south on the Bank Holiday Sunday? We practically had carriage B to ourselves from Manchester to London.

Edit: And tweets of people who've paid 90 quid to stand for hours are far more likely.

 

[causton]

Or is it usual for all reservable seats to be sold out in advance and trains to be full and standing for hours?

On some Virgin routes, yes! I have stood before all the way Watford - Birmingham and Chester - Milton Keynes (was even worse when the Milton Keynes - London passengers got on, even though the train manager told people to get off at Crewe for quieter trains!) These were in the middle of the day too, not "peak" time...

 

[andykn]

On some Virgin routes, yes! I have stood before all the way Watford - Birmingham and Chester - Milton Keynes (was even worse when the Milton Keynes - London passengers got on, even though the train manager told people to get off at Crewe for quieter trains!) These were in the middle of the day too, not "peak" time...

Were they 9 or 11 car trains?

 

[6Gman]

No. Spares for breakdowns and spikes in demand is a reasonable thing to do.

What happens now if one carriage in a train has a fault?

Depends on the nature of the fault. If the carriage cannot be used by passengers, but is fit to run, then it will be locked out of use if possible and the train will continue with that number of seats fewer.

If the fault makes the carriage unfit to run then the whole train will have to be taken out of service. Unless there's a spare available (which will sometimes, but only sometimes, be the case) then the service will be cancelled.

The days of being able to shunt a faulty coach out of a set have gone in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Mark62]

TOCS primary concern is to make money for their shareholders. Passengers comfort is secondary to this. Therefore to squeeze as many people as possible onto the fewest number of coaches is seen as the best way to maximise profits. It's incidental of course that most of the handouts to shareholders come from taxpayers. The payout to Northern rail shareholders for last year was £27 million. All of which came from the taxpayer.
The usual business model for old mean that no profit means no payout. Privatisation changed all that.
So we have cattle trains running with two coaches. This gives a bigger profit. Companies like NR have the first obligation to the shareholders. No incentive whatsoever so put on extra stock. That reduces profit. There is extra stock but under the current funding model passengers needs are irrelevant. In many ways they are an irritant to TOCS. It's called a license to print money.
No way that any TOC will put extra stock on unless they are forced to. That's why we have four couch trains running from Glasgow to Plymouth.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Its worth mentioning here that during the summer months in Belgium, the SNCB (Belgium state railways) run extra trains to coastal resorts if the weather forecast looks good. Not joking One can only assume that the SNCB are not under too much financial pressure from the Belgium Government.

 

[455driver]

There is extra stock but under the current funding model passengers needs are irrelevant. In many ways they are an irritant to TOCS. It's called a license to print money.

Where and what is this extra stock?
Oh and it has to be stock which is on the TOCs safety case, compatible with the stock they are already running and require minimal staff training otherwise it isn't viable!

No way that any TOC will put extra stock on unless they are forced to. That's why we have four couch trains running from Glasgow to Plymouth.

No, that's because of the Government of the time (through the SRA I think) deciding that Virgin Cross Country could have 4 and 5 coach trains rather than the 5 and 6 coach trains they wanted because it was too expensive!

 

[bb21]

Where and what is this extra stock?
Oh and it has to be stock which is on the TOCs safety case, compatible with the stock they are already running and require minimal staff training otherwise it isn't viable!


No, that's because of the Government of the time (through the SRA I think) deciding that Virgin Cross Country could have 4 and 5 coach trains rather than the 5 and 6 coach trains they wanted because it was too expensive!

Sometimes having an irrelevant moan is easier than looking at things objectively don't ya know?

 

[Class 170101]

Where and what is this extra stock?
Oh and it has to be stock which is on the TOCs safety case, compatible with the stock they are already running and require minimal staff training otherwise it isn't viable!

You won't convince me that most TOCs don't have 'spare' stock outside the peak periods to run extra services for special events. Train crew availability however is an entirely different matter.

 

[bramling]

Where and what is this extra stock?
Oh and it has to be stock which is on the TOCs safety case, compatible with the stock they are already running and require minimal staff training otherwise it isn't viable!


No, that's because of the Government of the time (through the SRA I think) deciding that Virgin Cross Country could have 4 and 5 coach trains rather than the 5 and 6 coach trains they wanted because it was too expensive!

For many of the London commuter TOCs there is plenty of stock which sits idle during the day, evenings, or at weekends. I know there's activities like cleaning, CET discharge etc that need to happen, but many of the locations where units berth do only light maintenance at best. It is frustrating to be stuck on a crowded 4-car train during the day only to pass sidings full of stabled trains. I realise that outside the London area, with a few exceptions, the situation is one of much more intensive utilisation.

However, in a few years time, if we believe what we are being told, Pacers will be being withdrawn, and there may be a surplus of 1980s AC EMUs. Notwithstanding platform length issues, "all stock is being used" won't be so acceptable then if we witness large numbers of units being scrapped or sitting off-lease. Knowing how the railway has worked since 1994, I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happens though!

 

[jopsuk]

By "crowded" do you mean people standing or just that most seats are taken? A train with 90-95% seat occupation will feel "crowded", but it's hard to argue there's a need for a longer train then.

 

[andykn]

By "crowded" do you mean people standing or just that most seats are taken? A train with 90-95% seat occupation will feel "crowded", but it's hard to argue there's a need for a longer train then.

The instance I was talking about had the train full and standing for the three odd hours from London to Preston. And of course it's the full fare paying passengers with no advance reservations who end up standing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Congrats to Greater Anglia:

"...All trains departing between 08.50 and 14.50 will operate with 12 carriages..."

http://www.abelliogreateranglia.co....southend-united-v-wycombe-league-two-play-off

 

[plastictaffy]

You won't convince me that most TOCs don't have 'spare' stock outside the peak periods to run extra services for special events. Train crew availability however is an entirely different matter.

That's right, always blame the crews. I know for a fact that my TOC requires very high fleet availability from their units, with very careful planning required for units that need maintenance and the like. The units are currently being fitted with GSM-R as they go through the main depot - this also requires careful planning. Let's say you each four car unit is worth a million quid a carriage, so a four car is worth 4 million notes, and you've got 12 of them sat around doing nothing. That's fifty million quid's worth of assets doing nothing, all depreciating in value and earning nothing while they're sat in your carriage sidings. For that reason, TOC's have very little spare stock available outside of the peak times!!

Some weeks ago, one of the units booked for the Bedford line failed, and the local on-call fitter could not make it better. Due to the availability required from the units, a service up in Birmingham had to be short-formed so they could pinch the unit for the Marston Vale line.

 

[Class 170101]

That's right, always blame the crews. I know for a fact that my TOC requires very high fleet availability from their units, with very careful planning required for units that need maintenance and the like. The units are currently being fitted with GSM-R as they go through the main depot - this also requires careful planning. Let's say you each four car unit is worth a million quid a carriage, so a four car is worth 4 million notes, and you've got 12 of them sat around doing nothing. That's fifty million quid's worth of assets doing nothing, all depreciating in value and earning nothing while they're sat in your carriage sidings. For that reason, TOC's have very little spare stock available outside of the peak times!!

Some weeks ago, one of the units booked for the Bedford line failed, and the local on-call fitter could not make it better. Due to the availability required from the units, a service up in Birmingham had to be short-formed so they could pinch the unit for the Marston Vale line.

Unfortunately you have entirely missed my point and I wasn't making a political one either. You will see in the link below in this example extra carriages are being provided but only a few extra trains are being provided.
http://www.abelliogreateranglia.co.uk/f/61539/61539.pdf

 

[andykn]

So on Bank Holiday Monday they only run 5 coaches from Weymouth to London for one of the busiest late afternoon/early evening trains; even on a normal Sunday those services are full by London.

And they only let you know it's only 5 carriages and full and standing after the previous service has left Basingstoke so I don't have the option of a seat and a change using the earlier less crowded service from Salisbury.

 

[The Planner]

One of the joys of leasing with mileage based contracts.....