First Group: General Discussion

[Schnellzug]

Almost certainly, the first thing that Stagecoach would do wherever it took over would be to standardise the fleet.

Do the stupid Office of Fart Trading crowd want the Public to have a reasonable bus service? They certainly have a funny way of going about it with their adherence to outdated dogma that's even stronger than the pre-Second Vatican Council Roman Catholic church.

 

[MK Tom]

Stagecoach's fleet is majority Cummins engined rather than Volvo, which is second. Scania barely features.

I've heard elsewhere that the OfT have said that if Stagecoach bid for Northampton it will be shipped off to the CC, so I can't seeit being sold as a going concern.
I think it likely that all the routes will be cancelled, with the depot sold to Stagecoach who will then register their own version of the routes.

I would agree with this but the appearance of Uno on the Northampton scene with no warning and when they've never really left Herts before has got me wondering.

I think a Stagecoach monopoly in Northampton would be a bad thing for the town [city in my book]. SC are excellent at looking after their vehicles compared to most operators and their timekeeping is pretty good too but their fares are disgraceful and if they get a complete monopoly their fares will go up even faster. Already a comparison with First's Northampton fares, Arriva's Milton Keynes fares and many others shows it to be one of the most extortionate fare setups in the region.

 

[starrymarkb]

I would agree with this but the appearance of Uno on the Northampton scene with no warning and when they've never really left Herts before has got me wondering.

I think a Stagecoach monopoly in Northampton would be a bad thing for the town [city in my book]. SC are excellent at looking after their vehicles compared to most operators and their timekeeping is pretty good too but their fares are disgraceful and if they get a complete monopoly their fares will go up even faster. Already a comparison with First's Northampton fares, Arriva's Milton Keynes fares and many others shows it to be one of the most extortionate fare setups in the region.

Could be worse Go-Ahead are notorious for high fares, at least on the South Coast.

 

[Schnellzug]

Could be worse Go-Ahead are notorious for high fares, at least on the South Coast.

Dearie me yes, i think it was about £5.80 return Wareham to corfe castle (about 15 minutes) last time I looked. An 09 reg Scania in branded livery, to be sure, but nevertheless, a bit steep, i thought.

 

[Ivo]

Could be worse Go-Ahead are notorious for high fares, at least on the South Coast.

"South Coast" isn't a fair tag. They certainly aren't expensive in Brighton.

 

[MK Tom]

GoAhead seem fine in Oxford fare wise. Stagecoach Northampton offer:

£7.50 return on service 89 between MK and Northampton and villages in between. Competing effectively with £5.35 on the train with a railcard or £3.50 on Z&S route 33.

£2.15 single in Northampton town area against £2.00 for Arriva in MK and First in Northampton.

£10.90 Dayrider in the Midlands region, necessary if you want to, say, go from MK to Daventry. You can go from MK to Maidenhead return for £5.50 with Arriva.

 

[overthewater]

Talk is Cumbernauld HAS been sold to stagecoach, is there any way to prove this?

 

[Jollycam]

Interestingly, that same Dayrider (Gold) ticket is only £7.90 when bought on Stagecoach Warwickshire (and only £4 on Sundays, though Sunday services in Warwickshire generally end around 6pm). The ticket has the same area of validity as the ticket bought in Northampton.....so it's not just train tickets that have weird fare anomalies.

 

[tbtc]

£7.50 return on service 89 between MK and Northampton and villages in between. Competing effectively with £5.35 on the train with a railcard

So what you are saying is that Stagecoach are cheaper than the train 8.10), unless you have a Young Person's Railcard?

 

[MK Tom]

So what you are saying is that Stagecoach are cheaper than the train 8.10), unless you have a Young Person's Railcard?

Or a network railcard or any other railcard. If you use the service more than 15 or so times in the year it becomes cheaper to buy the card... But I don't think you'll find anyone on here who would argue that the train isn't overpriced there. The main comparison is with similar bus journeys, like the £5.50 return to Aylesbury (or anywhere in Bucks now) that Arriva offer or the £6.00 return to Luton Centrebus offer.

 

[mbonwick]

As far as I can see, you've yet to come up with a like-for-like fare where Stagecoach is more expensive?!

I will point out that they're Britains Best Value Bus Operator according to some passenger body or other...

 

[A0wen]

GoAhead seem fine in Oxford fare wise. Stagecoach Northampton offer:

£7.50 return on service 89 between MK and Northampton and villages in between. Competing effectively with £5.35 on the train with a railcard or £3.50 on Z&S route 33.

£2.15 single in Northampton town area against £2.00 for Arriva in MK and First in Northampton.

£10.90 Dayrider in the Midlands region, necessary if you want to, say, go from MK to Daventry. You can go from MK to Maidenhead return for £5.50 with Arriva.

But as I pointed out before, when you made similar claims, what you don't know is whether or not Stagecoach's fares have always been higher in the Northampton area - even dating back to United Counties days - when compared to other operators.

There are many factors which can affect this - all you're doing is using a current snapshot, yet the differential may always have been there.

And comparing bus fares with a rail fare with a rail-card, that's not a valid comparison, since not everyone has access to a rail-card, whereas everyone has access to the walk-up fares, so at least compare 'like for like'.

 

[MK Tom]

Yeah fair enough (no pun intended) to all of those comments. In the case of MK-Northampton anyone can have access to a Network Railcard, but for one-off journeys obviously that'd make no sense.

I did point out that you can do MK-Northampton for £3.50 on the 33 with Z&S and before them with Arriva it was £5 something I forget what exactly.

Stagecoach are great with vehicles and timekeeping compared to many operators. I can't fault them at all as an operator, but I find their fares unjustifiable and I think they cheat themselves out of custom by setting them so high. It's £2.30 to get a single into CMK from Stony Stratford on the 89 against £2.00 on Arriva's 5. Same if you compare the 1 in Northampton with First's 2 from Rectory Farm.

That's my concern if Stagecoach get the First routes - that there'll be no serious alternative on any route with more reasonable fares (about half the town is within walking distance of one of the six main First routes) and that Stagecoach will just hike their fares further in the absence of competition so you end up with daft fares like you have in Rugby (a town pretty much the size of Aylesbury with fares considerably higher).

 

[mbonwick]

It's just not getting through is it that you cannot compare 2 places just because they're a similar size.

Anyway, moving on from fares.....

No way of confirming if Cumbernauld has gone to Stagecoach until we get an announcement.

 

[robertclark125]

And even if Cumbernauld did go to Stagecoach, no doubt we'd have to wait for the usual OFt inquiry.

 

[MK Tom]

It's just not getting through is it that you cannot compare 2 places just because they're a similar size.

I don't really see why... why should Rugby have higher fares? If anything it's demographically and geographically more bus-reliant than Aylesbury is. I'm sure if Stagecoach dropped their fares in Rugby they'd get a big increase in passenger loadings. I know people there who walk when they would bus to avoid the high fares. I bet if Arriva or First ran Rugby the fares would be lower.

Anyway... Does anyone have any more information on Uno's move into Northampton? Like do we know the reasons behind it? Did the University invite them in and make some kind of arrangement with them about having UoN students working with the company like happens in Herts? That could increase or decrease the likelihood of them taking over First's operation...

 

[A0wen]

Yeah fair enough (no pun intended) to all of those comments. In the case of MK-Northampton anyone can have access to a Network Railcard, but for one-off journeys obviously that'd make no sense.

I did point out that you can do MK-Northampton for £3.50 on the 33 with Z&S and before them with Arriva it was £5 something I forget what exactly.

Stagecoach are great with vehicles and timekeeping compared to many operators. I can't fault them at all as an operator, but I find their fares unjustifiable and I think they cheat themselves out of custom by setting them so high. It's £2.30 to get a single into CMK from Stony Stratford on the 89 against £2.00 on Arriva's 5. Same if you compare the 1 in Northampton with First's 2 from Rectory Farm.

That's my concern if Stagecoach get the First routes - that there'll be no serious alternative on any route with more reasonable fares (about half the town is within walking distance of one of the six main First routes) and that Stagecoach will just hike their fares further in the absence of competition so you end up with daft fares like you have in Rugby (a town pretty much the size of Aylesbury with fares considerably higher).

Quite apart from the fact First have abandoned large swathes of Northampton in the last 3 years meaning there isn't a choice any longer - I'd have said the extra 15p to go into town from Rectory Farm by Stagecoach was more than justified by better frequency and far better buses than the nearly life-expired Scania's which First seems to be busily sending to Northampton at the moment.

And your evidence about Stagecoach's fares policy if First withdraw is what exactly?

Rugby isn't comparable to Aylesbury - not least because you've always had 3 significant operators in Aylesbury - even in NBC days with United Counties running a depot in the town, London Country running a large number of services southward and South Midland running services in the Oxford direction.

Rugby, by comparison, was almost exclusively served by Midland Red and has never had multiple operators.

Arguably, Stagecoach have invested in their operations in the Northampton area, that investment has to be paid for hence fares went up - not unreasonable, surely?

 

[robertclark125]

The public seem to want aircon, wi fi, leather seats, etc etc. stuff that costs hundreds, and then they want it for £10. Sadly, the market doesn't work like that. Indeed, if more competition took place on the buses, I have no doubt that in some areas, high standards of fleet renewal would drop.

In Northampton, which when GRT bought it in 1994, had a fleet of about 60 vehicles, has First ever had much of a desire to run the firm.

 

[MK Tom]

Yeah OK I'm happy to stand corrected on a lot of these points. I still think Stagecoach are cheating themselves out of custom in Northampton and Rugby through their fares policies. Also I would say that Aylesbury has been an Arriva monopoly for the last decade. The only other operators are independents on contract routes - the only competition is the 300/321.

Rugby maybe could be better contrasted with Bedford. The history really shouldn't matter, it should just be a question of finding the fare that hits that balance between being cheap enough that large numbers are happy to pay it and expensive enough to meet the operating costs. I think at the moment SC lose vast numbers of passengers through the fares in Northants and Rugby.

If anyone does have any info on my above question about Uno that'd be appreciated a lot (somewhat more on topic, I apologise for taking things a bit off).

 

[mbonwick]

But history *does* matter, and you can't change that.

Though I have no evidence, I suspect that uno's entry into Northampton may well be linked to the University, and could indeed smooth things for a Stagecoach buyout of First, whatever form that may take.

 

[tbtc]

And even if Cumbernauld did go to Stagecoach, no doubt we'd have to wait for the usual OFt inquiry.

What do Cumbernauld run apart from services to that beautiful town - do they run any/some/all of the Kirkintilloch routes too? Or just the 36 and"express" Cumbernauld - Glasgow ones?

 

[overthewater]

And even if Cumbernauld did go to Stagecoach, no doubt we'd have to wait for the usual OFt inquiry.

What do Cumbernauld run apart from services to that beautiful town - do they run any/some/all of the Kirkintilloch routes too? Or just the 36 and"express" Cumbernauld - Glasgow ones?

I have heard there would be no need for OFT, because, Cumbernauld already has other companies running about,

http://www.travelinescotland.com//pdfs/timetables/PTDO045.pdf running every 7mins to two main part of the town.
http://www.travelinescotland.com//pdfs/timetables/PTAO043.pdf

Then you have Dunn running about the town, plus Henderson, First would still operate to Glasgow thanks to the X37 and X39. As stagecoach has nothing in Kirkintilloch, this is why I believe no oft and cc is needed.

 

[Skimble19]

Lets see if anyone can beat this;

For unlimited travel around the city of Stirling, NOTE this is just Stirling nothing else.,

First Day: £5.80
First Week £23.00

You can see the zone here: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/scotland_east/assets/pdfs/tickets/Scotland_Fare_Zones_Map.pdf

its a pure and utter disgrace.....

Arriva Stevenage is £37.80 for a month (if you order online / on your phone).. Suddenly seems fairly good value

 

[radamfi]

"South Coast" isn't a fair tag. They certainly aren't expensive in Brighton.

He might be talking about the the division of Go-Ahead known as 'Go South Coast', which doesn't include Brighton & Hove:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_South_Coast

W&D, Bluestar and Southern Vectis are pretty expensive.

 

[Schnellzug]

He might be talking about the the division of Go-Ahead known as 'Go South Coast', which doesn't include Brighton & Hove:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_South_Coast

W&D, Bluestar and Southern Vectis are pretty expensive.

yes, the W&D/Bluestar/Southern vectis/Marchwood/Damory/Tourist Coaches conglomerate, which seems to be getting more and more mixed, in fact you'll see Damory Vehicles with W&D, Bluestar or Marchwood legal lettering.

 

[Ivo]

Oops. I forgot their name was actually "South Coast". B&H aren't even the only other Go-Ahead subsidiary on the South Coast anyway; what about the oft-forgotten Plymouth?

I've had another hare-brained idea this morning. Using the value of £2.7M quoted for Barnstaple, if everyone on this forum paid an equal amount for us to buy it we would be looking at only ~£1K each based on active members - or just £180 including every member (even I can afford that! )...

 

[starrymarkb]

Which would be a sure fire way to loose £1K or £180

 

[Ivo]

Which would be a sure fire way to loose £1K or £180

You think I don't know that?

 

[Polarbear]

Heard a couple of drivers chatting this morning on my way to work today (one Arriva & one First). Their banter suggested both Chester & Rock Ferry depot's have been sold & at least one of the (Rock Ferry) may have passed to Stagecoach?

The First driver also mentioned that no official announcement was to be made until after the Olympic Games (for some reason).

As stated previously in this thread, Arriva haven't got any chance of buying these two depot's due to competion issues. Stagecoach already have a presence in Merseyside courtesy of Gillmoss depot.

I'm sure it'll all come out in the wash in due course...

 

[tbtc]

I have heard there would be no need for OFT, because, Cumbernauld already has other companies running about,

http://www.travelinescotland.com//pdfs/timetables/PTDO045.pdf running every 7mins to two main part of the town.
http://www.travelinescotland.com//pdfs/timetables/PTAO043.pdf

Then you have Dunn running about the town, plus Henderson, First would still operate to Glasgow thanks to the X37 and X39. As stagecoach has nothing in Kirkintilloch, this is why I believe no oft and cc is needed.

The question I was asking was whether Cumbernauld depot operated the Kirkentilloch - Glasgow services (or whether Cumbernauld depot only ran services that served Cumbernauld)?

Stagecoach clearly run a share of the Cumbernauld - Glasgow services (including their coaches from Fife).