First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[VolvoDaft]

Just received some more news regarding McGill's taking over First Scotland East. The West Lothian division (Livingston) will be taking on a modern version of the iconic Eastern Scottish Livery, and will be called McGill's Scottish Eastern. Has anyone got any ideas as to what the modern version of the old paint job might look like & included?

 

[GusB]

This thread is for discussing the operations of First Scotland East and its successors, not Lothian Country. Please stay on-topic!

 

[tbtc]

Just received some more news regarding McGill's taking over First Scotland East. The West Lothian division (Livingston) will be taking on a modern version of the iconic Eastern Scottish Livery, and will be called McGill's Scottish Eastern. Has anyone got any ideas as to what the modern version of the old paint job might look like & included?

I’d be interested where you’ve heard this from but it would be a “brave” approach to repaint the fleet green/ cream to resemble their competitor!

Obviously SMT/ Eastern Scottish had the green livery originally, which LC is a “homage” to, nothing is trademarked etc, but painting your buses green to broadly resemble the company you are competing with on most corridors seems a little risky…

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’d be interested where you’ve heard this from but it would be a “brave” approach to repaint the fleet green/ cream to resemble their competitor!

Obviously SMT/ Eastern Scottish had the green livery originally, which LC is a “homage” to, nothing is trademarked etc, but painting your buses green to broadly resemble the company you are competing with on most corridors seems a little risky…

I have to say, I thought it a bit unlikely as it seemed that Lothian Country's livery was indeed harking back to when Eastern Scottish were lords of all they surveyed.

Moreover, if you decide to deliberately adopt the same colours, apart from the confusion, there is the potential for a legal challenge in "passing off"

 

[LiviCrazy]

How do McGill’s fares compare to First? I’ve generally stuck with First rather than LC as their fares are a lot better value, especially day and week tickets.

Looking at McGill’s website it looks like they are a bit more expensive.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I’ll be interested to see the way in which people will respond to this around the areas that will be taken over.

I’m only assuming at this point that the current situation at the depots to be acquired still aren't great with driver amounts.

Perhaps a change of name will help somewhat but again if the general rhetoric is mediocre pay for high levels of stress and responsibility alongside long shifts with no decent pattern to them as you find all to often in this industry I stand by what I said, it won’t make any difference.

How do McGill’s fares compare to First? I’ve generally stuck with First rather than LC as their fares are a lot better value, especially day and week tickets.

Looking at McGill’s website it looks like they are a bit more expensive.

Especially where they have no competition.

 

[PaulMc7]

How do McGill’s fares compare to First? I’ve generally stuck with First rather than LC as their fares are a lot better value, especially day and week tickets.

Looking at McGill’s website it looks like they are a bit more expensive.

I've not used Mcgills regularly for a long time but generally their singles were always significantly expensive for short journeys. When I went to college in Paisley in 2012-13, a single for a journey that was 10 mins in total was already £2.75-3 and it's probably went up a fair bit in the 9-10 years since.

Their all zone all day ticket is quite decent though but even the monthly ticket for their zone 1 is around £14-15 more for 4 weeks than First Glasgow's direct debit is for the full month. £127.05 for their zone 6 ticket for 4 weeks and some of the mileage you can cover in that isn't much more than the likes of Falkirk to Edinburgh and Glasgow to Stirling via Balfron.

 

[overthewater]

If I was McGills, I would be looking very closely at the Livingston depot, and be asking two questions:

A: Is it worth trying to fight on?
B: Or is better to just move Bright bus to smaller complex within Edinburgh and just give West Lothian to Lothian.

If they cut and run, they get to keep the money spinner and also cut out alot of losses. I'm sure the drivers could easily be transferred to other depot or even Lothian Country.

They is no point trying to fill a sink hole if the money could be better spent in Forth Valley area.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

If I was McGills, I would be looking very closely at the Livingston depot, and be asking two questions:

A: Is it worth trying to fight on?
B: Or is better to just move Bright bus to smaller complex within Edinburgh and just give West Lothian to Lothian.

If they cut and run, they get to keep the money spinner and also cut out alot of losses. I'm sure the drivers could easily be transferred to other depot or even Lothian Country.

They is no point trying to fill a sink hole if the money could be better spent in Forth Valley area.

My gut feeling is that Lothian Country have taken more on their side in Livingston than they're losing on their own tour services.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Asking as a non-local, does anyone know what traditionally might be included under each of the ‘Midland Bluebird’ and ‘Eastern Scottish’ businesses when they transfer to McGills? Stirling/Falkirk area routes for the former and Livingston/Edinburgh area routes for the latter?

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Asking as a non-local, does anyone know what traditionally might be included under each of the ‘Midland Bluebird’ and ‘Eastern Scottish’ businesses when they transfer to McGills? Stirling/Falkirk area routes for the former and Livingston/Edinburgh area routes for the latter?

Precisely

 

[Stan Drews]

Just received some more news regarding McGill's taking over First Scotland East. The West Lothian division (Livingston) will be taking on a modern version of the iconic Eastern Scottish Livery, and will be called McGill's Scottish Eastern. Has anyone got any ideas as to what the modern version of the old paint job might look like & included?

The McGill’s announcement, that has been widely shared, stated that McGill’s Midland Bluebird and McGill’s Eastern Scottish would be the operating names, so not sure you’ve got the ‘scoop’ you maybe thought you had. It’s fairly obvious that the First livery won’t be retained, so no surprise that they will create some form of McGill’s livery for both operations, almost certainly with a common theme.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Apologies to ask but, where could you see the new fleet numbers? Cheers!

On the list that McGills have prepared for day 1 of operations. Currently in the possession of McGills exec team but hopefully to come my way when Ralph gets the opportunity.

 

[route101]

I wonder what will happen fleetwise, will they keep the newer stuff?

 

[LiviCrazy]

If I was McGills, I would be looking very closely at the Livingston depot, and be asking two questions:

A: Is it worth trying to fight on?
B: Or is better to just move Bright bus to smaller complex within Edinburgh and just give West Lothian to Lothian.

If they cut and run, they get to keep the money spinner and also cut out alot of losses. I'm sure the drivers could easily be transferred to other depot or even Lothian Country.

They is no point trying to fill a sink hole if the money could be better spent in Forth Valley area.

I think if they can strip down to what they can actually run they may do well in Livingston. Numbers have definitely been back up recently on all the buses I’ve been on/seen. The X22 for example now seems to pick up a lot at Hermiston P&R, which it never used to.

If they quickly rebrand the fleet at the very least they can shed off the bad rep that First had in the area.

As noted above my concern would be higher fares would put people off when there is competition. First have, despite some people’s perceptions, always been fair in their pricing and have (even pre-Lothian) reduced fares when they could, unfortunately locally they’ve always been compared to Lothian’s flat fare system.

Where McGill’s could do some work is trying to claim back some of the casual passengers in the area. First’s singles have in recent years got very high and people who maybe aren’t as familiar with their day ticket offerings are put off immediately. I know it’s to do with the concessionaire scheme but they maybe need to do something like Stagecoach’s day returns (which I’m some cases in the past was cheaper than their singles)

 

[Bus9120UK]

I think if they can strip down to what they can actually run they may do well in Livingston. Numbers have definitely been back up recently on all the buses I’ve been on/seen. The X22 for example now seems to pick up a lot at Hermiston P&R, which it never used to.

I passed an X22 which was completely full in Kirknewton on Saturday.

 

[Graham Alexand]

On the list that McGills have prepared for day 1 of operations. Currently in the possession of McGills exec team but hopefully to come my way when Ralph gets the opportunity.

That's brilliant to hear, thanks for the reply!

I wonder what will happen fleetwise, will they keep the newer stuff?

It would be mostly Streetlites I would say which isn't too bad! Newish vehicles and are pretty good operating around West Lothian and Falkirk.

 

[Mal]

Just wondering if McGills operate an exact fare system?

 

[computerSaysNo]

I wonder what will happen fleetwise, will they keep the newer stuff?

I'm not sure they'll get rid of anything, they're still running 2004 and 2006 plate vehicles in Dundee aren't they?

 

[Graham Alexand]

I'm not sure they'll get rid of anything, they're still running 2004 and 2006 plate vehicles in Dundee aren't they?

B7's I think are 06 plates.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I'm not sure they'll get rid of anything, they're still running 2004 and 2006 plate vehicles in Dundee aren't they?

Yes, there are 6 54-plate and 18 06-plate B7TLs still in service in Dundee

I wonder what will happen fleetwise, will they keep the newer stuff?

Whatever they do, I hope they don't make the same mistake as First by putting Streetlites on the X38 between Edinburgh and Falkirk!

 

[computerSaysNo]

Whatever they do, I hope they don't make the same mistake as First by putting Streetlites on the X38 between Edinburgh and Falkirk!

I'm not convinced that that is an integral fault of the Streetlite design, that it can't manage services like the X38. Why would Wrightbus produce a vehicle which they know can't handle rural routes, bearing in mind much of the UK is rural? (rhetorical question)
Is it a case that the outgoing company maybe didn't do as much preventative maintenance resulting in vehicles breaking down on the road?

 

[stevenedin]

I passed an X22 which was completely full in Kirknewton on Saturday.

Do you mean at the A71 near one of the junctions going to Kirknewton? Only the X28 goes to Kirknewton. I had a similar experience the other week from Livingston towards Whitburn the X22 was full.

I think if they can strip down to what they can actually run they may do well in Livingston. Numbers have definitely been back up recently on all the buses I’ve been on/seen. The X22 for example now seems to pick up a lot at Hermiston P&R, which it never used to.

If they quickly rebrand the fleet at the very least they can shed off the bad rep that First had in the area.

As noted above my concern would be higher fares would put people off when there is competition. First have, despite some people’s perceptions, always been fair in their pricing and have (even pre-Lothian) reduced fares when they could, unfortunately locally they’ve always been compared to Lothian’s flat fare system.

Where McGill’s could do some work is trying to claim back some of the casual passengers in the area. First’s singles have in recent years got very high and people who maybe aren’t as familiar with their day ticket offerings are put off immediately. I know it’s to do with the concessionaire scheme but they maybe need to do something like Stagecoach’s day returns (which I’m some cases in the past was cheaper than their singles)

I agree about fares. I hope that they keep the fares affordable. £55 a month on the app for unlimited travel in West Lothian and Edinburgh is a bargain at the moment. Sadly I doubt that McGill’s will match that although I could be wrong.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Do you mean at the A71 near one of the junctions going to Kirknewton? Only the X28 goes to Kirknewton. I had a similar experience the other week from Livingston towards Whitburn the X22 was full.

Indeed. I'm still not perfect with the area but it will have been around there.

 

[Smithster]

I’d be interested where you’ve heard this from but it would be a “brave” approach to repaint the fleet green/ cream to resemble their competitor!

Obviously SMT/ Eastern Scottish had the green livery originally, which LC is a “homage” to, nothing is trademarked etc, but painting your buses green to broadly resemble the company you are competing with on most corridors seems a little risky…

He is right in what he is saying; this has been stated to current employees from the McGill's & First management via their app.

 

[overthewater]

I think if they can strip down to what they can actually run they may do well in Livingston. Numbers have definitely been back up recently on all the buses I’ve been on/seen. The X22 for example now seems to pick up a lot at Hermiston P&R, which it never used to.

If they quickly rebrand the fleet at the very least they can shed off the bad rep that First had in the area.

As noted above my concern would be higher fares would put people off when there is competition. First have, despite some people’s perceptions, always been fair in their pricing and have (even pre-Lothian) reduced fares when they could, unfortunately locally they’ve always been compared to Lothian’s flat fare system.

Where McGill’s could do some work is trying to claim back some of the casual passengers in the area. First’s singles have in recent years got very high and people who maybe aren’t as familiar with their day ticket offerings are put off immediately. I know it’s to do with the concessionaire scheme but they maybe need to do something like Stagecoach’s day returns (which I’m some cases in the past was cheaper than their singles)

The other busy service is the 600, but again they have half the route to themselves plus it gives Broxburn passengers the fastest link into Livingston.

It will be interesting to see what McGills do with the Weekly and monthly tickets across the central belt as it's a complete mess at the moments. The Stirling ticket is still one of the most expensive in Scotland at £22 a week for the size of area. Yet if you buy the 3 zone ticket it's only another 3 quid more and you can travel to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

No wonder people in Stirling don't use the bus.

 

[Smithster]

The other busy service is the 600, but again they have half the route to themselves plus it gives Broxburn passengers the fastest link into Livingston.

It will be interesting to see what McGills do with the Weekly and monthly tickets across the central belt as it's a complete mess at the moments. The Stirling ticket is still one of the most expensive in Scotland at £22 a week for the size of area. Yet if you buy the 3 zone ticket it's only another 3 quid more and you can travel to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

No wonder people in Stirling don't use the bus.

The 600s time table needs to be revised, it’s far too tight, it’s just about do-able without any traffic, once traffic appears it’s game over.

 

[wlbusser]

Interested to see what happens in the coming weeks and months.
As a user of the X38 into Edinburgh almost daily and the 600 a fair but then there's a some things I'd like to see happen now McGills are taking over.

1. Keep a fair fare system in place especially for weekly/monthly tickets like the LM cover West Lothian and Edinburgh zones.
Lothians £26 for 5x day tickets to Edinburgh on their X38 vs First's who ended up being £18 for a whole weekly ticket it made it a no brainer for me to choose First.

2. Try to manage the service levels as much as they can given the driver shortage.
At the very least do a better job of making passengers aware of buses that aren't running.
First's app regularly showed buses as LIVE in x minutes or due that weren't running plus the cancellation list regularly didn't show buses that were cancelled, and I get that last minute cancellations happen but surely someone can update their list, as say an X38 starting in Falkirk has a reasonable journey till it reaches Winchburgh/Kirkliston so last minute at the start isn't last minute for some passengers

3. Going forward it would be nice to maintain a consistent fleet especially the X38 who's bus type can vary and it's a lottery (At least it seems that way as more of a general bus user) as to what bus you may be getting on.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

B

Interested to see what happens in the coming weeks and months.
As a user of the X38 into Edinburgh almost daily and the 600 a fair but then there's a some things I'd like to see happen now McGills are taking over.

1. Keep a fair fare system in place especially for weekly/monthly tickets like the LM cover West Lothian and Edinburgh zones.
Lothians £26 for 5x day tickets to Edinburgh on their X38 vs First's who ended up being £18 for a whole weekly ticket it made it a no brainer for me to choose First.

2. Try to manage the service levels as much as they can given the driver shortage.
At the very least do a better job of making passengers aware of buses that aren't running.
First's app regularly showed buses as LIVE in x minutes or due that weren't running plus the cancellation list regularly didn't show buses that were cancelled, and I get that last minute cancellations happen but surely someone can update their list, as say an X38 starting in Falkirk has a reasonable journey till it reaches Winchburgh/Kirkliston so last minute at the start isn't last minute for some passengers

3. Going forward it would be nice to maintain a consistent fleet especially the X38 who's bus type can vary and it's a lottery (At least it seems that way as more of a general bus user) as to what bus you may be getting on.

The X38 will be an interesting one. It needs new buses so I wonder what McGills are thinking. Something electric or possibly Citaros.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Maybe even the new electric Citaro

Personally I'd do a a bit of an interior refurb on some existing midlife stock from the current fleet or stuff they have elsewhere in the group, high back seats, usbs and and perhaps Wi-Fi and and maybe some additional luggage space and use these as a stop gap whilst they play with routes and loadings and timings etcetera. It must be possible 2 to recast some of the the XX numbered routes to get better timings out of some truly arthritic schedules and and once this is done see how popular or not they prove