First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Howardh]

I don't think that would go down very well with the 1st Class passengers.

One of the joys of Virgin is having a day off, and being able to book a cheap(ish) 1st ticket to London and being able to use the rooms. It's almost a day out in itself, topping up with wine and beerz on the train!!

Even if the prices were roughly the same on First as Virgin, if there were no lounges I'd be less likely to buy a ticket for a "day out" - and if I had to go to London I'd probably slum it in second as the visit would be the day out and not the travelling part.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think that would go down very well with the 1st Class passengers.

Of course it wouldn't. Though there are fewer and fewer people purchasing full First Class tickets (which suggests fewer facilities, longer term).

Or maybe "Club Class" passengers would be allowed in?

 

[Aictos]

They'd better!

Why wouldn't they keep them? First operate a 1st Class lounge at Paddington and Edinburgh so what's the problem????

 

[All Line Rover]

One of the joys of Virgin is having a day off, and being able to book a cheap(ish) 1st ticket to London and being able to use the rooms. It's almost a day out in itself, topping up with wine and beerz on the train!!

Even if the prices were roughly the same on First as Virgin, if there were no lounges I'd be less likely to buy a ticket for a "day out" - and if I had to go to London I'd probably slum it in second as the visit would be the day out and not the travelling part.

I agree. It makes travelling an enjoyable experience rather than a necessity to get you to where you want to be. Virgin have failed to capitalise on this, in my opinion. They have not encouraged enough leisure travellers to travel First Class. (In stark contrast to East Coast, which has perhaps gone OTT in this regard!).
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Why wouldn't they keep them? First operate a 1st Class lounge at Paddington and Edinburgh so what's the problem????

I hope they take some inspiration from the Paddington lounge. The best First Class lounge on the network for most of the day (i.e. when a chef is there).

 

[Seacook]

Think First will be keeping the first-class lounges @ Euston and Manchester?

Almost certainly. What bothers me is the fate of the lounges at Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International and Coventry - I have an annual nNetwork pass with the first class supplement giving access to all four.

 

[Mojo]

What is the usage on West Coast's lounges outside London like? With trains from both Birmingham and Manchester now every 20 Min, and only customers of Virgin Trains being allowed to use them, I wonder what the usage is like.

I'm sure in the days of XC being operated by Virgin the use of lounges at places like Birmingham N St was a lot more, although the increase in customer numbers might have outdone this, particularly with customers on Advance tickets who may turn up earlier in case of delays (at least Virgin allow Advance ticket holders access!)

 

[tbtc]

What is the usage on West Coast's lounges outside London like? With trains from both Birmingham and Manchester now every 20 Min, and only customers of Virgin Trains being allowed to use them, I wonder what the usage is like.

I'm sure in the days of XC being operated by Virgin the use of lounges at places like Birmingham N St was a lot more, although the increase in customer numbers might have outdone this, particularly with customers on Advance tickets who may turn up earlier in case of delays (at least Virgin allow Advance ticket holders access!)

Since the turnaround times take a while, I suppose the only people needing to wait long before the departing train arrives at Manchester (etc) are those on cheap advanced tickets that are "train specific". But those people aren't paying the full price anyway.

 

[All Line Rover]

What is the usage on West Coast's lounges outside London like? With trains from both Birmingham and Manchester now every 20 Min, and only customers of Virgin Trains being allowed to use them, I wonder what the usage is like.

I'm sure in the days of XC being operated by Virgin the use of lounges at places like Birmingham N St was a lot more, although the increase in customer numbers might have outdone this, particularly with customers on Advance tickets who may turn up earlier in case of delays (at least Virgin allow Advance ticket holders access!)

Manchester is surprisingly busy. It's quite small (but nice) and during very busy periods Advance ticket holders are occasionally turned away.

Crewe is fairly well used, but most people seem to be either Advance ticket holders or those travelling on cheap VT Only tickets to Manchester. Most of the funding for the Crewe lounge came from the local council (it's called the "Cheshire Lounge"), so I can't imagine it closing any time soon as Cheshire East council would kick up a fuss!

Birmingham New Street has been very quiet on the odd occasion I've used it. The ones in Wolverhampton and Birmingham International have always been empty when I pass by. The ones in Coventry and Stoke generally have one or two people in them (although at Stoke anyone can gain access for £5, which is a bargain if you've got a Standard AP and have a long wait).

Liverpool Lime Street seems to be well used.

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Since the turnaround times take a while, I suppose the only people needing to wait long before the departing train arrives at Manchester (etc) are those on cheap advanced tickets that are "train specific". But those people aren't paying the full price anyway.

You'd be surprised! The FOS is £211.50. Every Manchester train departing Monday-Thursday between 05:55 and 07:55 is £194 for a First AP, no matter how far in advance you book. That probably explains why, when I travelled on some of those services during my ALR, there was an abundance of empty tables for me to sit at when departing from Crewe (which is the last stop before London Euston).

 

[bnm]

Name me an ISP or phone/TV provider that doesn't have thousands of horror stories attached to it.

BE Broadband (owned by O2, the least complained about mobile provider) and Primus Telecom

 

[snail]

If she hasn't already, when does Justine Greening sign the new First franchise ?

When the Judicial Review is completed.

 

[Badger]

Wolverhampton's is in entirely the wrong place. The only Virgin trains from platform 4 are to New Street, 15 minutes away. If it was by the entrance it would have the Scotland services or at least be on the way to the Euston train. Surprised anyone goes out of their way to it when services are only hourly.

 

[Manchester77]

I dunno if it's been mentioned before but what happens if the review takes so long that it overruns past the end of the current franchise? Do virgin get an extension or does DoR take over until the review is complete?
Thanks
M77

 

[dvboy]

The problem is the size of the train.
First would operate 221s, so unless you accept single-car working Wolverhampton to Euston, they are going to have to divide/attach somewhere (maybe twice on some circuits).

Virgin operating mini-Pendos and locos would have the same problem (although 6-car trains might mean less/no doubling up).
Add in the loco and you have a pretty complicated set of workings, with Crewe-Chester-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton being the simplest for locos.
But you still have the dilemma of the same 6-car Pendolino potentially calling at both Chirk and Coventry: too much for one and too little for the other.

I'm not convinced about the practicability of either proposal without knowing the timetable.

Divide a double Voyager at Wolverhampton. Send one half round one way and the other half round the other, and meet at Wolverhampton. Simples.

Probably not so simple really.

 

[spyontheinside]

The review is expected to be around 2 weeks in length, wont be longer than that. The result will still be the same, it may just answer a few questions which VT have previously not been told by the DFT.

Its interesting how a lot of staff which previously had contracts upto 8th DEC have been given full time, so called 'permanent' contracts, and this was AFTER the DFT announced First as the new owners. Tactical move perhaps?

The only thing to come out of this review will be a change of how further franchises are awarded. This is done and dusted and Tony Collins knows it.

First intend in keeping the 1st Class lounges and amongst their wish list of future changes want to add more, like Preston for example.

I personally can't see First handing back the keys in 10 years. They would let something else go instead. If First ever lost the WCML by default/handing back the keys, they are gone!

 

[dvboy]

Wolverhampton's is in entirely the wrong place. The only Virgin trains from platform 4 are to New Street, 15 minutes away. If it was by the entrance it would have the Scotland services or at least be on the way to the Euston train. Surprised anyone goes out of their way to it when services are only hourly.

The first few in the morning go from 4, having come out of Oxley but from 8:45 (I think) they run from 2.

No-one is going to hang around in the lounge before a New Street train when they could get on an earlier service and be in Birmingham sooner (albeit most likely in Standard class). I have never seen anyone in it.

Hopefully when they fully redo the concourse at Wolverhampton, they'll put the lounge on Platform 1. There is already a well under-used waiting room on Platform 1 anyway but it is just not up to the standard of the one of Platform 4.

 

[table38]

Buried away in the back pages of our favourite newspaper:

Firstgroup, which has won the disputed West Coast main line rail franchise, has been told by the Government to go ahead with its plans to run the service from December 9.

The instruction late last week to prepare as normal despite a legal challenge from Virgin Trains reveals the Department for Transport's confidence that it will win the battle.

But despite Branson's campaign, presenting his company as having been the underdog, questions are being asked over his real motives, with suggestions that wanting to retain a £20billion business that made £381.7million of profits in the last ten years could be the real reason.

Last year Virgin Trains made a £24million profit. This year it is expected to be £29million.

Analysts believe that Virgin Trains' profit margins of 6.6 per cent are the highest in the industry.

They say FirstGroup was able to win the franchise because it had lower margins and was willing to give more to the taxpayer - £1.2billion - compared with £700million from Virgin Trains.

Online here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/markets/article-2197084/FirstGroup-told-ignore-Bransons-campaign-review.html#ixzz25L96cdJ6

 

[All Line Rover]

First intend in keeping the 1st Class lounges and amongst their wish list of future changes want to add more, like Preston for example.

That's good to hear. It seems pretty obvious to me that First intend to maintain the WCML as a "premier" railway line in a bid to attract more customers, whilst cutting costs (non-inflation-busting salaries) and raising revenue (ticket gates, additional stops, additional classes) where doing so does not impact the quality of service. I sincerely hope such a strategy will work!

 

[tbtc]

Buried away in the back pages of our favourite newspaper:

Online here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/markets/article-2197084/FirstGroup-told-ignore-Bransons-campaign-review.html#ixzz25L96cdJ6

First the story about the MMR charlatans, now this... I'm in danger of changing my opinion about the Daily Mail based on today's performance!

 

[Mojo]

''Analysts believe that Virgin Trains' profit margins of 6.6 per cent are the highest in the industry.'' I think that says it all...

 

[WatcherZero]

''Analysts believe that Virgin Trains' profit margins of 6.6 per cent are the highest in the industry.'' I think that says it all...

From a story that claims the franchise premiums for Virgin is just £700m and First is just £1.2bn?

 

[junglejames]

I was just explaining why it does. Perhaps my explanation needed to be clearer, or maybe you'd like to re-read?

Do they have enough slack in their fleet then? Even with better fleet availability.
Whatever the case, to run any extra services at all, they would be pushing themselves. Even with the 4 extra units just arriving. Perhaps they could just do it, but id expect more delays than at present.

 

[Pen Mill]

''Analysts believe that Virgin Trains' profit margins of 6.6 per cent are the highest in the industry.'' I think that says it all...

That's why it's been desparation stakes to try to protect them , I think.

Any tactic will do

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Birmingham New Street has been very quiet on the odd occasion I've used it. The ones in Wolverhampton and Birmingham International have always been empty when I pass by. The ones in Coventry and Stoke generally have one or two people in them (although at Stoke anyone can gain access for £5, which is a bargain if you've got a Standard AP and have a long wait).

OK, you've piqued my curiosity enough to ask. What's in the first class lounges that makes them so good?

 

[calc7]

OK, you've piqued my curiosity enough to ask. What's in the first class lounges that makes them so good?

Warm, comfy seating, lesser chance of being plagued by social flotsam, WiFi, fax machines (in some) and complimentary soft drinks and snacks.

 

[Wath Yard]

As with free sausages on the trains I'd be interested to know how many passengers 1st class lounges actually attract to the railway or how many they persuade to upgrade to a 1st class (not Advance) ticket. My guess is not many and they are simply nice to haves.

 

[All Line Rover]

Warm, comfy seating, lesser chance of being plagued by social flotsam, WiFi, fax machines (in some) and complimentary soft drinks and snacks.

And, bar Euston, clean loos! A rarity in certain railway stations (*cough* Crewe *cough*).

 

[WestCoast]

As with free sausages on the trains I'd be interested to know how many passengers 1st class lounges actually attract to the railway or how many they persuade to upgrade to a 1st class (not Advance) ticket. My guess is not many and they are simply nice to haves.

I tend to agree. The concept of a lounge came from airports, where even time stretched business travellers have a certain amount of time to spare in the terminal.

If you're running trains every 20 minutes on the core routes, passengers holding flexible walk-up First class tickets have likely purchased their ticket for the convenience of turning up shortly before a departure (whichever one that may be). Therefore, the lounge is of little value.

However, there will be first class business travellers who do have spare time for whatever reason, as well as leisure travellers. That's why FC lounges exist and it does appeal to this market segment.

The thing about Virgin's lounges is that the offering is rather inconsistent. I mean Stoke-on-Trent and Runcorn get lounges, but Preston and Carlisle don't?

 

[ainsworth74]

I mean Stoke-on-Trent and Runcorn get lounges, but Preston and Carlisle don't?

Or even Glasgow!

 

[jon0844]

It's a very good point about the time people will likely want or need to spend in a lounge when you have services running so frequently. You might have time to kill and decide to skip some trains than arrive early, but then you'd always fear the next train is delayed or cancelled and probably go anyway!

I'd expect that many business travellers by air still book a specific flight and know how much time they have (and lounges at airports are still usually much better than at train stations) but for rail there's a good chance many will have flexible tickets.

It seems to me that the lounge could therefore be used by people who can upgrade to First, simply pay for the lounge as a fixed fee, or a leisure first/club class type offering that keeps the lounge used all day (but hopefully not too crowded!) which would make them more viable and worthy of keeping open and maintaining.

 

[HH]

Do they have enough slack in their fleet then? Even with better fleet availability.

Whatever the case, to run any extra services at all, they would be pushing themselves. Even with the 4 extra units just arriving. Perhaps they could just do it, but id expect more delays than at present.

Performance is clearly a risk, but you should be able to run more trains based on tighter timetables and increased availability. I wouldn't be surprised if Virgin had been 'sandbagging' the TT in order to have a competitive advantage in the bidding process.